S74 Research

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

I'm doing some research on the S74 silks, both colored and white issues.

Need some help confirming the baseball players that are found with the very rare RED SUN backs. After going through old auction catalogs, I have confirmed the following players can be found with this rare back: Barger, Byrne, Camnitz, Cobb, Crandall, Evers, and Marquard.

Please let me know if anyone has examples of other players with this RED SUN back. In additon, rumor has it that a HELMAR back also exists, however, I have yet to see any proof of this back in the baseball series of S74.

Thanks for any assistance, Patrick

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

Received an email from my friend Jim, who also collects the actress series as well as the baseball players, and he had some additions to the list of baseball players with S74 Red Suns Backs.

The updated list now includes the following baseball players: Cy Barger, Beals Becker, Robert Byrne, Camnitz, Fred Clarke, Ty Cobb, Doc Crandall, Johnny Evers, Rube Marquard, Fred Merkle, Thomas Needham, Rebel Oakes, Harry Steinfeldt, and Ed Willett.

He also has heard the rumors of the Helmar back, but has yet to see one.

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Posted By: jay behrens

THe only Red Sun back I ever owned was a Chief Meyer, but I no longer have it.

Jay

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Posted By: Jim Goodrich

Sorry for the mess-up Patrick but I was not able to find the Merkle. Should it surface I'll let you know. No problem with the others, scans are headed your way. A quick sidenote....the two 'blue ink' silks, Camnitz and Willett, have not been folded. The brown and red ink pieces have.

Jim

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

I received two wonderful emails from a lurker, who has been collecting S74s for 35 years. Not only has he confirmed additional players with Red Sun Backs, but he also owns a Helmar Back S74 of Mattern of the Rustlers. Even more exciting, he owns a S74 printers proof!

"They are printed on colored material and attached to a blank cardboard backing. All also have the sort of printer's proof lines in the margins that are otherwise characteristic of lithographed issues."

"What convinces me of their authenticity as printer's proofs is the fact that one depicts Kling with the Cubs, as he was pictured in T205. Kling was then traded to Boston. He does not appear in the earlier backed white set at all, and appears in the later unbacked colored set only with Boston. I've never seen nor heard even a rumor of any S74, from either set showing Kling with the Cubs."

"Quite plainly, the printer was experimenting with ways to print and produce baseball player pictures on cloth!"

Wow! That's the kind of information that makes this forum "One-of-a kind."

For those of you keeping score at home, here is the updated "confirmed" list of Red Sun back so far:

Cy Barger, Beals Becker, Robert Byrne, Camnitz, Fred Clarke, Ty Cobb, Doc Crandall, Art Devlin, Johnny Evers, Rube Marquard, Ambrose McConnell,Thomas Needham, Rebel Oakes, Reulbach, Admiral Schlei, Harry Steinfeldt, and Ed Willett.

Please keep the info coming! Many thanks to the gentleman who have shared their knowledge with me so far.

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Posted By: dstudeba

Hi Patrick,

I don't know if you are still interested in these, but I can add Dooin to the Red Sun backs.

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Posted By: andy becker

hi guys,
nice thread patrick!

i also agree with jim's finding that the red sun blue ink fronts are not folded. and that red suns with maroon ink are folded.
i find that very interesting from a distribution standpoint.
any thoughts?

also, i have not seen a red sun back with a black ink front. corrected below, i really need better lighting in my office

patrick, could we break down the red sun silks that are confirmed by ink color on the front? i will add my examples to this thread tonight.

i can also confirm that helmar back silks do exist with baseball players. and that the helmar example i have was also folded.

other than the two helmar silks mentioned in this thread, i have never heard of another. can anyone else confirm a helmar baseball silk?

i assume that helmar only offered the silk premiums for a very short time, otherwise i think a few more would have survived.

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Posted By: andy becker

these can be added to the master list....
-deacon phillippe
-kid elberfield

breakdown.....

maroon (folded):
-deacon phillippe
-kid elberfield
-harry steinfeldt
-rebel oakes
-tom needham
-fred clarke
-red dooin

black (folded)
-beals becker

blue (not folded):
-ty cobb
-howie camnitz
-ed willett

i would like to hear some other collectors break down their red suns by color and fold, perhaps we can draw some conclusions as to print runs.

any post or emails would be greatly appreciated.