1940 Play Ball "Color Proofs" finally graded!

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Counts

I came across a small lot of 1940 Play Balls at last weekend's Tri-Star show. I now some of you will cringe, and I realize they're not worth much, but I think they're pretty cool. What really amazes me is how much effort somebody put into colorizing them with what appears to be watercolor paint. I'm curious when the anonymous artist did his handiwork. I'm guessing because the cards are in such nice shape they were colorized back in 1940. Has anybody else seen anything like this?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

They sure are pretty!

Too bad they didn't come that way -- look much better than the plain B&W.

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

In a 12/04 auction, a pair of "colorized proofs" of Van Mungo and Daffy Dean, authenticated by SGC, sold for $2,221 in Excellent. The Standard Catalog carries a listing for them. These may be from the same test batch.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Way to go, Chris!

Send them in to SGC and get them slabbed... and you may have made a very wise purchase!!

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Posted By: andy becker

way to go bob!!
i knew i had seen these before....just wasn't sure which auction.

chris, your cards look exactly (from memory) the same as the sgc graded cards did.

congrats on a very neat pick up! please let us know if these were issued with color.
regards

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Posted By: dd

Great looking cards and a nice pick-up regardless of value.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

I have an update on the plight of my colorized Play Balls ... About three weeks ago I sent two of the cards — a Buddy Hassett and a Whitey Moore — to GAI for authentication. Since then I have been in regular contact with Danny and Mike at GAI. Last weekend, the two cards travelled to the Philly show with GAI. Mike told me he showed the cards to a number of collectors, and the feedback was very encouraging. He even told me Alan Rosen — Mr. Mint — gave them his thumbs-up. He added that not only has SCG graded a couple, but so has PSA. But Mike said he didn't want to rush into grading them, and he wanted to take a little time and get as much feedback as possible, which seems very reasonable to me. I let him know I would be providing updates on the Vintage Baseball Card Forum, and I would be seeking more feedback as well.

Over the past two months, I have looked at these cards so many times I'm going cross-eyed. No matter how much I magnify the cards, I can't see any evidence that the color has been added after the printing process. And even it if were, I can't believe it is possible to achieve the detail these cards exhibit at the scale of a 1940 Play Ball card. It appears to me the color was added to a larger image, perhaps a standard 8x10 inch black and white photo. And even at high magnification, I can't find one drop of misplaced ink on any of the seven cards. I would think if someone hand-colored them after they were printed, the artwork wouldn't be so precise. Perhaps most remarkable is the simple fact Play Ball switched to color the following year.

As you can imagine, I am very curious what everybody on this board thinks. I'll post more of the cards later. Any feedback is greatly appreciated ...

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Posted By: leon

I sort of think that with all of the printing experts on the board, and the test equipment that is used today, these could be unequivocally id'd/authenticated. Our very own Dr.Rudd should probably be able to perform an analysis to see if the dot patterns etc...are commensurate with 1940 printing. regards

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Does anybody on the board have Dr. Rudd's email address? Also, I'm curious how many series the 1940 Play Ball set was issued in. While most of the colorized cards are low numbers, Whitey Moore is #150, which I'm guessing would put him in the third series. Finally, I'd love to hear from anybody who has one of these cards ... Thanks, Chris

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Posted By: Larry

Since my real job is a paint coatings engineer with 30+ years experience, it should be noted that color fast inks were used during color processes of most baseball cards that have colorization... specifically if it was done at the Play Ball printing processing center. If watercolor or gouache was used after the fact, the color would run, since acrylics were not invented at this time, a simple test would be to wet the card and if the inks do not run, then it is most likely this is a factory test issue and quite impressive..hope this helps..

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Posted By: Chris Counts

I've actually considered soaking one. I did it to several '41 Play Balls I found glued to scrapbook pages and the cards survived remarkably well. But I think I'll only do it as a last resort ...

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Posted By: peter ullman

those look awesome...look genuine to me. i'd think a black light would tell if color was added?

pete in mn

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Here's the lastest on the plight of my "colorized" 1940 Play Balls. Global Authentication notified me today they don't "feel comfortable" grading them. I'm not sure what this means, but it seems less than definitive, so I intend to keep seeking opinions on the cards' authenticity. I've received a tremendous amount of feedback from collectors, most of it positive, but none of it concrete ...

At this point, I'm willing to sacrifice one card to the cause. It seems logical to me that submerging one of cards in water or some other solution could reveal whether the color was part of the printing process or was added later. Since I've soaked Play Balls out of a scrapbook previously, damage to the card will likely be minimal. Unless, of course, it's streaked with watercolors. But then I would have my answer, and I've only ruined a $5 card ...

If someone on this board has a better idea, I'd welcome hearing from you ...

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Posted By: Sean

Have you tried the SGC route? If they have graded similar cards before they might know what to be looking for.

SeanBH

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Posted By: Chris Counts

I called SGC this morning and I'm waiting to hear back from them. While I have been told by a couple collectors they have graded two of these cards, they have yet to confirm it ...

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Here's the latest on the plight of my 1940 Play Ball "color" cards. I took them to the National and submitted them to SGC. Just like my experience with GAI, I received nothing but postive feedback until the cards were returned ... ungraded and without any explanation (does this qualify as a rejection?). But here's the really frustrating part, just a few tables away I found a 1940 Play Ball "Color Proof" of Carl Hubbell (for $8,000) ... graded by SGC!!! I pointed this out to them, and they agreed to take one of them back to New Jersey and reconsider grading it. By the way, I showed the cards to at least two dozen vintage dealers, plus a handful of guys from Mastro, and just about everybody said they believed the cards were legit, and many were very emphatic about it. Several made comments that I wouldn't have any trouble getting them graded if I was a well known dealer ... By the way, one of the guys from Mastro told me a couple of cards like mine surfaced in a collection that hadn't been touched since the early 60s, eliminating the possibility the color had been added in recent years ...

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Posted By: Paul

I thought all of the grading companies used a blind grading system. How can it matter who submits the card?

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Posted By: Chris Counts

One of the SGC guys told me they previously graded several of these cards "as a favor" to someone. He said "It is no longer our policy to grade things like this." After I pleaded with him, he agreed to take a second look, but made no assurances. He said they would let me know in the next couple days if they would grade it ...

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Posted By: Soren Agard

Is there anyway you can add the scans to the top of the post again?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Ah, innocence. Touching in this day and age.

The fact is that a well-reputed expert collector or experienced dealer's submissions are treated differently. Note that I did not say graded differently, only treated differently. A grader from one of the big services told me flat out that when someone with some hobby stature submits something they've not seen before, they are inclined to take his word that it is what it is because that is who they would call if they had a question anyway. Take the same card and have Joe Blow submit it and it will not be graded.

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Posted By: Paul

I apologize for not being clearer with my sarcasm. I also see no one has taken a whack at the softball I threw up there with the phrase "blind grading."

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Call me naive, but what would be the incentive for a grading company to avoid authenticating something like my cards? I can see why they might want to stay on the good side of major dealers and auction houses, but it would seem to me that grading cards like these would be a win-win situation for any company trying to establish itself as the expert in the industry. Perhaps they're just trying to avoid controversy and playing it safe ...

Anyway, I posted the Demaree card tonight. In my opinion, it's the card in the batch of seven that is the most impressive. This is the card SGC currently has in its possession. I challenge anyone to explain to me how the color was added at this scale, which I believe is simply too small for the human hand to achieve with this degree of detail. It is my theory the color was added to a large, glossy photo (8x10, 5x7?) and the image was reduced to the size of a card before it was printed ...

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Chris: if you want these cards graded so that you can sell them, an auction house would likely be able to accomplish that, and also give you tremendous exposure.

You do not need them graded for your own assurance, you have determined that the colorization precision exceeds what can be accomplished by an artist and brush.

There is no call to wet your cards, but no reason to avoid it either. However, even if you were to wet the cards, it seems to me that the grading companys would continue to (I agree why would they blackball you) hesitate to move on your request for authentication as unaltered cards.

I don't know. Is there a good old boys network of preferred dealers/auction houses/grading companies which disallows individuals from coming up with a "find" like this?

"It is not actually paranoia if everyone really is conspiring against you" - Dr. No.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Finally, six months after acquiring my seven 1940 Play Ball "Proofs," I received a graded card in the mail! After all the effort, it feels a bit like Christmas in August ...

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Posted By: Zach S.

Really cool proofs, Chris. Glad to hear they finally graded at least one of them and you posted it (for some reason the original pic you posted wouldn't load for me). Is SGC going to grade any of the others now? Also, do you plan on keeping the whole lot or selling off some?

Zach S.
zsmith@as39.navy.mil

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Posted By: jay behrens

I can relate to your feeling. It wasn't easy getting my the e90-3 Hofman (Hofnlan) card recognized and slabbed by SGC, but in the end, all the work was very reward on more than just a monetary level.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

[obcmac]

Does anyone own one of these? I'd like to see some pictures!

Mac

[CobbSpikedMe]

Hi Mac,

Not sure if these are what were being discussed previously, but I saved these images of some colorized 1940 Play Balls a while back.

.

[LuckyLarry]

Mac I own a '39 PB "colorized" card:

[ullmandds]

i love those "colorized" cards...they're cooool!

[CobbSpikedMe]

I've shown this before, but I really like this one so I thought I'd share it again. My colorized W572.


.

[Chris Counts]

I'm not sure what happened to the scan I posted 13 years ago, but here it is again. The Frey pictured above is also mine, but only the Demaree has been graded.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Chris: if you want these cards graded so that you can sell them, an auction house would likely be able to accomplish that, and also give you tremendous exposure.

You do not need them graded for your own assurance, you have determined that the colorization precision exceeds what can be accomplished by an artist and brush.

There is no call to wet your cards, but no reason to avoid it either. However, even if you were to wet the cards, it seems to me that the grading companys would continue to (I agree why would they blackball you) hesitate to move on your request for authentication as unaltered cards.

I don't know. Is there a good old boys network of preferred dealers/auction houses/grading companies which disallows individuals from coming up with a "find" like this?

"It is not actually paranoia if everyone really is conspiring against you" - Dr. No.

Is there preferable treatment given to Auction Houses by grading companies? I'd say yes -and I was able to prove it in November of last year when SGC refused to authenticate a card owned by Buck Barker, who happened to have written his notes on the back of the card. SGC told me that they aren't experts in handwriting analysis, and don't have the capabilities of doing so. Surprising really, since they do authenticate autographs. When confronted with documented evidence and a card of Lionel Carter's which they did authenticate by way of Doug Allen, the grader didnt know what to say.All I can say is that it appears to be pay to play between the grading companies and Auction Houses and how much money you have. That might help explain why some of them are graded.

I can understand if the grading companies or grader might not be comfortable depending if their knowledge is indeed limited. However, there are tests that they could do very easily to determine if the colorization process was done at the printer or by Moll's Ad Agency or by someone else entirely?

[obcmac]

Just got this one off ebay. Doesn't look like the legit one that Chris posted, but some pretty neat after market work.

Mac

[Chris Counts]

Mac, I saw that batch turn up on eBay recently and decided to pass. I saw a bunch of folks chasing the Ruffing, but none of the cards looked good to me. On the ones I have, or had, all the color except red is applied very precisely. If you look at the blue on the socks of Demaree, there's no color that spreads beyond the edge of the socks.

Curiously, because of the batch I found 13 years ago, my brother has kept an eye out for these on eBay, and he actually managed to find one: a colorized 1940 of Bill McKechnie.