Slight OT - why is vintage (pre 1950ish) Basketball so cheap

[Jason19th]

For the last couple of months I have started to collect early basketball cards. I have been struck by just how cheap they are compared to baseball of similar player status and card rarity. While I wouldn’t have expected the basketball to equal baseball, I was surprised just how cheap some very important low pop cards were. Is it just that the game is just too different then the one played in the 40’s and 50’s. Is it that NBA fans are not historically inclined. Is it that stats and hall of fame election have not been as celebrated in basketball. Below are a number of cards I picked up recently. Most of these cards have pops under 100 and the Olympic cards have pops under 20
1933 Sport Kings Ed Wachter- an early HoFer from a famous set
1936. pet Cremer and 1936 Franck cards of the 1936 Olympic Team. Both cards feature Joe Fortenberry who was a pre-nba superstar and is thought to have been the first player to dunk. Both cards are German issued
1948 Kelloggs Pep Rookie of George Mikan- a card much rarer then his 48 Bowman
1952 Kiosmos Olympic card of Clyde Lovelette - who was the first player to win ncaa, Olympics and nba title

[G1911]

There is little to no interest today in basketball outside of living memory.

Lack of publicly recognized names today from guys before major sets came around.

Lack of major sets dedicated to basketball.

Lack of aesthetic, colorful sets (black and white is less popular on the whole).

[Peter_Spaeth]

In baseball, pre-war players are considered as great if not greater than modern.

In basketball, players of that era are considered to be far far inferior. Nobody's picking even Mikan for their all time team, let alone the lesser lights of his era.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In baseball, pre-war players are considered as great if not greater than modern.

In basketball, players of that era are considered to be far far inferior. Nobody's picking even Mikan for their all time team, let alone the lesser lights of his era.

Good point Peter,
I also think basketball folks aren't historically inclined like the other 3 sports.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by G1911

There is little to no interest today in basketball outside of living memory.

Lack of publicly recognized names today from guys before major sets came around.

Lack of major sets dedicated to basketball.

Lack of aesthetic, colorful sets (black and white is less popular on the whole).

Exactly.

[bigfanNY]

Basketball did take a long time to develop a pro leauge. With the NBA formed in 1949. Baseball Football and Hockey all have longer pro History.
But Basketball at all levels attracted Gamblers and scandels followed the sport into the 50's. Early pro Basketball played in a cage. Surrounded by fans who would take any opportunity to hurt players on opposing teams. Not exactly a family environment.
But it was a different game after the war. The NCAA tournament started in 1936 and the NIT in 1938, both gave a huge boost to college hoops. And although the point shaving scandals hurt the newly formed NBA suspended for life guilty players in 51-52. After that growth was slow and regional. Boston Philly New York always had lots of basketball fans. Miken the games brightest star played in Minnesota. The Boston Dynasty was great but hated by many (NY Phila, then SF and LA). Michael Jordan grew the game and it has kept on growing.
So Basketball dose have an interesting history and is fun to collect. For myself most of my collection was built around Philadelphia basketball. Warriors Sixers then Spha's as I grew back. With a focus on BAA NBL and NBA championships. And anything pre 1930 I could get my hands on. Not sure if early basketball will ever take off but for now it is fun to collect.
I would also argue that early Celtics items from the mid 20's to mid 30's although only represented on a few cards. Those cards and the memorabilia from those teams is very desirable and collectable. But so scarce that it is tough to build a hobby around.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Good point Peter,
I also think basketball folks aren't historically inclined like the other 3 sports.

Have to confess, I've been in and out of baseball fandom at different points in my life and the first time I heard Mikan's name was on this board a few years ago.

I've seen the crack a few times that many of the hoops players in the old days were firemen and plumbers. Untrue and insulting, but does reflect the sentiment among many fans today.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Good point Peter,
I also think basketball folks aren't historically inclined like the other 3 sports.

This here, as a vintage basketball collector I enjoy it. However, the truth is that other than about 20 players, most fade quickly from collectors brains shortly after retirement.

There is little respect of the history of game and a playground mentality that newer is better when if the Jordan rules and their modern kin were removed the 90's Clippers could win a championship in the soft game of today.

I really don't see this changing anytime soon, investment in vintage basketball is a fools errand...but I am that fool. lol.

[rjackson44]

go buy 68 topps test issues scotts potato chips and key rookies .tell me where i can find them cheap

[Exhibitman]

Vintage (pre-1989) investment = Mikan, Russell, Chamberlain, Alcindor/Jabbar, Magic, Bird, Jordan, West, Baylor, Robertson, Erving, and the better key rookies every year.

IMO the main thing that depresses basketball cards (except for the investment ones) is how few cards there are to collect. From 1948-1968, there were three mainstream sets: 1948 Bowman (72 cards), 1957 Topps (80 cards), 1961 Fleer (66 cards). That's it for 20 years. Putting them together is expensive AF because of the rookies and 2nd year cards (you're lucky to get a beater 1957 Russell for under $5K) but assuming the money is not an issue, you are done with just over 200 cards. Even hockey has many more mainstream issues. That leaves a variety of team issues, regional issues and one-off issues in multisport and foreign sets, many of which are uncatalogued or under-catalogued, and many of which are HTF or downright rare. Some are really cool cards:





But many are ridiculously rare so you stumble on them rather than plan to collect them. It is a fun but slow and challenging pursuit.

The dearth of mainstream and rarity of regionals also makes rookie cards difficult to assess. Case in point: Jerry West. The actual logo man. 1961 Fleer, right? Nope. 1960 Kahn's and 1960 Los Angeles Examiner, and 1961 Bell. Finding the Kahn's, very, very tough. Finding the last two, impossible. Alcinor/Kareem: 1969 Topps. Or is it 1968 Mira Tuttosport (very tough). Jordan: 1986 Fleer? Well, several 1984 and 1985 Star issues (est. 2500 legit sets made)



and 1985 Merchante Spanish issue (same as the Magic below; not that tough except in unstuck form--meant for albums--but tiny pop compared to mainstream), and also a 1983 ACC board game issue (rare).

There are also foreign cards that fill in the wide gaps in domestic issues, but these also are hard to find and not well understood.




Another factor is lack of cataloguing and readily digested and updated encyclopedias. I had to buy an old OOP Sanchez magazine guide simply to get checklists of some of the regional issues. Many of them simply are not catalogued, so you have to have some researcher in you to collect and even then you may find yourself at a dead end or making conclusions from context and materials. Take this one:



Wilt Chamberlain PC sized photo card. The image is taken from a team photo session that yielded one of his team issue publicity photos ca. 1962-1965. It is literally the same shot, just from a split second earlier. But if I didn't know what I was looking at because I had the TI, I wouldn't have known what this was when it popped up. That lack of information and rarity depresses price relative to the mainstream issues and even the better-understood foreign issues. That is ending but it is still a field ripe for systematic analysis, cataloguing, and potential profit.

[53toppscollector]

The interesting thing is that I think basketball's popularity has increased pretty substantially in the last decade, not just in the US, but globally. However, if we think about that in the context of the history of the sport, the increase in popularity is in guys like Lebron and Luka. For younger kids who never saw Jordan play, he is a mythical figure. At this point, even Kobe is probably a mythical figure for a lot of younger fans of basketball. Someone's fandom needs to really grow and develop for them to want to care about the history of the game, and that usually takes time. I'm sure that vintage basketball will eventually see a rise in prices, beyond just the Bird/Magic rookie and Wilt rookies. But it will take time.

There probably aren't many 18-22 year olds collecting George Mikan cards. Likewise, I doubt there are a ton of under 25 collectors who are focused primarily on pre-war baseball.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rjackson44

go buy 68 topps test issues scotts potato chips and key rookies .tell me where i can find them cheap

The 1950 Mikan is a great piece IMO.

[Fwoodford_34]

GREAT THREAD! As a vintage basketball collector this is an interesting point made - I do agree that there is a great deal of affordable vintage basketball - but also interesting how expensive some of the oddball vintage cards can get. You have Khan’s Jerry West and Oscar Robertson - Scott’s Potato Chips…. Bread for Health and Bread for Energy and Royal Desserts. Or you have vintage basketball that is so rare it’s nearly impossible to find: Bell Brand Lakers, Examiner Lakers, Menko Mikan, Scott’s Mikan, Auerbach Safe-T-Cards…

Very interesting thread!

[Exhibitman]

That Clifton looks familiar. For those who don't know, that 'pog' (actually called a "chapita") is from Argentina and is a very early card of HOFer Nat Clifton.

[Jewish-collector]

I am a long time collector of basketball cards, memorabilia, publications, and autographs. The modern sports card boom at the beginning of the pandemic has trickled into vintage basketball cards somewhat and historic basketball memorabilia (like this 1966 NCAA finals ticket stub Texas Western vs Kentucky (Glory Road movie) ticket stub) have started to get very desirable and, as a result very expensive.

1966 Texas Western vs Kentucky ticket stub.jpg

[Leon]

Great cards, guys.
Valuation is all about demand....I wish it had to do with rarity...
.

[rjackson44]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The 1950 Mikan is a great piece IMO.

Museum quality thx peter

[bigfanNY]

I think it is ironic that so many of the pictures of items posted in this thread about pre 1950 basketball items are from 1950 and later. Say the words vintage basketball and the majority of people think Dr.J or Wilt or Cousey or even Miken. Now Miken played about half his pro career before 1950 and half after. But there are many more Miken items post 1950 than before 1950. So addressing the OP very few people have interest in the Amateur and pro leauges not associated with the NBA. So that is why demand is so thin. Combined with how few items survived and it is difficult to build a broad based hobby like that around baseball. Fact is Baseball cards have been a pursuit of Boys ( of all ages) since the 1880's basketball cards could not get a steady hold until 1986.

Below are 2 type 1 photos of 1926 Clevland Rosenblum's
Stars Joe Lapchick and Pete Barry. More famous for their exploits as Original Celtics.

[Exhibitman]

Part of the issue is that the collegiate game was so important before and right after WWII, far more than the pros. Not a lot of stuff to commemorate those teams and players. My father was a huge fan as a teenager and was thrilled years ago to meet St. Johns and NIT legend Harry Boykoff at a car wash here in L.A. When he told me the name I had to look him up.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Part of the issue is that the collegiate game was so important before and right after WWII, far more than the pros. Not a lot of stuff to commemorate those teams and players. My father was a huge fan as a teenager and was thrilled years ago to meet St. Johns and NIT legend Harry Boykoff at a car wash here in L.A. When he told me the name I had to look him up.

Also played for the Celtics. I remember getting him TTM in the 1990's.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Also played for the Celtics. I remember getting him TTM in the 1990's.

Boykoff on a 1950-51 Celtics over.

[rjackson44]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The 1950 Mikan is a great piece IMO.

You think peter