Modern day Helmar cards--will they gain in value?

[GregMitch34]

I asked the same question earlier but it is buried in a thread on the new Helmar magazine so I don't expect many replies. I am just wondering if people think the Helmars--the nicer ones, at least--will go up in value in years ahead, even just 10 percent, or there's very little chance of that since they are not "vintage." Yes, I realize, you can't say for sure about ANY cards but I wonder what the opinions might be on these sort of unique cards.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I would say no, they are just amazing novelty cards.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Econteachert205]

That's a good question, do they have catalog distinction? Is there definitive print run and set info on them? If they were / are part of the cataloging system I would think player run collectors would want/need them. I like the art, not a huge fan of the distressed look.

[ls7plus]

No.

Larry

[EvilKing00]

I wouldnt buy them

[sirraffles]

I do what I do because I find it satisfying, sometimes amusing, and it allows me a modest income. There is no desire to become the next Upper Deck (no one needs that) but I am a bit ambitious in that I like to share what I am doing and what interests me. Hence the magazine, which talks about the old-time players and yes, my cards. You'll find, though, that the magazine mostly uses the cards to illustrate the stories. If it is a "sales job" it is pretty discrete and I tried hard not to allow them to be a distraction from the baseball history focus, but a compliment.

From time to time, not really very often, someone will ask what I think about the future values of Helmar cards. I don't put much thought into it because I'll be long dead and those values are best left to those that come after me, and after us. I do know that people don't purchase them in order to throw them out.

But to entertain your question, let's say for a moment that a watch collector comes across a box of well-made, interesting watches made 80 or 100 years ago. They were not made in a huge Sieko-type factory but, instead, they were made by some small craftsman/company under modest circumstances. Only a handful of each style were made. Would the collector be interested? I would think so, and I think that he would believe that they had some value.

Charles Mandel

[glchen]

No, they will not go up in value. For most cards to have value, they need to be issued during the player's playing days. If not, then the card needs to be part of a major set (e.g., Topps) or contained game used memorabilia or autos. Helmar cards fit none of these criteria.

[bbcard1]

Modern day Broders.

[ullmandds]

I think the values will deteriorate over time personally.

[ullmandds]

not to say I do not like the product...I do! they are very creatively done and are cool...and blow away the knockoffs...but not a good financial investment, imo...and not for me.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by glchen

No, they will not go up in value. For most cards to have value, they need to be issued during the player's playing days. If not, then the card needs to be part of a major set (e.g., Topps) or contained game used memorabilia or autos. Helmar cards fit none of these criteria.

Not necessarily true in all instances. The Laughlin cards from the 1970's of the Negro League players have appreciated substantially in value over the years.

To C

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think these are very well done but in the end they are just fantasy cards and I am skeptical that they will appreciate in value.

[packs]

I like the artwork a lot but I can't see spending more than a few dollars on them. Most of the players featured have cards issued during their playing careers. For players who didn't have many cards, I could see there being a premium. But I can't see a Helmar card retaining more value than a card issued during a career.

[iwantitiwinit]

No chance. Simple rules of economics, low demand combined with at a minimum adequate supply equals falling prices.

[Chris Counts]

No. They're beautiful cards, but as long we don't how many of each can be printed, collectors will never take them seriously.

[sirraffles]

Those are good criticisms and put me in an awkward position. I find myself wanting to argue that Helmar cards have a high investment potential when I've already said, correctly, that no one knows. Maybe that impulse is my well-known contrarian nature speaking or maybe a little bit of ego. Probably both. And another way I'm in an awkward position is that I don't want to be too successful in my argument because the size of my little business is exactly where I'd like to keep it. If anything, I am already too busy and don't want to expand or be tempted to.

The only thing we can confidently say about the future is that it won't be the same as today. Many of the rules and guidelines that we use will go by the wayside. We regularly see evidence of this now. Big companies and their standard ideas and practices collapse, only to be replaced by no-name companies with fresh ideas and new products that would have been ridiculed just a few years before. It is a constant revolution out there and, yes, a bit of a scary landscape for investors. But it is a great place for consumers, with new horizons and exciting new products.

More specific to our hobby, remember that many T206 cards, righteously loved by collectors today, ended up on the sidewalks outside of smoke shops. No one would have considered them investment worthy. Similar stories can be told about many, if not most, old sets. And most of those companies, once at the top of the market, are long gone. Taste changes, too. Unfortunately, it is possible that collecting cards at all will someday be comparable to how we look today at collecting, say, matchbooks or thimbles. Ho-hum. Cards have the advantage of being personality-driven, to a large extent. But will anyone really remember Christy Mathewson in another 50 years, or 100? I wonder about that. And if the lives and stories of those stars becomes too remote for people to identify with in a couple of generations, than one can pretty much write off the hobby as an investment at all.

But back to Helmar and the rest of the art card market. Most of our series are limited to around 20 sets. That is a very small quantity and they will all sell out. In twenty years if just 25 collectors (just 25!) wanted to collect a series then the prices would rise by a corresponding, or larger, percentage. That's all for now, Charles

[sirraffles]

Chris... around 20, often less. But it is interesting that you are holding only Helmar to this rule. No one has any idea how many cards were printed of most, if not all, of the cards that you presumably collect. In any case, they were printed almost uniformly in quantities exponentially greater than what we do.

Robert... I'd argue against low demand and adequate supply. But take a look at your econ book again, your conclusion is, in any case, off.

Thanks guys. Charles Mandel

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

Those are good criticisms and put me in an awkward position. I find myself wanting to argue that Helmar cards have a high investment potential when I've already said, correctly, that no one knows. Maybe that impulse is my well-known contrarian nature speaking or maybe a little bit of ego. Probably both. And another way I'm in an awkward position is that I don't want to be too successful in my argument because the size of my little business is exactly where I'd like to keep it. If anything, I am already too busy and don't want to expand or be tempted to.

The only thing we can confidently say about the future is that it won't be the same as today. Many of the rules and guidelines that we use will go by the wayside. We regularly see evidence of this now. Big companies and their standard ideas and practices collapse, only to be replaced by no-name companies with fresh ideas and new products that would have been ridiculed just a few years before. It is a constant revolution out there and, yes, a bit of a scary landscape for investors. But it is a great place for consumers, with new horizons and exciting new products.

More specific to our hobby, remember that many T206 cards, righteously loved by collectors today, ended up on the sidewalks outside of smoke shops. No one would have considered them investment worthy. Similar stories can be told about many, if not most, old sets. And most of those companies, once at the top of the market, are long gone. Taste changes, too. Unfortunately, it is possible that collecting cards at all will someday be comparable to how we look today at collecting, say, matchbooks or thimbles. Ho-hum. Cards have the advantage of being personality-driven, to a large extent. But will anyone really remember Christy Mathewson in another 50 years, or 100? I wonder about that. And if the lives and stories of those stars becomes too remote for people to identify with in a couple of generations, than one can pretty much write off the hobby as an investment at all.

But back to Helmar and the rest of the art card market. Most of our series are limited to around 20 sets. That is a very small quantity and they will all sell out. In twenty years if just 25 collectors (just 25!) wanted to collect a series then the prices would rise by a corresponding, or larger, percentage. That's all for now, Charles

For those of us to whom the player on the card means something, the card, to be deemed worthy of significant value, must be like a little time capsule, which not only connects you to the player by capturing an instant of his life, but also takes you back to the time. Ask yourself if if this criteria is met,

Respectfully,

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

"More specific to our hobby, remember that many T206 cards, righteously loved by collectors today, ended up on the sidewalks outside of smoke shops. No one would have considered them investment worthy. Similar stories can be told about many, if not most, old sets."

And that is precisely the point. Those cards are valuable today for the very reason that a small percentage of them, for a variety of reasons, survived. I don't believe you can just create value by manufacturing scarcity in an era when there is a fully developed market for cards and the overwhelming majority are preserved in original condition. I think the same holds true for all the allegedly rare versions of modern cards, although at least some of those have some significance as rookie cards and not fantasy cards.

That said, they are well done.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"More specific to our hobby, remember that many T206 cards, righteously loved by collectors today, ended up on the sidewalks outside of smoke shops. No one would have considered them investment worthy. Similar stories can be told about many, if not most, old sets."

And that is precisely the point. Those cards are valuable today for the very reason that a small percentage of them, for a variety of reasons, survived. I don't believe you can just create value by manufacturing scarcity in an era when there is a fully developed market for cards and the overwhelming majority are preserved in original condition. I think the same holds true for all the allegedly rare versions of modern cards, although at least some of those have some significance as rookie cards and not fantasy cards.

That said, they are well done.

+1. I think they might hold their value as beautiful art pieces but collecting them according to man-made scarcity usually doesn't increase value in my experiences. Great artwork and great organization. Wonderful product. And I ordered the new magazine too.....

[GregMitch34]

I love the Helmars too but still: I try to collect only, or mainly, the truly most beautiful cards that were actually produced before 1930. Unfortunately for Helmar, there are a great number of these, so there is no need to turn to Helmars for great art. Still, I am tempted, hence my original post. Variety and originality do count for a lot.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1436020911

[Chris Counts]

The way I see it, Helmar cards are essentially limited edition pieces of art ... without the limited edition part. I'll bet many collectors here have something that was created in a limited edition series on their wall. But "Around 20" is too vague for me, and I suspect, others as well. I can't imagine an artist signing a print, "Around 20." If I could produce something as beautiful as the Helmar cards, I would print them in numbers large enough so the average collector could afford them, and also issue larger limited edition prints, which would sell for considerably more.

Chris... around 20, often less. But it is interesting that you are holding only Helmar to this rule. No one has any idea how many cards were printed of most, if not all, of the cards that you presumably collect. In any case, they were printed almost uniformly in quantities exponentially greater than what we do.

Robert... I'd argue against low demand and adequate supply. But take a look at your econ book again, your conclusion is, in any case, off.

Thanks guys. Charles Mandel

[Stonepony]

I would think zero chance. I believe every one of their " issues" is low production. How many different products have they released - hundreds and hundreds...? Unless youre on E bay as much as Brian, you'd probably be hard pressed to recall any of them. Very nice product, but not collectable as an investment IMHO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I would think zero chance. I believe every one of their " issues" is low production. How many different products have they released - hundreds and hundreds...? Unless youre on E bay as much as Brian, you'd probably be hard pressed to recall any of them. Very nice product, but not collectable as an investment IMHO.

Yeah just a search of completed auctions, presumably just the last couple months, shows 19 different Babe Ruth cards.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw...=ruth&_sacat=0

[obcbobd]

Beautiful cards, great artwork. Would love to see a mass produced set at a more reasonable price. But $150 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...item1a01f8b30e) for a just produced card doesn't interest me.

[1880nonsports]

never had any idea some of these were selling for so much! Just wow.............

[porkchops]

Yes , many of the Helmars sell for quite a bit .
Fortunately for me , the one's I like are more reasonable .
Been able to get many at or a little above min. bid.
As for increasing in value ..... if they do , great ...if not
that's ok too . I collect for the fun of collecting and these are fun .
"Rough On Rats"
Ken

[sirraffles]

The different series may have different quantities produced...hence my descriptive "around twenty".

As for the quantity produced, it really has nothing to do with trying to set an artificial rarity, though rarity probably bodes well for future collectors. The small quantities make sense to me, and should to you. Simply put, the number that I produce equals how many I feel that I can sell comfortably. There's no point in making more than that; if I did so, I'd likely be hearing, "nice cards but they overproduce".

As a collector, to buy an expensive card simply based on rarity is something that I would hope to avoid. However, if we are honest then we must admit that many non-Helmar cards are purchased only because they are rare. I won't name any, but I'm sure we can all think of unattractive, even ugly, cards that are sought after and highly valued simply because they are "rare".

Lucky: if they are collected down the road because they are considered "beautiful art pieces," that is great. I don't know why you (and some others) stop short of calling them cards, but that is fine. I don't care what people decide to call them as long as they enjoy them. Caveat: I do dislike the "fantasy" term. Why would some cards be fantasy cards and others not? Is a 1948 Leaf Ruth a fantasy card, as he had retired years before? How about 1961 Fleer Greats? But it is not that big of a deal, though some seem to use the term derisively.

Larry, I like your entire thoughtful comment. You ask in bold type whether Helmar cards successfully "takes you back to the time." This is, of course, my intention and why people continue to collect the Helmar cards. To take fans back in time is the main reason that I decided, on a whim, to only offer distressed cards. That and it was a poke in the eye to (what I saw as) the crazed over-emphasis on grading and enslaving cards within plastic tombs. Just personally speaking, any card (including Helmar) that I can hold and feels "right" takes me back in time more successfully than a card that is slabbed. On Helmar cards, the player image is important, of course, but the paper finish, the weight, even the aroma (yes, I finally admit it! On a couple series I use a fragrance that I mix) all work together to make the full package.

I should add here that I understand the need for grading services and, in some cases, plastic slabs. It is just wildly over-emphasized, in my opinion, and has detracted from the enjoyment of collecting. It also discourages potential collectors from starting, I think.

I want to bring back collecting to what I enjoyed in the 1970's and the Helmar approach is my answer. I don't expect, and never expected, everyone to "get it". For those that do, enjoy the ride!

Best, Charles Mandel

[GregMitch34]

Charles, I appreciate you coming on here to "chat," even though not everyone a Helmar fan. Everyone seems to appreciate the art and your effort, however, and I recommend the magazine again.

[chaddurbin]

imo no, unless these are prototypes into something else that will get bought up by TOPPS to start mass production. same thing with watches, there are literally hundreds of little wannabe watchmakers out there copying the latest trendy looks. they are usually gone within a few years unless the craftmanship and quality is really superb where they gain some grassroots momentum. even then they are seen as on the level of the mass-produced seiko/timex...and not the collector/investment level of a panerai. so i don't think a $300 helmar is going for 50k in 100 years...no, more like fireworks (burning money).

[sirraffles]

Greg, thank you. I (usually) enjoy these discussions. Many of the themes are also relevant to the wider hobby, so at times they can make good food for thought for everyone.

Chaddurbin, thanks for your input. I'd point out that other cards, take a Piedmont t206 for example, are not valuable because they were the vague prototype for a Topps Allen & Ginter set. Regarding your take on the watch market, yes, there are many companies out there. And most of those make junk that will likely be of very limited interest in the future. But some, like our local Detroit recent brands Shinola and The Detroit Watch Company, make very fine pieces. I wouldn't hesitate to predict that their excellent products would find interest (and some resulting value) in the future. Then again, I don't even wear a watch, so what do I know?

As for a Helmar card going for $50,000 in the future... the original question was whether they had the possibility of appreciating "even ten percent".

Thanks, Charles Mandel

[packs]

I urge you all to back off the vintage market and dive head first into the Helmar market. It would really help me check some things off my want list.

[dabigyankeeman]

Originally Posted by glchen

No, they will not go up in value. For most cards to have value, they need to be issued during the player's playing days. If not, then the card needs to be part of a major set (e.g., Topps) or contained game used memorabilia or autos. Helmar cards fit none of these criteria.

I feel the exact same way, you said it perfectly.

That said, I like the look of a lot of the Helmar cards and might buy some if they were cheaper, but they are too expensive to me for cards that are NOT from a guys playing days.

[calvindog]

I always viewed the cards as an incredibly interesting oddity -- and appreciated the fantastic effort put into making such cards as well as their high quality. To simply dismiss them today as having no chance of appreciation is, I think, a bit short-sighted. In time everything in this hobby pretty much increases in value and someday there may be a strong desire for such cool cards.

[Wayne]

MAYBE in 100 years or so.

[JustinD]

I have had issue with Helmar in past years for what I felt were unclear listings and a possibility for abuse in the secondary market by unscrupulous flea market types trying to pass them off as vintage.

I thank Charles for refining the listings to reflect the clear art card aspect and also including dates clearly on the backs of some of his cards. I still would very much like to see 100% of the card creations to be dated, but I will applaud progress.

As for collectibility, I think they are basically on the level of Fritsch, TCMA or Ted Williams card co. They are beautiful and high quality, and are wonderful for a collector who cannot afford examples of certain players or players who had few cards created.

To me without them being original actual hand painted and signed art pieces which I would truly consider collectable investments, and more a short print run of a private fantasy card, they will unlikely ever be worth more than they were to the buyer originally. I think value would be far more likely to decline than the opposite.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Not necessarily true in all instances. The Laughlin cards from the 1970's of the Negro League players have appreciated substantially in value over the years.

To C

I think for many of the Laughlin cards, these were some of the first cards of Negro League players who never had any cards, outside some exceptionally rare RPPC's, issued during their playing days. So, I don't think you can compare Helmar to the Laughlin set.

The other issue with Helmar cards, and the creator can correct me if I'm wrong, is that I don't believe these have been properly licensed. For example, in order to issue Babe Ruth cards, you need to have a license from the estate of Ruth's family, which is one of the reasons that recent Panini cards do not have Ruth in their set because they could not obtain the licenses. Without the proper licenses, it is doubtful that the major TPG's would holder these cards, which would put a severe crimp in their future appreciation potential.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by glchen

The other issue with Helmar cards, and the creator can correct me if I'm wrong, is that I don't believe these have been properly licensed. For example, in order to issue Babe Ruth cards, you need to have a license from the estate of Ruth's family, which is one of the reasons that recent Panini cards do not have Ruth in their set because they could not obtain the licenses. Without the proper licenses, it is doubtful that the major TPG's would holder these cards, which would put a severe crimp in their future appreciation potential.

This is one of my big questions on this. They do use MLB logos in the drawings and other licensed images. I know this is big news recently as MLB and NFL have really cracked down on unlicensed use of intellectual properties. With Leaf having to issue airbrushed cards, as the rights are specific to Topps and Topps losing the rights to NFL Properties to Panini after this year. Any violation can result in a massive swat from their legal teams.

With the new Helmar Mag drawing more attention to their product, it seems like a very short time until the big legal dogs come knocking. Either the Estates, MLB Players Alumni Association, Topps or MLB Properties. You can bet if any one of those sniffs a dollar to be made, they will be there.