Teaching moments

[HOF Auto Rookies]

This is kind of taking a tangent and piggy-backing what Matt said in a different post.

I think it would be so beneficial for me (I would not consider myself an expert in pre-war, but pretty close in modern autographs and occassional post-war), whenever someone posts an autograph example questioning whether it's authentic or not, I would love to see the OP's reasoning on their opinion, and when an expert or other members' come on stating 'yay or nay' on why they believe the autograph is good or bad by pointing out characteristics proving so.

Why? Because I want to learn as much as I can, and I know others do as well. This will help minimize the posts asking for opinions all the time, and will help in teaching us what we can look for and pass on those traits to other collectors.

We have invaluable knowledge here on this site, and I love how we share opinions in the first place, me personally, I would love to get more familiar with Babe, Mantle etc, etc. to help myself as well as others.

Cheers,

Brent

[dgo71]

I think the concern is that anyone can view this site and the fear that such education will fall into the hands of forgers. I think what you're asking for is great in spirit but there are unfortunately those who will use the info to do harm to the hobby. Additionally, I think those who have mastered authenticating have done so through years of work and have developed a "feel" for spotting fakes that is something hard to teach.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by dgo71

I think the concern is that anyone can view this site and the fear that such education will fall into the hands of forgers. I think what you're asking for is great in spirit but there are unfortunately those who will use the info to do harm to the hobby. Additionally, I think those who have mastered authenticating have done so through years of work and have developed a "feel" for spotting fakes that is something hard to teach.

Yeah that makes sense, but like what if it were like, 'look at the bottom M on Mantle' or something along the lines of that. Obviously if ppl were to give away tells in a public setting that can be horrendous.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

This is kind of taking a tangent and piggy-backing what Matt said in a different post.

I think it would be so beneficial for me (I would not consider myself an expert in pre-war, but pretty close in modern autographs and occassional post-war), whenever someone posts an autograph example questioning whether it's authentic or not, I would love to see the OP's reasoning on their opinion, and when an expert or other members' come on stating 'yay or nay' on why they believe the autograph is good or bad by pointing out characteristics proving so.

Why? Because I want to learn as much as I can, and I know others do as well. This will help minimize the posts asking for opinions all the time, and will help in teaching us what we can look for and pass on those traits to other collectors.

We have invaluable knowledge here on this site, and I love how we share opinions in the first place, me personally, I would love to get more familiar with Babe, Mantle etc, etc. to help myself as well as others.

Cheers,

Brent

There are people that will give reasoning and show how they come to their conclusion and believe it to be helpful. others cling to the complete myth that forgers are constantly trolling the board looking for anyone to slip up and show them how to get better. it's simply not true. They have things to forge, they are not scrolling through dozens of pages looking for one line that shows them where they went wrong. It's a philosophy of putting information out there. knowledge is power, versus the "everything is proprietary" and what's mine is mine and my exemplars and expertise in an autograph is secret.

There should be no secrets. The forgers don't care one way or the other, so why not give the collectors a fighting chance to educate themselves by sharing information?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Additionally, I think those who have mastered authenticating have done so through years of work and have developed a "feel" for spotting fakes that is something hard to teach.

Smartest statement on the board in a long time.

[Big Six]

Originally Posted by travrosty

There are people that will give reasoning and show how they come to their conclusion and believe it to be helpful. others cling to the complete myth that forgers are constantly trolling the board looking for anyone to slip up and show them how to get better. it's simply not true. They have things to forge, they are not scrolling through dozens of pages looking for one line that shows them where they went wrong. It's a philosophy of putting information out there. knowledge is power, versus the "everything is proprietary" and what's mine is mine and my exemplars and expertise in an autograph is secret.

There should be no secrets. The forgers don't care one way or the other, so why not give the collectors a fighting chance to educate themselves by sharing information?

Well said...in total agreement!

[shelly]

Forgers hate when you tell them what is wrong with their product. They then have to start all over and most of them don't have the skill to do it.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by travrosty

There are people that will give reasoning and show how they come to their conclusion and believe it to be helpful. others cling to the complete myth that forgers are constantly trolling the board looking for anyone to slip up and show them how to get better. it's simply not true. They have things to forge, they are not scrolling through dozens of pages looking for one line that shows them where they went wrong. It's a philosophy of putting information out there. knowledge is power, versus the "everything is proprietary" and what's mine is mine and my exemplars and expertise in an autograph is secret.

There should be no secrets. The forgers don't care one way or the other, so why not give the collectors a fighting chance to educate themselves by sharing information?

Totally agree. Forgers are already plenty good enough to pass off their stuff to the average schmuck who buys on ebay or from coach's corner or one of the Florida forgery factories. I don't think they are worrying about getting it better or getting it perfect. They don't have to. The educated collector is not their target.

[1880nonsports]

that's mostly what it's all about with autographs - a feel based on experience - but think Travis echoed my feelings best about why it's important to share one's insights if one makes an informed opinion in a comunity such as this - the forger is only aided by silence........

[Mr. Zipper]

There are a few different levels of fakes.

The mass-produced fakes we commonly see are typically slowly drawn with signs of hesitation or wobble. They all look nearly identical and repeat the same exact flaws. There isn't much risk in pointing these out because these forgers are not out to fool experienced collectors. They make their money fooling casual buyers who don't do their homework. These are often accompanied by worthless COAs from "forensic experts"... another part of the ruse to fool uneducated buyers.

Then there are much more deceptive, well-executed fakes. These usually don't have any significant outstanding flaws, but they are detected by those with trained eyes because they "look off." Certain forgers adopt a "look" over time and those who have been watching closely pick up on the subtle characteristics that identify this type forger. But asking someone to describe it is much like asking someone to describe in words the difference between purple and blue.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Additionally, I think those who have mastered authenticating have done so through years of work and have developed a "feel" for spotting fakes that is something hard to teach.

Well-said, but 'years of work' do you no good if you don't already have talent in that area. If you don't, you can look at thousands of autographs for decades, and you still should change jobs. Unfortunately, we have a few people in the hobby who have put in decades of work and never had any skill to begin with. Some of these people are currently rendering opinions in this forum that are basically worthless.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by dgo71

I think the concern is that anyone can view this site and the fear that such education will fall into the hands of forgers. I think what you're asking for is great in spirit but there are unfortunately those who will use the info to do harm to the hobby. Additionally, I think those who have mastered authenticating have done so through years of work and have developed a "feel" for spotting fakes that is something hard to teach.

Derek, well written.

It is impossible to teach that "feel" and "eye" for spotting forgeries.

And I'm not referring to the crap "certed" by Drew Max, Coach's Corner, Chris "I Never Saw An Autograph I Didn't Like" Morales, Ted Taylor, etc. I'm referring to autographs penned by Fang, the "Michigan Forger" and others.

It takes years of studying on a daily basis and doing your best to keep up with the Joneses.

[1880nonsports]

I think the concern is that anyone can view this site and the fear that such education will fall into the hands of forgers. I think what you're asking for is great in spirit but there are unfortunately those who will use the info to do harm to the hobby.

IMHO that makes little sense. I suppose that all the autograph guides and exemplars on legal doccuments that are part of the public record or available utilizing the internet should be kept under lock and key? It's not as if they can't be acessed. Perhaps people should stop talking amongst themselves in case someone they thought was a friend is in reality a forger on the prowl for more information. If the forger's "tell" is a secret to a select few - they continue to make them until they can't sell them - make different ones -study more techniques or practice more with or without net54. People in general support the community by sharing their knowledge and stories. The ghosts around the corner are winning again as we become spooked by our own shadows.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

IMHO that makes little sense. I suppose that all the autograph guides and exemplars on legal doccuments that are part of the public record or available utilizing the internet should be kept under lock and key? It's not as if they can't be acessed. Perhaps people should stop talking amongst themselves in case someone they thought was a friend is in reality a forger on the prowl for more information. If the forger's "tell" is a secret to a select few - they continue to make them until they can't sell them - make different ones -study more techniques or practice more with or without net54. People in general support the community by sharing their knowledge and stories. The ghosts around the corner are winning again as we become spooked by our own shadows.

Have you ever authenticated an autograph, that is, put your seal of approval on it in a public selling forum? Do you know the name of one active forger? If the answer is no, then you are living in a theoretical world, not the reality that is.

Yes, everyone has access to public documents and authentic exemplars. But the subtle traits authenticators use, are not obvious... even to a forger who may do a good job at replicating the formation. Should experienced collectors and dealers and authenticators just lay it all out... information that may have taken decades to learn?

Of course people share. I share with other trusted friends and I was blessed to have mentors that shared with me. These things are learned through time and effort. I never expected a stranger on a message board to lay it all out and connect every dot for me. As it is, there is a LOT of general tips and observations shared here... enough to get anyone off on a good start to putting it all together. But some people always want more.

I can tell you for a fact that good forgers listen to feedback and refine their work. I've seen it in specific cases where information has appeared publicly, and poof... A short time later the product has been improved. It still has their fingerprints on it, but it has been changed.

Maybe the low level hacks don't troll for feedback, but the good ones are always looking to improve. It is an ongong game of cat and mouse.

Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or simply has never encountered a truly skilled forger.

[1880nonsports]

what do YOU come here for? It is after all an internet chat room about autographs. I have a couple of autographs and a few baseball cards among my holdings. I know a fair amount about tobacco cards, packs, and advertising. I might get 3/4 emails a month questioning the values, attributes, and vagueries about those items. I also participate on the non-sports forum. I can't think of one time I held back proprietary information gleaned over 20 years in response to a reasonable inquiry. I come to a FORUM - to laugh, cry, bitch, and share information with others. From your side holding back information so that the forger of whatever items doesn't get smarter is silly to me - if people keep outing the balls and they stop selling - I would think the sophisticated forger would be able to figure it out or perhaps move on to the next autograph. I don't suppose they're walking around with a T shirt saying I'M THE FORGER and they might even attend the national or trade shows or whatever and be UNKNOWN to the people they are talking with - maybe even broaching the subject of forged auto's and "what's wrong with them". I would think that forgers generally would have been involved in the hobby itself and most likely still are - as they continue to need the "tools" such as photos, balls, bats, and the rest.... At the very least I guess it comes down to you knowing something may be no good - and the friends with whom you share - but leaving the other members of the community holding the bag if an item came around...... I do agree that there are things I might share with friends and not with others and that ANYONE in ANY hobby should be doing most of the requisite work themselves as it's never up to others to do the work you should be responsible for yourself. I just think that the world would be a smaller place if like the Amish perhaps - we think of others before ourselves. No ill will here and sorry for the rather scrambled reply as it's late and I lost my ass tonight :-) I just hate the thought of scumbags taking advantage of anyone......

[1880nonsports]

I'm sure the people on the board (I'm a new viewer) do appreciate the suggestions of good and bad - or I'm on the fence - from respected collectors, dealers, and authenticators. I also don't think the authenticators need to share everything that led them to such a conclusion unless they want to - as it's how they earn their money. I just think there is more to be gained by exposure than silence. I also believe a smart and resourseful person - forger or not will find out things that make them better with or without - if at all...... I respect your right to think differently about it - especially as you are actually (it seems) more involved in the hobby than I - and therefore bring more experience to the table. If nothing else what you've said gives me something to think about and perhaps I'll come around :-) as my thoughts related to dishonesty usually revolve around alterations to my cardboard buddies......Now that I've come here and read some of the posts on this forum - I'm worried about my Buffalo Bill Cody autograph with a University Archives LOA from the 1990's - autograph collecting is tough business and I'm a light sleeper :-(

[toyman55]

Some people get up in the morning and get a cup of coffee, I come here to net 54 just for discussions like this. Being a novice collector I love this forum just to hear what collectors have to say that I can learn from. As far as this forum helping forgers, If they just bought Ron Keurajian's Baseball Hall of Fame Autographs book they would learn a lot. In the past 20 years that I have been collecting I was burned so many times it's not funny. I respect all who are willing to help out here to prevent the forgers from getting through to us. Being on the West Coast I think we are at a disadvantage because it appears to me that most of the great baseball memorabilia collectors are on the East Coast. Thanks to all who take the time to give their opinions. As an afterthought I actually like they yay or nays as it challenges me to figure out what is wrong with the autograph rather than being told.
Have a Great Day all.

[Leon]

There is a fine balance between helping hobbyists and letting out small trade secrets that help scammers. This is a common debate. I think each person has to decide what is best fo them. For me, I will tell most information publicly....but there are a few very small, but important things, that I don't make public. happy collecting

(for the record, I have known Henry - 1880snonsports - for 15+ yrs and he (hi Henry) is one of the nicest guys in the hobby...and maybe the most ethical, I have ever met)

[1880nonsports]

you.ve made me blush...... and as long as I'm turning red - it's worth noting the hammer price on that ACC in RE auction had me turning the same color. I've always had a lot of respect for you too - independent of the great job you do here.

[cubsfan-budman]

I would assume that most of the experts might give you a portion of what you're looking for via PM or email...the contents of this board show up in google searches.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

you.ve made me blush...... and as long as I'm turning red - it's worth noting the hammer price on that ACC in RE auction had me turning the same color. I've always had a lot of respect for you too - independent of the great job you do here.

That was an absolutely crazy price on that ACC. I sold one not too long ago and didn't get half the amount it sold for for in REA. Kudos to Rob for getting his consignor that kind of money. Thanks for the kind words. I hope we can get together at another National and spend some time chatting again. It's always my pleasure.

Back to the subject at hand. Yes, this board shows up high in Google searches so things said here get a lot of exposure. And yes, I will tell my best secrets about fakes and reprints, with friends, privately.

[toybulldog]

I would love to see the OP's reasoning on their opinion, and when an expert or other members' come on stating 'yay or nay' on why they believe the autograph is good or bad by pointing out characteristics proving so.

What I believe you are saying is that you would actually like to see an autograph authenticated/proven real or not. PSA, JSA and others are not authenticators and do nothing to authenticate autographs. There is no proof or reasoning to the service they offer and there is no evidence that they are even performing the service/analysis as they claim. If these so-called "authentication companies" were to include there reasoning or proof in their LOA's then there would be an opportunity for a retort or evidence to the contrary (as with members on this board). Why give an opportunity for one's image to be diminished if you can get away without being challenged, tested or pushed for answers?

In some cases proof has been offered on this board...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rocky+marciano

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ezzard+charles

post 121 here:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...yfield&page=13

post 51 here:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...lyfield&page=6

... and I can tell you there has been no quality increase in Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Mickey Walker or Evander Holyfield forgeries in the trade. Authentic autograph examples are to be had all over the net, not just here. Cop out?

[thetruthisoutthere]

When I first started exposing forgeries (and sellers of forgeries almost a decade ago) via blogging I always stated that I wasn't in it to educate, but to expose.

When I started exposing forgeries via video, I stated the same thing.

Everyone here is free to do what they choose.

I do share some information with my close friends. There is some information I don't share with anyone. My close friends sometimes share information with me and some they don't. We have a mutual respect there.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

What I believe you are saying is that you would actually like to see an autograph authenticated/proven real or not. PSA, JSA and others are not authenticators and do nothing to authenticate autographs. There is no proof or reasoning to the service they offer and there is no evidence that they are even performing the service/analysis as they claim. If these so-called "authentication companies" were to include there reasoning or proof in their LOA's then there would be an opportunity for a retort or evidence to the contrary (as with members on this board). Why give an opportunity for one's image to be diminished if you can get away without being challenged, tested or pushed for answers?

In some cases proof has been offered on this board...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rocky+marciano

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ezzard+charles

post 121 here:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...yfield&page=13

post 51 here:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...lyfield&page=6

... and I can tell you there has been no quality increase in Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Mickey Walker or Evander Holyfield forgeries in the trade. Authentic autograph examples are to be had all over the net, not just here. Cop out?

Exactly right, we ask to see exemplars, and how they authetnicate, they never show, so who know what they actually do. they go unchallenged by 99 % of the collecting public. You can't expose forgeries without educating. you have to prove forgeries and prove authentic autographs, otherwise there is no authentication going on. if the forgeries are so ridiculously obvious they dont require proof, then what service was really rendered?

[travrosty]

I know a few people here and there that won't share, and i can't for the life of me figure out why? I have even shared with them knowing they won't share back. It's ridiculous to keep the info to themselves only. Forgers aren't trolling the boards.

Like Mark said, it's not like the Marciano's, Charles, Louis and Liston fakes have gotten any better, and we will tell and show people all day what is wrong with the fakes.

If the abc and xyz companies (east-west connection) cert the bad ones anyway, then even worse. We fight the authentication companies who will cert loads of bad items as much as fighting the forgers.

because once the forgers find a service who will cert their fakes and make them worth 30 times as much, that is what really hurts the hobby, as much as the fake itself. They can send in that certain type of fake and get it certed all day long. 141 bad muhammad ali signed 8x 10 autographs in a row, all certed by abc, the forgers were busting out the bubbly on that one. champagne and cavier all around.

once the authentication company found out. did they issue an APB and tell people to be on the lookout for these bad Ali's? no, they do what they always do and shovel it under the rug, and they wont show what exemplars they used and who authenticated it. duck and cover, run and hide. same old song and dance. forgers are in heaven with checks and balances and company policies like this.

[shelly]

The secret is that most of the autographs posted on this site are slam dunk bad. It is the few that are not is what makes this a great place for opinions. It seems everyone has a certain autograph that they can see is bad long before anyone else on here. That is why I enjoy this site. The people on here dont know six thousand autographs they know one or two. They know them so well that I would bet on there opinion over any 3 party.
If the people that want to learn stick wilth one or two people get them down pat and then maybe move on to a few more at most.