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  #11  
Old 09-20-2018, 02:46 AM
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ruth_rookie ruth_rookie is offline
Jason “the bambino” Babin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper1927 View Post
I was awarded a Johnson...that’s probably why not...
And lemme guess... you polish it daily? I know I would if I had that impressive piece of hardware.
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  #12  
Old 09-20-2018, 03:43 AM
benjulmag benjulmag is offline
CoreyRS.hanus
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Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Hi Corey! I think it is almost universally agreed that Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever. His ERA is almost half a run better than Young’s. His shutout total dwarfs Young’s. There is an argument for Mathewson, albeit a weak one, but really none for Young.
Perhaps true Jay, though to some degree it is not an accurate comparison in that Young debuted almost a generation before Johnson, and in order to know what these statistics really mean, one would need to do an analysis of how league pitching stats might have changed over that period.


That said, for purposes of creating an award that would resonate with the public, it is a lot simpler to sell a guy that was the all-time win holder with no close second.
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  #13  
Old 09-20-2018, 04:29 AM
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itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
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IMO WaJo is the greatest, but I don’t think it’s entirely fair to penalize Cy for his ERA. During the early part of his career, he had to pitch through a major rule change, when they moved the mound back to its present day 60’ 6”. ERAs understandably shot up league wide. Cleveland’s team ERA increased almost 2 full runs from 1892 to 1893. Cy Young still outperformed the rest of the league in the 1890s, then had an amazing 7-8 year run during the latter part of his career (ERA barely above 2.00) as he approached 40.

To the OPs original question, I collect Matty pretty heavily and seem to have noticed an uptick over the past year or so. Not like the WaJo portrait, or the Cobbs, but each of Matty’s T206 poses seem to be creeping up, especially tougher backs. T205, and his many T202s seem pretty strong too.
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  #14  
Old 09-20-2018, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Hi Corey! I think it is almost universally agreed that Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever. His ERA is almost half a run better than Young’s. His shutout total dwarfs Young’s. There is an argument for Mathewson, albeit a weak one, but really none for Young.
He also received more votes for the Hall of Fame. So, he was seen as the better pitcher during his lifetime. I have always wondered about that. Was it his low World Series ERA? 3 Shutouts in 1905? More team success? Early death? I would take WaJo over Matty.

I agree with the article though. I would take Matty over Young. Longevity means something, but not that much. Matty's ERA is a half run better than Young, better than WaJo too, No Dodger fan would take Don Sutton over Sandy Koufax. Tom Glavine wasn't better than Pedro Martinez.
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  #15  
Old 09-20-2018, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
He also received more votes for the Hall of Fame. So, he was seen as the better pitcher during his lifetime. I have always wondered about that. Was it his low World Series ERA? 3 Shutouts in 1905? More team success? Early death? I would take WaJo over Matty.

I agree with the article though. I would take Matty over Young. Longevity means something, but not that much. Matty's ERA is a half run better than Young, better than WaJo too, No Dodger fan would take Don Sutton over Sandy Koufax. Tom Glavine wasn't better than Pedro Martinez.
Longevity means a lot more than it's getting credit for. I don't know who was best but it's hard to fault the all time win leader for having the award named after him for most wins in a season?
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  #16  
Old 09-20-2018, 09:37 AM
Dpoolem3 Dpoolem3 is offline
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Johnson did far more

with a much worse team

Mathewson had the benefit of playing in New York

1. Young
2. Johnson
3. Matty
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  #17  
Old 09-20-2018, 09:58 AM
Huysmans Huysmans is offline
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Longevity mean A LOT. Young is the greatest pitcher of the era in my opinion, without question, and the award is RIGHTLY named after him.
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  #18  
Old 09-20-2018, 10:33 AM
markf31 markf31 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
He also received more votes for the Hall of Fame. So, he was seen as the better pitcher during his lifetime. I have always wondered about that. Was it his low World Series ERA? 3 Shutouts in 1905? More team success? Early death? I would take WaJo over Matty.

I agree with the article though. I would take Matty over Young. Longevity means something, but not that much. Matty's ERA is a half run better than Young, better than WaJo too, No Dodger fan would take Don Sutton over Sandy Koufax. Tom Glavine wasn't better than Pedro Martinez.
Not sure HOF voting can be used for much of a barometer, or it should be taken at least with a grain of salt. Lou Crigar received 8% of HOF voting in 1937 and Johnny Kling garnered 10% of voting in 1937, both receiving more votes on the 1937 ballot than 31 other eventual HOF members and nobody would argue that either Crigar nor Kling were better than those 31 eventual HOF members. Some of those names include Evers, Chance, Simmons, Roush, Clarke, Crawford, Baker and Gehringer.
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  #19  
Old 09-20-2018, 11:01 AM
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"in order to know what these statistics really mean, one would need to do an analysis of how league pitching stats might have changed over that period."


It's been done. Let's use ERA+ (because it's easy and handy, not because it's the only think you might want to look at). It takes a player's ERA, adjusts it to account for the park he pitched in, and then compares to it league average. 100 is average, higher is better. This allows cross-era comparisons, because if Joe has a 110 ERA+ in 1920 and Mike has a 110 ERA+ in 1950 it means that, relative to his competition, Joe's ERA (after adjustments for his park) was 10% better than league average, and it means the same thing for Mike.


Cy Young

ERA+ IP
138 7356



Walter Johnson

ERA+ IP
147 5914


Christy Matthewson

ERA+ IP
136 4788


Obviously all three were all-time greats, but Matty is a clear #3 in this company.

Last edited by nat; 09-20-2018 at 11:02 AM.
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  #20  
Old 09-20-2018, 11:11 AM
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A few other notable pitchers:


Roger Clemens

ERA+ IP
143 4916


Lefty Grove

ERA+ IP
148 3940


Grover Cleveland Alexander

ERA+ IP
135 5190


Kid Nichols

ERA+ IP
140 5076



...how these guys compare to a more ordinary hall of famer...


Jim Bunning

ERA+ IP
115 3760


...and just for fun...

Babe Ruth

ERA+ IP
122 1221
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