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  #31  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
In 22 seasons Kaline had 170 assists and had a TZR of 155. In 18 seasons Clemente had 266 assists and had a TZR of 204. No doubt that Kaline was one of the greatest defensive RF, but Clemente was in a class by himself.
How does Parker rate?
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  #32  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:34 PM
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I saw Clemente play in person when I was 9. Wow I am getting old. I do remember being awed by his arm and generally everything else about him. I was also sitting with my father in the Kingdome right field bleachers during the 1979 All Star Game. I recall asking my Dad what he thought of Parker's two throws. He said, "Amazing, but Clemente's arm was better." My opinion is colored by a 9 year olds infatuation and a 55 year-old's memory. My father on the other hand witnessed Clemente's talents many times between 1955 and 1972 at both Forbes and Three Rivers. I have always considered my father to be a bright guy despite his love of Mickey Mantle so I will accept his assessment. Another barometer of Clemente's greatness is the fact that this discussion is occurring in the pre-war section of this site and no one has complained...yet.
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Last edited by 71buc; 07-10-2018 at 10:35 PM.
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  #33  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:57 PM
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Kevin Struss
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...and his power numbers were somewhat suppressed by playing half his games...for many years in the cavernous Forbes field. I say somewhat suppressed because Clemente wasn't a pull-power hitter, but a slash, line-drive type.
Unfortunately, I never saw him play, but looking at his lifetime splits, his slugging percentage was actually higher at home than on the road - .488 vs .463. He did hit more home runs on the road though - 138 vs 102.
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  #34  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:01 PM
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Looking at his stats from the hindsight of the sabremetric era, he really walked very little which is probably why Bill James ranked him so low in his 2002 book (70th or something all time).
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  #35  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
He had 3000 hits, was 37, and was coming off a 118 hit season. I don't think he was a threat to the all-time hit record.
Yeah hard to imagine him getting north of 3500. I never got a chance to watch him play (I'm only 32) but I think his humanitarian efforts have hoisted into the conversation of greatest players ever. It's hard for me to imagine that, based on stats, he is much above a mediocre HOF player (even though that would still make him one of the top 100 players of all time). I think even a lot of relatively recent inductees are better then him, e.g. Griffey.
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  #36  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
From my past experience over the last 10 years when a collector goes to sell his post war collection there are 3 guys he least wants to part with. This is how I gauge long term value.

1. Mantle
2. Jackie
3. Clemente

Itís a shame but people donít have as hard of time letting go
Of Mays, Aaron, and Koufax.

Just my personal experience.
And IMO Mays, Aaron, or Koufax are above the other three. Sadly, it may take their deaths to bring their prices up to the others.
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  #37  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:17 PM
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It's all arbitrary but I would probably rank him somewhere between 30 and 40 -- for me, the high batting average, the fielding, and what I sense were some powerful intangibles put him well above the average HOFer, though still not in the class of Mays Aaron and Mantle and even a bit below Frank Robinson.
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  #38  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How does Parker rate?
Parker had a great arm but his routes to balls in the air were often baffling. He was not a good fielder but his arm was terrific which helped make up for some of his other deficiencies.

The two best arms I can recall were Dwight Evans and Ellis Valentine.
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  #39  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:35 PM
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Default Clemente / Kaline

Speaking of stats: Clemente was with two World Series winners (1960 / 1971) Kaline one (1968)

Clemente's lifetime batting average was .317 Kaline finished with .297.

Also Kaline won just one batting title to Clemente's four.

There is no doubt Clemente meant more to the Pirates then Kaline meant to the Tigers.
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  #40  
Old 07-11-2018, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
He had 3000 hits, was 37, and was coming off a 118 hit season. I don't think he was a threat to the all-time hit record.
As the late Mr. Dangerfield said, "tough crowd, tough crowd." For all you wizards of the keyboard - like the above - who piped in, like jackals waiting to pounce on the latest innocuous mistake, I offer a mea culpa. I neglected to note his age, thinking he was younger than 37 when he passed. So, 300 hits for four years at that age would be inconceivable even for the great RC. However, couldn't help noting there - so far - are no rebukes to my comment re: his cannon-like arm. Hello? Anybody? Tough to dispute that one, eh?
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