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  #111  
Old 07-13-2018, 12:28 PM
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perezfan perezfan is offline
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?
1. Not the best clutch hitter when the team really needed that big "2 out" hit in a close game.

2. No power whatsoever.... not many extra base hits.

3. No championships at all.

Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter, had some surprising power, and won two World Championships. Granted, Carew played in Minnesota at a time that they were not great.

Those would be the 3 reasons that immediately come to mind. There's more to it than just stats on paper. But MLB did put the A.L. Batting Title in his name, and he was a great singles hitter.

Last edited by perezfan; 07-13-2018 at 12:30 PM.
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  #112  
Old 07-13-2018, 12:48 PM
obcbobd obcbobd is offline
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I have always thought the best of the best and maybe even just the average major leaguer was far more talented in the dead ball era than they are today. So many more people played baseball in the dead ball era. Every single boy in every single town, and you had to be better than all of them. Now you only have to be better than the kids who decide to play baseball, which the news tells you is a smaller and smaller pool every year.
How many played organized ball and were scouted? How many dropped out of school at 12 to work on the family farm? I read that Carl Yaztrzemski's father was offered a pro contract, but turned it down to stay on the potato farm and help his family during the depression.
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  #113  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
1. Not the best clutch hitter when the team really needed that big "2 out" hit in a close game.

2. No power whatsoever.... not many extra base hits.

3. No championships at all.

Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter, had some surprising power, and won two World Championships. Granted, Carew played in Minnesota at a time that they were not great.

Those would be the 3 reasons that immediately come to mind. There's more to it than just stats on paper. But MLB did put the A.L. Batting Title in his name, and he was a great singles hitter.
His SLG was the same as Morgan's. Less power but a lot more hits.
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  #114  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:06 PM
packs packs is offline
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Originally Posted by obcbobd View Post
How many played organized ball and were scouted? How many dropped out of school at 12 to work on the family farm? I read that Carl Yaztrzemski's father was offered a pro contract, but turned it down to stay on the potato farm and help his family during the depression.
I don't know what your conception of scouting is in 1910, but you don't have to look any further than Babe Ruth, who was playing baseball at an orphanage when he was discovered. Take a look at Baseball Reference's minor league side whenever you've got a chance. Click through any state you want. Tell me how many town teams you see. And those are only the ones in recognized leagues. That's not even getting into company squads and even lesser town teams.

Last edited by packs; 07-13-2018 at 01:09 PM.
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  #115  
Old 07-13-2018, 02:07 PM
aloondilana aloondilana is offline
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I too have often used Al Kaline as an example to compare what Clemente's worth would be if he wasn't the hispanic poster boy and didn't die tragically.

Clemente was a great all around player, but in no way shape or form should his cards be in or above the range of Mays, Aaron, Ted Williams etc.
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  #116  
Old 07-13-2018, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by aloondilana View Post
I too have often used Al Kaline as an example to compare what Clemente's worth would be if he wasn't the hispanic poster boy and didn't die tragically.

Clemente was a great all around player, but in no way shape or form should his cards be in or above the range of Mays, Aaron, Ted Williams etc.

Hispanic Poster Boy...wow
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  #117  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:28 PM
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Default Some of these answers

Some of these answers seem to forget baseball is no longer just primarily a US sport with a minor Latin influence and is much more global with a huge Latin influence along with population explosions making the fact that baseball is now the # 3 sport in America rather irrelevant. American Football is only number one in the USA nowhere else. Baseball is still much larger than football
Globally. Though I understand soccer trumps
Them all in popularity.
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  #118  
Old 07-13-2018, 09:43 PM
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All this WARing and JAWing misses the essence. Clemente isn't a top tier card collecting favorite because of his stats alone, he is at the pinnacle because of the other factors that make his story so compelling and that make people want to have his cards. Clemente was a great ballplayer, but he was an even greater human being. You can fling stats at each other like monkeys slinging poo but it won't change the reality on the ground, which is that if you had a son who said Al Kaline is his role model, you'd say that's nice but if he said Roberto Clemente was his role model you'd be a very proud papa.
Umm. Yes. This.

Clemente is an icon who transcends baseball. Great players come and go, but a story like Clemente’s will likely never be replicated.
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  #119  
Old 07-14-2018, 06:20 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Mantle, Clemente, and Jackie are the 3 most valuable post war players. Not many collectors I know wanna sell their cards of said players, they only want to buy more !

That doesn’t mean they have the best stats or were the best players. We’re they great players? Absolutely.

More importantly when it comes to value is iconic, popularity, and all around amazing character.

People that don’t know jack about baseball know who Jackie, Clemente, and Mantle are when you mention their names. Just as they know Ruth.

Last edited by Johnny630; 07-14-2018 at 06:23 AM.
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  #120  
Old 07-14-2018, 07:21 AM
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So many thoughts:

1) As a player, Clemente isn't even close to inner circle HOF.

2) As a person, Clemente is definitely inner circle HOF.

3) As for Kaline vs Clemente - how does the fact that Kaline played in a really small RF impact his TZR and assists? Certainly fewer guys would be running on Kaline given how short Tiger Stadium's RF was, especially compared to Forbes.

4) Folks in this thread are giving Jackie Robinson waaaaaaaaay too much credit as a 2B. The guy played 748 of his 1382 games at 2B - 54%. Yeah, it was his most-frequent position but he played 256 games at 3B, 197 at 1B, and 162 in the OF. Guys who played 5 seasons at a position aren't in the conversation for "best ever" at that position. Period.

5) The Owens/De Grasse comparison thing is nonsense. Owens ran a 10.3, De Grasse ran an 11.0. Yep, he was slower. The very time ever wearing that particular kind of shoe, without blocks, etc. Does anybody REALLY think De Grasse wouldn't have been faster with a month of practice using the same equipment? C'mon.
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