a little venting- shutting Ebay auctions down

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Posted By: leon

I have done it myself, when I could, since most people now feel compelled to try to close down auctions....but has anyone noticed the greatly increased amount of ebay auctions getting shut down to sell before auction end, recently? There are really some stupid sellers out there !! My guess is only 1 in 10 got more by closing early to someone that really wanted something. I used to hate it. Now I just join in.....

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Leon,

Which auctions are you referring to? It's always nice to peak at the auctions that ended early so that you can guess what the seller could have realized if the auction went to completion.

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Posted By: leon

PrewarSports, Rhett or Rhys, just posted two Holmes to Homes cards on the BST pages that I was tracking last week.....with fairly large bids in the cover.....and they got shut down. Not blaming anyone but there was also a Red Cross box recently, the Victorian KBats deal, etc etc.....just more than normal, so it seems....


http://cgi.ebay.com/1915-Black-Sox-Hap-Felsch-57-M101-5_W0QQitemZ250026335426QQihZ015QQcategoryZ86841QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Jim Manos

God forbid... We should crucify someone else for it, like everyone does me. It is a dog eat dog world out there. I agree with Leon. Only in my words, "Your not suppose to go over the speed limit, but everyone does." Different strokes for different folk's. Good luck.

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Posted By: Joann

I agree though that it seems like a LOT lately. It won't change until ebay decides it's losing too many fees and finds a way to limit it. Maybe allow each id one or two freebies for legit mistakes and after that hammer sellers with high fees for closing early. But really that's the only way it will change.

On a related note, it seems like I've also seen a lot lot more auctions lately with sellers openly soliciting non-ebay offers and stating they will end auctions early.

So maybe soon feebay will realize they are sometimes just used for free advertising, and step in to recoup their share.

Joann

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Posted By: rhys

Before this gets out of hand I want to say one thing.

I have never asked a seller to end an auction early if bids have been placed on an item. That is my personal moral issue with doing this. When I asked the seller if they were interested in selling OR ADDING A BUY IT NOW to this auction for a price (stated) no bids were placed. He responded to me and said no problem, still no bids placed. I paid the man and it took him a few days to get around to closing the auction for whatever personal reasons he had in doing so. Only because he took so long did any bids get placed and cancelled.

I am sure some on the forum might disagree with this tactic, but this is what I feel ok doing and feel there is nothing wrong with it.

I have asked this question about 30 times on ebay in the last 5 years. Probably 20 times they say no, about 8 times they add buy it nows which I use (and sometimes dont get to quick enough) and a few times they close the auction down. This being the first time any bids were cancelled.

If this offends anyone, I apologize. But in a system where this what goes on thousands of times a day, I see nothing wrong with asking the question when no bids have been placed on an item.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I noted one the other day from the vintage memorabilia board on a Mickey Mantle glove with the original box. I don't know why the seller ended it early because this beauty was up to $1200 after just one day on ebay. Probably see it in a Mastro auction soon....right along with that Harry Wright Cabinet that disappeared a few months back.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MICKEY-MANTLE-OLD-RAWLINGS-MMP-GLOVE-MINT-UNUSED-IN-BOX_W0QQitemZ330028141091QQihZ014QQcategoryZ50126Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Joe D.

if there are no bids on an item... it seems fair enough.

if there are bids / I can understand one of the bidders feeling bamboozled.

so, I am with you on that one. I think your actions were perfectly within bounds.

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Posted By: Chris Bland

If someone listed a legit Baltimore News Babe Ruth in an obscure section of ebay, 99% of us would try to get it ended if we saw it. When we miss out it is irritating, but when it works, we all love that it did!!!

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Over the course of a couple of months last year, there were a couple of '38 Goudeys that I needed on ebay that mysteriously ended early. Ever since then, whenever there's a '38 Goudey on ebay that would be an upgrade for me, unless the auction description specifically states "I will not end auctions early", I contact the seller and ask if he/she would end it early for the right offer.

The main reason I do it is to let the seller know that there's someone out there willing to buy the card. I figure if someone else asks to end the auction early, and then the seller gets a second email from someone else asking the same thing, maybe they'll think twice about it.

No seller has ever ended one early for me.

'38 Goudey is the only set I do this with - anything else, I just let it run. If someone gets the seller to end the auction early, them's the breaks - all it means to me is that I saved some money.

-Al

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Posted By: leon

You are one of the good guys....I should have asked first but they really weren't that important to me..No big deal..I used to feel the same way as you, about not asking, then we had the thread a long time ago about it, and I changed my mind. If you are going to fight you might as well throw the first punch. I don't think shutting auctions down should be allowed at all...but they can be and are...so might as well join in..........btw, there are at least 1-2 known without back damage or trimming..

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Posted By: T E

As an eBay merchant (hoofaway) I never end an auction early. When I get a request to end an auction early, it makes me smile, because I KNOW the ending price will be higher than the offer.

I go to live auctions off the beaten path. Rural America. Everyone is very friendly, smiles, but they will stick you faster than you can blink. All is fair in the auction world. Obviously, there are some things that are just wrong, like moving a piece from one lot to another, etc, but you just have to keep your eyes open and know that the rule is there are no rules.

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Posted By: Cat

I too was tracking the Holmes to Home cards. After contacting the seller with the following question" "Will you be relisting the card?" This is the reponse that I received (shown below). Did someone on the board buy this card? Was it someone on the board that was selling the card?

I Xed out the guys name for obvious reasons.


Question from krazyeddie55

Activity with krazyeddie55 (last 90 days):
- I have bid on 0 items from krazyeddie55

krazyeddie55( 260)
Positive feedback: 99.6%
Member since: Nov-22-00
Location: OK, United States
Registered on: www.ebay.com



No, my sons finally show some interest in some of my cards after I decide to sell them. We will be keeping those, Thanks for your interest. XXX





________________

http://www.audiocomedy.net/soundboards/jacket.shtml

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Posted By: Cat

After checking the B/S/T things are far more clear now. f-----g b---s--t



________________

http://www.audiocomedy.net/soundboards/jacket.shtml

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Posted By: Richard

Just to clarify the Red Cross Box that Leon is referring to as well, I settled on a price with the seller prior to any bids being placed. In addition, the sale was completed with a Buy it Now.

As far as what the item is worth, I had no idea and neither did the seller. I think for items such as this, it is hard to determine value. The number ended up being something that both of us were happy with. I can live with that.

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Posted By: paulstratton

I still think sellers are stupid for doing this but can't say I blame them if they don't know what they have. Doesn't it seem like this kind of thing is limited to pre-war baseball items? I do find some of the offers rather humorous though. Especially the one's that say "Will you end this auction early for $100?" Um...NO.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I guess the moral of the story here is to get a second ebay ID that nobody on the board knows and throw in a bid early so you guys won't try to get the seller to end early?

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Posted By: Russ Bright

it CAN backfire in some instances, but rarely. I had a card selling for 300 buy it now OR best offer. I had an offer for 225. then 200. than an offer for 150. I let time run out and it didn't sell, and i'm out 60 dollars in Ebay selling fees. I'll just have to wait for basketball season to start to sell my Bird/Magic rookie...

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's interesting that no one would even dare ask an auction house to sell a lot outright from their catalog, but on ebay it is the thing to do. I think that if a seller lists something he is making a commitment to see the auction through. But ebay doesn't care and as Leon said at the outset sellers almost always give things away when they shut down.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Like they say "all is fair in love and war"

There is little love in the auction game. If sniping is acceptable, so is premature negotiating. If the item is one which I value, I advise the seller that I am anxious to win the item in a competive bid format, so long as he is willing to allow me the opportunity to outbid anyone interested in ending the auction early. I have never had this offer rejected, but I have outbid others.

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Posted By: Steve M.

I see an item on an upcoming auction. Let's say it's the T212 Obak Weaver on Huggins. Would I not dare email the auction house and ask it to ask the consiginor if he/she might be willing to withdraw the item and sell it to me outright for $3,000. Doesn't the auction house have an obligation to the consignor to pass along the offer? Keep in mind that the auction has not opened and no bids have been placed.

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Posted By: Jeff O

The one thing that is often conveniently ignored in these discussions is eBay. They don't get the fees they are rightfully entitled to when the seller pulls his auction and sells offline. I've heard all the excuses before - their fees are too high, they have the only game in town, they're a big company, etc. It's all crap. I'm always amazed at how many people are willing to commit "soft fraud" againt major corporations. The seller enters into a contract with eBay when he lists his item, and if he takes it down to sell offline to someone and doesn't pay eBay their fees, he's breaking the contract.

That's the big difference in the example Steve gives - if the offer is made through a major auction house (pick your favorite), I promise you the auction house would still get their fee for brokering the deal. The reason many (most) folks pull their auctions is to avoid paying eBay fees - essentially using them as free advertising for the item for sale.

When a seller lists with eBay, he knows the rules and expectations, and he shouldn't screw them out of their fees just because he got what he feels was a generous offer.

Jeff

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Posted By: runscott

Leon, it sucks - I can't tell you how many times I've had items on my watch list that someone talked the seller into ending the auction early. I'm just getting back into cards and it's not easy - most of you haven't taken a break, so you probably haven't noticed how absurd things have gotten over the last five years.

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Posted By: Jeff Lowe

Finally see an item of interest and again the greed machine strikes . I wont end an auction early for any amount of money . Shame people never learn .




Jeff

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Posted By: Dave

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150039390668&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fws%2Fsearch %2FSaleSearch%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26satitle%3D150039390 668%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC5%26fbd%3D1%26amp%253Bsspagename %3Dh%253Ah%253Aadvsearch%253AU>

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Posted By: Brad

I was going to bid nice money on this one!

http://cgi.ebay.com/1922-WILLIAM-PATTERSON-FRANK-FRISCH-NEW-YORK-NATIONALS_W0QQitemZ170032020013QQihZ007QQcategoryZ 31719QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Josh K.

Jeff O - um, not exactly. if a seller lists a card on ebay he pays an insertion fee - that fee is non-refundable and is payment for ebay's agreement to list the card. If, and only if, the card sells, ebay receives a second fee - the final value fee. This fee is contingent upon the item selling. There is absolutely nothing that legally prohibits the seller from taking down an auction (i.e. deciding he no longer wishes to sell his card on ebay). Its irrelevant that the seller later sells the card off line.

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Posted By: sagard

Sellers don't always get the same money when they leave items to run their course on Ebay. There are legit buyers who will make a very strong offer on a card, but refuse to get in a bidding war for that same card. When that occurs the seller actually may lose by not taking the offer.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Josh- ebay does get a listing fee either way but it is next to nothing. I can list a card worth say $1000 and often my listing fee is like $1.70. But if I sell it, then I think they get something like $20. These are just estimates but clearly they make their money from the selling end. The listing is nominal.

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Posted By: T E

If you list an item for $1,000, you pay about $5, assuming you are using the usual-gallery, etc. If you list an item for $100 with a reserve of $1,000, you pay about $15.

As I said earlier, sellers are foolish to end listing early if they want to maximize their return. But, the seller should have the right to end the auction early. Sometimes, stuff happens. Last week, I ended a theatre poster early because my wife saw it and said, "I want that for my office." I told her that this particular poster had many people watching it, and would go for about $100, which was fine by me. She walked out of the room.

I ended the auction and gave her the poster.

Sorry to harp on this, but the only rule in the auction world is there are almost no rules, except for fraud and the like. Don't break the law, be honest, but caveat emptor-and seller beware, too. (Anybody know the Latin for that one?) If a seller is dumb enough to end an auction early because someone contacts them directly, so be it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

But you wouldn't dare call Mastro or REA or Leland's in the middle of one of their auctions and ask them if they would sell you a lot outright. Nobody would even have the nerve to do that. So why then is it perfectly acceptable on ebay?

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Posted By: T E

Of course what Barry is saying is true if you are savy as a seller and know that an item is goin g to hit $1,000. Then you can list the item for .99 cents starting bid. Then your fee is under a dollar. But when I have a $1K item, I spend the extra $20 and feature it, anyway.

In the end, people who end their auctions early to sell off-line are just not smart sellers. We have enough rules and regulations-in the auction world, you are on your own.

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Posted By: T E

Why do you think auction houses pull items that are in their catalog? I assume it is because they are on consignment, and the consignor has perhaps received an offer they can't refuse...

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Posted By: T E

Let me put this in a different light.

You walk into someone's house. They have some cards they want to sell. You look at them-a nice load of T206s. Do you say, "Wow, these are worth a hell of a lot of money, great batch of cards, I don't think I can afford the true value of these cards..." or do you say, "Hmm, interesting. But there is a bit of a condition problem here and baseball cards aren't what they were a few years ago and blah blah blah..." and try to get the cards for a fair (to you) price?

That is capitalism. I try to be "fair" in my purchases, but who in the end am I being fair to, first? Me. I walk out of the house with the cards, I tell myself I've been fair to the seller, but I am looking out for #1. Am I an evil person? A bad person? I don't think so. I think I am living by the rules of our society.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

With all do respect Barry, Ebay is far from what Mastro, REA, & Lelands represent in the hobby.
To even compare the two in my opinion is incorrect.
A seller should be able to make his or her own decision when it comes to ending an Ebay auction
that is their's.
Again, just my opinion.

Regards, Tony Andrea

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Posted By: barrysloate

But TE- in your example that is an entirely private transaction, and it is strictly up to the buyer and seller to work out a mutually acceptable deal. When you list on ebay there is a third party involved. The reason so many auctions end early is that ebay allows you to press a button and end it at any time. That button could be removed, so that once you list something it has to stay up until the last second. There could be extenuating circumstances where one might end early; say you are listing a T205 and inadvertently call it a T206. Then you should have the option to terminate. But once you put something up for auction, I think there is an implied agreement that the lot will go to the highest bidder. Apparently, ebay disagrees, but it is clearly costing them money.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Barry wrote: "But you wouldn't dare call Mastro or REA or Leland's in the middle of one of their auctions and ask them if they would sell you a lot outright. Nobody would even have the nerve to do that. So why then is it perfectly acceptable on ebay?" I'd do it except that I know that an auction house won't do it. However, I also know that auction houses do from time to time broker sales between "consignors" and well heeled buyers. It is all about money. If I had something really exceptional that I did not want to auction off publicly, I would consider approaching an auctioneer to broker it if I did not know where to sell it.

Whatever your feelings about auctioneers ending early for whatever reason, if the rules of the auction (ebay) allow for it, there is nothing inherently wrong. It is frustrating as heck but that doesn't make it wrong. Some folks are astounded by what cards are worth and will take a bird in hand, so to speak, over the vagaries of ebay. One of the spurs to auctions ending early, I believe, is that so many buyers use sniping services to place bids. A seller, particularly a novice, might panic and sell to a solid offeror if the official ebay price is nowhere. I usually watch the # of watchers; if there are a lot, I expect many snipes to run up the price, but that does not always happen. If someone offers me a fair price and the actual bids are in the toilet, I might take it and cut my risks.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Tony- I agree that ebay and auction houses are different animals, but I feel the early end to ebay auctions is becoming a bit of an epidemic. As soon as something good is listed everyone pounces on it like vultures. That it is permitted is one thing; but I think it happens too often and is compromising the integrity of ebay (I'm going under the assumption that ebay has integrity, I know I will have some detractors).

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Barry,
I'll agree with that.

Tony Andrea

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- the private transactions between auction houses and well heeled buyers are perfectly fine if the lot never appeared in an auction in the first place. That's acceptable, because the consignor might request it. And I know what you are saying about closing an ebay auction to get a sure thing; but then why auction it in the first place? Auctions close early because ebay allows it. If there was no button to push to terminate every auction would run its course. Everyone knows when you list something you are incurring an element of risk.

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Posted By: T E

Barry, I don't know why major auction houses pull items that are in their catalogues, but they do.

Your example of an error in listing is why a seller should be able to end a listing, at least for that reason, any time. I have had auctions where I discovered an error in the listing on the last day and have been unable to end it due to the 12 hour rule.

Sellers should be discouraged from ending listings early but still allowed to do so. I'm still looking for the Latin for the reverse of Caveat Emptor, to apply it to the seller, Seller Beware...but you are on your own...

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Posted By: jeff drum

Has anyone ever simply e-mailed the seller to alert them that they would probably have "several" offers to end the auction early and if they did they would most likely leave money on the table?

If you don't try to prevent it, and it's permitted by the system - not much to complain about other than the fact that you don't like it.

I don't like it either but it is one of the factors that you have to account for and deal with. The system as currently constituted permits it and obviously tacitly encourages it.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Barry,

Whether the listing fee is small or not is irrelevant. Ebay does get paid to list the item. Yes, they get paid more if it sells, but that doesnt mean sellers cant end a listing early for any reason they choose. If ebay doesnt like "losing" money on a potential sale, then their solution is to increase listing fees and decrease final value fees.

Finally, you state:

"But you wouldn't dare call Mastro or REA or Leland's in the middle of one of their auctions and ask them if they would sell you a lot outright. Nobody would even have the nerve to do that. So why then is it perfectly acceptable on ebay?"

Well, this isnt true either. While I agree it is highly unusual, it does happen. First, Ive seen plenty of auctions in which lots have been withdrawn - what makes anyone believe that those werent private sales? Second, just last week one of the auction houses (Lelands?) sold the the Pete Rose autographed apology balls for 30k after receiving an offer to purchase was received. The offer was accepted and the balls were removed from an upcoming auction - how is it that everyone has forgotten this already?

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

It seems that most of the people upset about Sellers ending an auction early want the card or feel that someone else got a good deal on it. SO WHAT? WHO CARES? Unless you wanted it, then you get pissed off. Really, if the card is owned by someone and another person wants it and the two agree on a price, what is the big deal? The truth is no one here cares about the Seller getting the most out of the card, you are just pissed it wasn't you who made the offer. Get over it! I have and will continue to ask Sellers if they would end the auction early for 2 reasons. The 1st is that I want the card and don't want to fight over it; the 2nd is that I want to make sure the auction is going to continue to the end. If I get the card by asking then good for me, if I don't then at least I know the auction will continue. BTW - I have not had much success in asking a Seller to end an auction early, but the ones that have ended early for me, are part of my greatest deals. Happy bidding!

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Posted By: Josh K.

I should add - despite my position above (that its ok to remove items that have been listed) I dont like it either. But then again, Im sure sellers dont like snipe bids that serve to keep final prices as low as possible. If ebay just instituted a 15 minute rule like the major aution houses with respect to individual auctions, I would bet that most listings would run their full course.

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Posted By: Cobby33

If I REALLY REALLY have to have a card, I will email the seller as a preemptive strike. I'm not big into ending auctions being ended early, but obviously, it's a reality. So- "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em," or at least, try to fire the first shot, as it were.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Josh- as far as the Rose balls being pulled from REA, that doesn't count because that auction isn't scheduled to begin until Spring of next year. They don't even have a catalog yet. And I do know lots are sometimes withdrawn, but it is unclear exactly why this is being done. It could be an authenticity question, a consignor complaining about something in the description, or whatever. It doesn't in any way suggest a private sale is being conducted by the auction house. There are many reasons why lots are withdrawn. And getting back to ebay, I understand they feel pulling the plug on an auction is an acceptable practice, so apparently it will keep happening. I actually emailed an ebay seller recently and told her not close her auction early, that despite the fact her lot was doing poorly it would certainly do well in the end. She replied she was bombarded by offers to close early, but said she had no plans to do so. Her final realized price was more than 50% higher than the best offer she received. Obviously, she was a smart seller.

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Posted By: T E

Caveat vendor. So the word vendor comes directly from Latin.

Our society is obsessed with Caveat Emptor, but Caveat Vendor is just as important, at least on ebay. How many times have you seen on the news "Poor Mrs Doe was ripped off on ebay when she paid $xxx to an unscrupulous seller..." but never the reverse-"Poor Mrs Doe was ripped off by a buyer who bought her Honus Wagner T206 for $50..."

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Posted By: Larry

Josh- You have the same message posted I feel would solve the problem..

For those that complain about ending auctions early and comparing to auction houses, the MAJOR differences is that sniping is NOT part of auction houses..If you do not put up a bid, then extended bidding is NOT allowed while at e bay level, as I once posted before, if everyone waited until the last minute to bid by sniping, no one would risk putting good material up for auctions on e bay, even with "so many interested parties". Why bother????
Solution- Have e bay allow a 3-5 minute extended bidding time for additional fee(option) and for ONLY those that put a bid of some type prior to scheduled closing time, early auction closes would most likely drop drastically, then dealers would not take their items and sell privately and good bidders would have a fair chance. Sniping creates the climate that dealers and collectors prefer to wait till the end, but the seller should be able to protect themselves too, it is their investment at stake. Fortunately, we auction good cards so the right prices and usually do hit expected levels most of the time.

Lately, If an item I start and it has a higher than normal $9.95 start, lets say $295, BIN $500 and everyone waits until end and there are no bids, if someone makes a fair offer and there are no bids, I will definately think about closing auction because there is no way e bay is making it fair for dealers to sell if sniping is allowed yet closing early is discontinued for legit reasons. Late closing of an auction(at least 12 hours)after bids are posted is e bay's way of making sure dealers do not end early on last day and remember, you cannot close early within the last 12 hours so e bay does insure that they get a lot of money in this way. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but from a dealer and collector stand point, auction houses and E bay operate way differently so they should not be equated until e bay allows extended bidding priveleges.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

it is called a "reserve". They can also elect not to start $10,000 cards at $9.99. When I list cards on ebay I list them at a level that will protect me if they sell. I know people have different philosophies on that; some believe that "action" on an underpriced card will inspire bidders into an auction fever that will drive up the card. That may be a realistic phenomenon in live auctions but I don't believe it for ebay.