W575-1 & E121 Strange Fronts -- *NEW DISCOVERY*

[rhettyeakley]

This thread is obviously not for everyone as I doubt there are more than a handful of us that care about these things but I have made what is IMO an important new discovery...

Over the past few years there have been a few W575-1 cards that look very different than the normal W575-1 or E121 blank back. Instead of the normal "block lettering" at bottom on front they exhibit a serif style font that resembles the E135 Collins-mcCarthy or H801 Boston Store cards minus the card # at bottom. Up to this point only three players have been found exhibiting this style font, here are the images of the known checklist (Frank owns the Kelly, Brian P. owns the Schang, and I own the Dauss)...


For comparison here is an image of what a "normal" E135 card looks like along with examples of the regular W575-1/E121 of Kelly and Schang...


Anyways, these three "serif front W575-1" cards all buck the normal trend of W575-1 cards in that while the photos are the same and that the backs are blank, they almost seem to "bridge the gap" from the earlier E135 cards and the later E121/W575-1 cards.

Now for the "NEW DISCOVERY" portion, about a week ago I was browsing ebay and came across a card that after I looked at it I could hardly believe what I was looking at but it at first appeared to be a second example of the W575-1 George Dauss card with the serif front style BUT this card was in fact NOT a W575-1 but has the regular E121 TYPE 1 back. Honestly, I never thought I would see one of these cards exhibiting a E121 back but here he is. I am really kind of at a loss for words here as this card really shouldn't exist and I have never seen another player with the serif front exhibiting an E121 back. It appears this is at least a new legitimate variation for the E121 Series of 80 collectors as it is distinctly different on front (which is what we have long considered a true variation within that set), but beyond that this also opens the door of possibilities that other players may have been made like this within the E121 set (obviously Schang and Kelly are the most likely, but still others may exist)...



I welcome any and all thoughts regarding this new card or the W575-1 "serif-style" cards.

-Rhett

[ethicsprof]

great discovery and expert detective work.
it continues to be amazing what a keen eye can bring to this fabulous world
of old cardboard.
all the best,
barry

[19cbb]

Interesting stuff.
Good work!

[kmac32]

Fun, checked all of mine and mine are the regular E121 types

[fkw]

wow, very cool Rhett, I sometimes still look for another one, you will make me start looking again. strange about being found with E121 back, I never would have guessed it too.

question, on the blank back Dauss with sharper corners, it sort of looks like the left side is handcut but the other 3 cuts look almost machine cut .... does it look that way to you in person?? ...like maybe the last card on a horizontal strip???

[Chris Counts]

I wonder if all these different cards and others that resemble them (E120, E220, W573, etc.) were designed and printed by the same company?

[brickyardkennedy]

Impressive detective work, Rhett. Thanks for sharing it!

[old-baseball]

Well done Rhett. Now I'm on the lookout for Dauss, Type IV, reversed, "serif-style"!

[rhettyeakley]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on these. I figure I'd give this one bump before it fades away to "Page 2" status.

-Rhett

[edhans]

Chalk up another one for the great Dr. Yeakley.

[brianp-beme]

Great discovery Rhett...one would almost think that, since it was issued first, the E121 series of 80 set was somewhat of a testing ground for American Caramel. Now it seems like they were not only trying different fonts on the back, but also on the front, seeing which ones worked best/pleased them. It makes you wonder that perhaps the ones with this different font and blank back (like the Kelly and Schang pictured) were actually E121 test productions without the back printing. In any event very scarce, and another reason why this group of related issues are so fun and interesting.

Brian

[Mark]

Rhett,
I really, really think that you should spend some time writing up a fully illustrated 3 volume work on the E cards and W cards from the 20's. It would not only be one of my favorite books, but it would also help spread the popularity of these endlessly surprising sets. Thanks for the careful research and generous posts.
Mark

[fkw]

just wanted to point out that Rhetts Dauss with the blank back, that looks like it may have scuffing on bottom..... is in no way a blank back E135 with the card number scuffed off... besides having a different surface finish, the E135 Dauss has "GEO." rather than the "GEORGE" thats on Rhetts card.

[wake.up.the.echoes]

Rhett,

Do I have something here, or are my eyes playing tricks on me?

I am just starting out collecting this set, and already I am confused by the subtle differences in the cards.

Please let me know if I "have" anything.

Thanks, Alan

[rhettyeakley]

You have a Type 1 reversed back and a Type 1 normal back of Faber, which happens to be an uncommon card in the Series of 80 set. We the collective E121 seekers have never really considered the reversed back variation to be another true type or anything as there was nothing else substantive changed on back. I have seen quite a few reversed backs and they typically sell for a slight premium but you would have to find someone that cared (which aren't too many). Nice companion piece to a set.

Are you going after a set, master set, team set, etc? It is a fun set to collect. Some very rare cards are found in the Series that the hobby gives very little love to. Finding a Series of 80 Alexander Gaston will be nearly impossible as I own the only one that I have ever heard of (other than the fact it was on Lew Lipset's checklist in the 1980's but it's existence was unconfirmed until recently.)

[wake.up.the.echoes]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

You have a Type 1 reversed back and a Type 1 normal back of Faber, which happens to be an uncommon card in the Series of 80 set. We the collective E121 seekers have never really considered the reversed back variation to be another true type or anything as there was nothing else substantive changed on back. I have seen quite a few reversed backs and they typically sell for a slight premium but you would have to find someone that cared (which aren't too many). Nice companion piece to a set.

Are you going after a set, master set, team set, etc? It is a fun set to collect. Some very rare cards are found in the Series that the hobby gives very little love to. Finding a Series of 80 Alexander Gaston will be nearly impossible as I own the only one that's I have ever herd of (other than the fact it was on Lew Lipset's checklist in the 1980's but it's existence was unconfirmed until recently.)

Interesting information, Rhett. And thank you for sharing. I sent you a PM re: the font on the front of the card as well. As for me, I am just starting out on this set, and I don't really know where I am going with it. For now, it's the journey rather than the destination. Will let you know when/if I decide where I am going.

[Leon]

I was doing a little research on the web and circled back to this discussion, go figure. Has anyone got a definitive list of the E121 cards with blank backs? I am inquiring about the regular block lettering, machine cut cards.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

This thread is obviously not for everyone as I doubt there are more than a handful of us that care about these things but I have made what is IMO an important new discovery...

Over the past few years there have been a few W575-1 cards that look very different than the normal W575-1 or E121 blank back. Instead of the normal "block lettering" at bottom on front they exhibit a serif style font that resembles the E135 Collins-mcCarthy or H801 Boston Store cards minus the card # at bottom. Up to this point only three players have been found exhibiting this style font, here are the images of the known checklist (Frank owns the Kelly, Brian P. owns the Schang, and I own the Dauss)...


For comparison here is an image of what a "normal" E135 card looks like along with examples of the regular W575-1/E121 of Kelly and Schang...


Anyways, these three "serif front W575-1" cards all buck the normal trend of W575-1 cards in that while the photos are the same and that the backs are blank, they almost seem to "bridge the gap" from the earlier E135 cards and the later E121/W575-1 cards.

Now for the "NEW DISCOVERY" portion, about a week ago I was browsing ebay and came across a card that after I looked at it I could hardly believe what I was looking at but it at first appeared to be a second example of the W575-1 George Dauss card with the serif front style BUT this card was in fact NOT a W575-1 but has the regular E121 TYPE 1 back. Honestly, I never thought I would see one of these cards exhibiting a E121 back but here he is. I am really kind of at a loss for words here as this card really shouldn't exist and I have never seen another player with the serif front exhibiting an E121 back. It appears this is at least a new legitimate variation for the E121 Series of 80 collectors as it is distinctly different on front (which is what we have long considered a true variation within that set), but beyond that this also opens the door of possibilities that other players may have been made like this within the E121 set (obviously Schang and Kelly are the most likely, but still others may exist)...



I welcome any and all thoughts regarding this new card or the W575-1 "serif-style" cards.

-Rhett

[Zach Wheat]

I don't actively follow this set - but this is a reason I read N54. Cool stuff Rhett.

Z

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Leon

I was doing a little research on the web and circled back to this discussion, go figure. Has anyone got a definitive list of the E121 cards with blank backs? I am inquiring about the regular block lettering, machine cut cards.

Leon, I have done some work on this myself but it is a complicated answer because in reality there are at least 5 different sets that get all grouped together as "blank backed-W575-1" and an in depth study would require differentiation between all of those to be of any real use. I can share what I have if there is interest but it will require some work.

[Leon]

Thanks Rhett. With some new info it seems the E121 type-font blank backs, at least in one case, were issued in packs of 20 and there were 4 different packs totalling 80 Base Ball Stars. And I think these will not be American Caramels. I think they will be generic and issued by different companies, including at least one newspaper. Maybe they will be M-Unc's or H-Uncs etc........

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, I have done some work on this myself but it is a complicated answer because in reality there are at least 5 different sets that get all grouped together as "blank backed-W575-1" and an in depth study would require differentiation between all of those to be of any real use. I can share what I have if there is interest but it will require some work.

[frankbmd]

You can get any font you want
At Yeakley's Restaurant.