the list (of criminals) is revealed

[RichMcGillicuddy]

It isn't rocket science. It becomes real when they start naming names.

Realize the list is after the evidence was shredded and represents couple of years worth of auctions about 8 years ago. I seem to remember getting those catalogs all the way back in the 1990's. If you think this didn't happen before and after those dates and still happens every week on eBay, stick your head back in the sand. It would be scary to get that information from eBay across the last 20 years.

Also, for the group that says "I don't have a problem with that". It distorts pricing across the whole market.

At the end of most auctions, that email goes out stating "over X million sold". Or "highest price ever for X". They have a vested interest in higher sales. The grading companies, same thing. PSA XXX sold for some new high...

It is a thinly transacted market (pre war). Some cards may have 1's or 10's data points a year (or less) of pricing data points (I don't have a membership to VCP but that would be an interesting stat to gather on the # of data points/year for some of the commonly shilled items).

Paying a BP (on a shill in the scenarios provided earlier) to get a 50%-100% bump in price makes perfect sense when the market always goes up and you could protect your investment to sell higher later.

Does everything always sell for more, no. I've had mixed results. I would expect that. But I don't have friends protecting my investment.

Does it happen 100% of the time, no. But it is much wider than the glimpse that was provided in that list.

Will it stop me from bidding on cards, no. So ultimately, it won't stop until all the money stops flowing on cards at AH or brokers on eBay that are even suspected of participating. This information is years old and Legendary was still getting lots of activity and high prices all the way to the end.

My two cents... It has been a fascinating read...

Rich McGillicuddy

[Beastmode]

My suggestion may of been over-simplified, and I can understand why some of you are worked up. I've been about as vocal as anyone against shilling and retractors. Reference my post in June of last year (not sure how to link posts).

Quote:
..."Exactly. REA/Mile High/Memory Lane/Heritage/H&S....all have one thing in common; proprietary bidding software with no transparency. If you want to make an argument about shilling, start their first"



Everyone of us has probably been shilled, some of us multiple times. It's too dam easy for these scum to do this via the internet bidding platform. IMO, shilling is still rampant at AH's; less so on e-bay.

Here's my mental health bidding tips; just my opinions, as I'm primarily a buyer:

1. Assume your are going to be shilled if you bid at an AH. Place your bid as if your going to be shilled; makes your life so much more enjoyable when you win or lose.

2. If your max bid wins an auctions and you think the underbidder is a shiller, don't cry sour grapes, see rule #1. Lower your max next time so your competing against real bidders, not shillers.

3. Learn to enjoy coming in 2nd. I'm an aggressive bidder on cards I like, but I come in 2nd a lot. In all likelihood, shilllers have won several of these auctions, which is just fine with me as long as they paid the commission. This is a hobby, not surgery. If you bid enough, you start to get a feel where shillers will bid.

4. Follow up with your AH policy on reserve bids, consigner won bids, bid history, etc. Hold them to the fire, ask for clarification in writing. Read their fine print. Do nothing verbally.

5. Do not ever say the market was artificially inflated when your bid wins an auction and you may of been shilled. See rule #1 and 2. If your max is what you are willing to pay, then you just set the market my friend.

6. If anyone associated with your AH is on the "list", stay away.

Does shilling suck, yes. Is it illegal , yes. Did the shiller drive up the price, yes. Do you want to get heart disease stressing about shillers? No. Do you have countless free hours to go after these bastards, hire a lawyer and go to civil court? No. Then bid what you think the card is worth, then move on and let the shillers rot in hell. that's my point

[ullmandds]

Shill shillery shill shillery shill shill shillroo!

Originally Posted by Beastmode

My suggestion may of been over-simplified, and I can understand why some of you are worked up. I've been about as vocal as anyone against shilling and retractors. Reference my post in June of last year (not sure how to link posts).

Quote:
..."Exactly. REA/Mile High/Memory Lane/Heritage/H&S....all have one thing in common; proprietary bidding software with no transparency. If you want to make an argument about shilling, start their first"



Everyone of us has probably been shilled, some of us multiple times. It's too dam easy for these scum to do this via the internet bidding platform. IMO, shilling is still rampant at AH's; less so on e-bay.

Here's my mental health bidding tips; just my opinions, as I'm primarily a buyer:

1. Assume your are going to be shilled if you bid at an AH. Place your bid as if your going to be shilled; makes your life so much more enjoyable when you win or lose.

2. If your max bid wins an auctions and you think the underbidder is a shiller, don't cry sour grapes, see rule #1. Lower your max next time so your competing against real bidders, not shillers.

3. Learn to enjoy coming in 2nd. I'm an aggressive bidder on cards I like, but I come in 2nd a lot. In all likelihood, shilllers have won several of these auctions, which is just fine with me as long as they paid the commission. This is a hobby, not surgery. If you bid enough, you start to get a feel where shillers will bid.

4. Follow up with your AH policy on reserve bids, consigner won bids, bid history, etc. Hold them to the fire, ask for clarification in writing. Read their fine print. Do nothing verbally.

5. Do not ever say the market was artificially inflated when your bid wins an auction and you may of been shilled. See rule #1 and 2. If your max is what you are willing to pay, then you just set the market my friend.

6. If anyone associated with your AH is on the "list", stay away.

Does shilling suck, yes. Is it illegal , yes. Did the shiller drive up the price, yes. Do you want to get heart disease stressing about shillers? No. Do you have countless free hours to go after these bastards, hire a lawyer and go to civil court? No. Then bid what you think the card is worth, then move on and let the shillers rot in hell. that's my point

[Vintagefun]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Shill shillery shill shillery shill shill shillroo!

Why take a C Note when I can take two

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by RichMcGillicuddy

It isn't rocket science. It becomes real when they start naming names.

Realize the list is after the evidence was shredded and represents couple of years worth of auctions about 8 years ago. I seem to remember getting those catalogs all the way back in the 1990's. If you think this didn't happen before and after those dates and still happens every week on eBay, stick your head back in the sand. It would be scary to get that information from eBay across the last 20 years.

Also, for the group that says "I don't have a problem with that". It distorts pricing across the whole market.

At the end of most auctions, that email goes out stating "over X million sold". Or "highest price ever for X". They have a vested interest in higher sales. The grading companies, same thing. PSA XXX sold for some new high...

It is a thinly transacted market (pre war). Some cards may have 1's or 10's data points a year (or less) of pricing data points (I don't have a membership to VCP but that would be an interesting stat to gather on the # of data points/year for some of the commonly shilled items).

Paying a BP (on a shill in the scenarios provided earlier) to get a 50%-100% bump in price makes perfect sense when the market always goes up and you could protect your investment to sell higher later.

Does everything always sell for more, no. I've had mixed results. I would expect that. But I don't have friends protecting my investment.

Does it happen 100% of the time, no. But it is much wider than the glimpse that was provided in that list.

Will it stop me from bidding on cards, no. So ultimately, it won't stop until all the money stops flowing on cards at AH or brokers on eBay that are even suspected of participating. This information is years old and Legendary was still getting lots of activity and high prices all the way to the end.

My two cents... It has been a fascinating read...

Rich McGillicuddy

will said

[drcy]

Also remember that Mastro was taped as saying (according to him) that most of the high grade cards in holders are altered. I, for one, think the whole high grade section of the hobby is a farce and a crock.

In psychology there is a concept called swarm intelligence. I've often said that humans often exhibit swarm stupidity.

[1880nonsports]

- you don't know it. It only bothers other people. It's the same when you're stupid.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

- you don't know it. It only bothers other people. It's the same when you're stupid.

Now that is funny.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

Now that is funny.

+1

[mooch]

It's been pretty quite y'all. Do my fellow collectors feel, as I do, that we need some closure on this episode? We haven't seen many step up and take responsibility. There have been some serious charges leveled against TPGs in particular. Although millions are at stake for them, I see no response. As a small fish, why should I put in a $100-$300 plastic order with TPGs any more? As a non-dealer, and therefore a potential victim of shilling, I am feeling pretty bad about buying any card over $20 and the hobby in general. I feel like focusing my collecting on low-grade and cheap cards. Do other hobby collectors feel this way?

[mickeymao34]

If anyone have the time check out the air waves of the other Forum. They are refusing to post the List and saying posting of list breaks forum rules and denying members access to the list (with great reason). The Mods are out like secret police and the backlash is will noted. The last comment from a Mod in response to a question as to why does a Card forum have a on-going discussion about this and allowed to post the List. Trying to quell the restless, the Mod implies that Mastro was more of a Card auction house and the scandal is more isolated to cards vs game used items. Hilarious. The posts of the members sound like the disenchanted populous before the Revolution.

[bbeck]

Can't wait for the next Hauls Of Shame. Should be a good one.

[Joshchisox08]

Not sure if anyone posted this as I haven't payed too much attention to this thread but:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ya...ampaign=buffer

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Not sure if anyone posted this as I haven't payed too much attention to this thread but:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ya...ampaign=buffer

I posted that a while back in this long and winding road thread

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I posted that a while back in this long and winding road thread

Yes, always the contrarian instigator. Nice....

[HobokenJon]

Something to keep in mind in the discussion about Forman: It isn't a surprise that his name appeared on the list as a shill bidder. He accused Mastro in a 2010 lawsuit of using "unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals," according to a trade press article at the time. (Pasted in full, below.)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/

Looking back six years later, Forman's allegations were on the mark. I'd say give him the benefit of the doubt for now. A lot of people whose names showed up on the same list may be in the same boat.

To be sure, I'm uncomfortable with Forman's involvement as a market participant. He shouldn't be buying and selling collectibles that his company grades. The same goes for David Hall. It undermines their credibility and integrity, which hurts all of us.


SGC Boss Claims Shill Bidding in Counter Suit
February 8, 2010 By Rich Mueller

Seven months after being sued for money they say he owed them, SGC president Dave Forman has submitted a counterclaim against Mastro Auctions.

The court papers filed January 27 accuse the parent company of the now defunct auction house of several transgressions including shill bidding, a practice that artificially raises bids to generate a higher profit.

The counterclaim obtained by Sports Collectors Daily also states that a grand jury was convened in Chicago last month to see evidence and hear testimony on issues centered around an FBI investigation of unethical practices within the sports collecting hobby.

Forman, the owner of one of the hobby’s largest card grading and authentication services, also claims the auction company knowingly sold him a T200 Fatima Premium Cleveland Americans card that had been altered.

Mastro Auctions, which shut down last year, filed suit against Forman in the same Illinois state court last June, seeking $400,000 it says he owes. In 2007 and 2008, Mastro claims Forman purchased cards but didn’t pay for them. Forman claims Ketap (the name of the corporation that once did business as Mastro Auctions) has not produced receipts in support of those allegations and disputes that figure.

Forman claims the amount he owes Mastro was in error because his account with the auction house was never credited with proceeds from the sale of several lots he had consigned, including a 1934-36 Diamond Stars complete set, a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth graded PSA 7, a T206 Buck Herzog graded SGC 88 and four rare comic books.

The suit indicates the grading and authentication service owner and the auction house had a long-standing relationship that involved Forman buying and selling cards. Ketap claimed in its suit that “dozens” of rare collectible items and memorabilia were bought and sold by Forman.

Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals.

“Ketap and its officers knowingly conducted rampant fraud through a process known as shill bidding,” the claim states.

Forman claims that in a 2006 auction “a Ketap employee shill bid on a Ted Williams baseball card when, upon information and belief, he neither had the money or interest in owning it.”

Another of Forman’s shill bidding allegations states that in May of 2006, company officials artificially raised the bidding for an L-1 Leather Ty Cobb. “The item was then selling for $17,000,” the court papers state. “During that converstion, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum bid of $41,000 for that item. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector’s maximum bid. Upon information and belief the $41,000 bid was the result of shill bidding effectuated by Mastro and Ketap.”

Forman also claims Mastro Auctions allowed various consignors to look at the ceiling bid information during its auction in the fall of 2007 and alleges that while Mastro promoted a “no reserve” auction, selected consignors were allowed to have reserves on their items.

Mastro Auctions was in the process of ending its run as one of the hobby’s top auction houses when Forman also claims it sold a Jackie Robinson rookie card graded 98 by his company, and a 1911 T205 Ty Cobb card graded 84, without his permission. Forman claims the items sold for significantly less than the $125,000 minimum he would have accepted.

The counterclaim and third-party complaint filed by Forman and his attorneys, seeks punitive damages and attorney’s fees.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

Something to keep in mind in the discussion about Forman: It isn't a surprise that his name appeared on the list as a shill bidder. He accused Mastro in a 2010 lawsuit of using "unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals," according to a trade press article at the time. (Pasted in full, below.)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/

Looking back six years later, Forman's allegations were on the mark. I'd say give him the benefit of the doubt for now. A lot of people whose names showed up on the same list may be in the same boat.

To be sure, I'm uncomfortable with Forman's involvement as a market participant. He shouldn't be buying and selling collectibles that his company grades. The same goes for David Hall. It undermines their credibility and integrity, which hurts all of us.


SGC Boss Claims Shill Bidding in Counter Suit
February 8, 2010 By Rich Mueller

Seven months after being sued for money they say he owed them, SGC president Dave Forman has submitted a counterclaim against Mastro Auctions.

The court papers filed January 27 accuse the parent company of the now defunct auction house of several transgressions including shill bidding, a practice that artificially raises bids to generate a higher profit.

The counterclaim obtained by Sports Collectors Daily also states that a grand jury was convened in Chicago last month to see evidence and hear testimony on issues centered around an FBI investigation of unethical practices within the sports collecting hobby.

Forman, the owner of one of the hobby’s largest card grading and authentication services, also claims the auction company knowingly sold him a T200 Fatima Premium Cleveland Americans card that had been altered.

Mastro Auctions, which shut down last year, filed suit against Forman in the same Illinois state court last June, seeking $400,000 it says he owes. In 2007 and 2008, Mastro claims Forman purchased cards but didn’t pay for them. Forman claims Ketap (the name of the corporation that once did business as Mastro Auctions) has not produced receipts in support of those allegations and disputes that figure.

Forman claims the amount he owes Mastro was in error because his account with the auction house was never credited with proceeds from the sale of several lots he had consigned, including a 1934-36 Diamond Stars complete set, a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth graded PSA 7, a T206 Buck Herzog graded SGC 88 and four rare comic books.

The suit indicates the grading and authentication service owner and the auction house had a long-standing relationship that involved Forman buying and selling cards. Ketap claimed in its suit that “dozens” of rare collectible items and memorabilia were bought and sold by Forman.

Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals.

“Ketap and its officers knowingly conducted rampant fraud through a process known as shill bidding,” the claim states.

Forman claims that in a 2006 auction “a Ketap employee shill bid on a Ted Williams baseball card when, upon information and belief, he neither had the money or interest in owning it.”

Another of Forman’s shill bidding allegations states that in May of 2006, company officials artificially raised the bidding for an L-1 Leather Ty Cobb. “The item was then selling for $17,000,” the court papers state. “During that converstion, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum bid of $41,000 for that item. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector’s maximum bid. Upon information and belief the $41,000 bid was the result of shill bidding effectuated by Mastro and Ketap.”

Forman also claims Mastro Auctions allowed various consignors to look at the ceiling bid information during its auction in the fall of 2007 and alleges that while Mastro promoted a “no reserve” auction, selected consignors were allowed to have reserves on their items.

Mastro Auctions was in the process of ending its run as one of the hobby’s top auction houses when Forman also claims it sold a Jackie Robinson rookie card graded 98 by his company, and a 1911 T205 Ty Cobb card graded 84, without his permission. Forman claims the items sold for significantly less than the $125,000 minimum he would have accepted.

The counterclaim and third-party complaint filed by Forman and his attorneys, seeks punitive damages and attorney’s fees.

Uh...his brother was his shill bidder on nearly every item. What did Mastro say to him when his item didn't sell? Obviously if he wasn't doing the shilling he knew it was going on for a long time before any suit was brought forth.

[HobokenJon]

You're jumping to conclusions, as far as Forman's involvement in shill bidding, or lack thereof. We don't have enough facts to know what happened -- except we do know what he alleged six years ago. The best thing Forman could do now is tell his side of the story publicly. That's crisis management 101. That said, as I said before, he shouldn't have been trafficking in collectibles that SGC grades in the first place. If he'd stuck with that policy, he wouldn't be in this position -- nor would collectors who own SGC-graded cards. From a reputational standpoint, it also doesn't help that he's moving the company to Boca Raton, which is the world's largest unfenced penitentiary and the country's most notorious haven for penny-stock frauds, boiler rooms and other investment scams.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

You're jumping to conclusions, as far as Forman's involvement in shill bidding, or lack thereof. We don't have enough facts to know what happened -- except we do know what he alleged six years ago. The best thing Forman could do now is tell his side of the story publicly. That's crisis management 101. That said, as I said before, he shouldn't have been trafficking in collectibles that SGC grades in the first place. If he'd stuck with that policy, he wouldn't be in this position -- nor would collectors who own SGC-graded cards. From a reputational standpoint, it also doesn't help that he's moving the company to Boca Raton, which is the world's largest unfenced penitentiary and the country's most notorious haven for penny-stock frauds, boiler rooms and other investment scams.

Well, if the white collar fits...

So, how's BVG looking as a grading option?