Super Rare T206....EPDG Lundgren (Cubs) on ebay

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

For anyone is interested in a really RARE T206 front/back combo......a Carl Lundgren (Cubs) with an El Principe de Gales back is
currently listed on Ebay. It is a PSA 4 card that is the only one in their POP report....period.
Here's the ebay link....

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-T-206-Carl-Lundgren-Chicago-RARE-Cubs-Shrit-PSA-4_W0QQitemZ220162405410

It is the only one I've seen since I acquired mine back in 1984. For those of you that love to collect tough front/back combos
I highly recommend this card. In terms of scarcity, I would rank it up there with the Doyle error and the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back.

Good Luck,

TED Z

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Posted By: Dave S

With all respect Ted, why would you out this auction??!!

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Thanks for the heads-up.

Frank

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Posted By: cmoking

Ted, does both the KC and the Cubs variation come with an EPDG back? My data is from a while ago, but I had copied from SGC's site that they graded 7 EPDG Carl Lundgren - but they don't separate between the variations.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'll bet you $$$$ to donuts that all those SGC graded Lundgren's are the KC versions.

I'm really surprised that SGC doesn't identify them, since SGC has always been on the forefront by labeling the T206 backs & year
on their flip.

Thanks for your info....yes, the Lundgren (KC) with an EPDG back is a commonly seen card.

Conversely, the Lundgren (Cubs with an EPDG is super-rare....I have one and this one on ebay is only the 2nd one I've ever seen.
And, I have been searching for a 2nd one for 23 years.

TED Z

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Posted By: cmoking

Thanks Ted. For some reason, SGC has software problems in identifying the player poses. For example, they have all the Cobbs populations under the same line. Hopefully some day they'll get that fixed.

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Posted By: Martin Neal

Why is it that the toughest card in the T205 set isn't listed in SGC's registry? They do list the Wallace (one line) but not the Hoblitzell (no stats).

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DAVE S....."With all respect Ted, why would you out this auction??!!"

How did I "out" this....when it's clearly out there for all to see on ebay ?

If I affected your bidding on it, I'm very sorry.....But, don't you think there are other T206 collectors out there that realize how
very rare this particular card is ?

I expect some brisk bidding on it.....I'll be very surprised if this card doesn't go for a 4-digit figure.

TED Z

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Posted By: Dave S

Whatever, Ted...I guess it's how you look at it and what one considers "outing"...obviously u think differently than I do..
IMHO, I think it's safe to say that if certain members had put the post up during the course of the listing, they would undoubtedly be chastised for doing so..
So it's now OK to post any listing on Ebay during it's course? Think I've seen quite a few past posts on that issue...

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Posted By: MVSNYC

ted- i usually agree with what you say & do...but, i was also surprised to see that you posted a thread about a current auction...i thought it was an unofficial rule or generally understood that it's a no-no...seems like more and more people are doing this...

whatever, not a big deal...

i doubt it will bring 4 figures, my guess on hammer price is between $600-700...but we'll see.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi King,
Here is a KC variation with an EPDG back I picked up on Ebay last week.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-Carl-Lundgren-K-C-El-Principe-De-Ga_W0QQitemZ330176829184QQihZ014QQcategoryZ31718QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

While agree with Ted that the Cubs card is much tougher to find with this back than the KC, I don't think there are great numbers of either one...

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

As you said...."..seems like more and more people are doing this.."; therefore, I didn't think it was a "no-no".

It was more of just my enthusiasm to finally see this front/back combo....since I was beginning to think I was the only one in the hobby
to have this card after looking for another one for 23 years (and seeing 500+ Lundgren T206's).

I really don't subsribe to POP reports....but, regarding this Lundgren, this time I must admit a POP report of only ONE graded (period)
is quite accurate.

TED Z

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Now if it was me and I thought I had the only one I would keep it quiet, buy the second one, keep the best one and burn the other.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I was outbid on one on EBAY about 4-5 years ago. The card was raw and in VG+ condition, so there are at least 3 and probably a few more hiding in those "old" ungraded T206 sets... Be well Brian

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Ted- let me just say, it's so NOT a big deal...i really don't care...but since the conversation is coming up...here are my views on outing live auctions...

if i were you, i would have contained your excitement for a few more days & kept it a little quite, and bid hard on it, and hoped that brian w or myself or some other T206 collectors didn't see it and you would have won it cheaper, now there are 1000's of eyes on it...so in the end you hurt possibly yourself (if you were intending on bidding on it) or brian or others, who were trying to keep it a little quiet...

i know some people think just because an auction is listed in the proper category that EVERYONE in the collecting world sees it...this is so NOT true...many of us travel a lot and do not check out eBay 7 times a day like many do...so sometimes collectors can get lucky when others are away or busy and didn't see certain cards...

gabeesh?

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Posted By: Brian

<<so in the end you hurt possibly yourself (if you were intending on bidding on it) or brian or others, who were trying to keep it a little quiet...>>

I'd say outing this auction helps anyone holding this card. This card will go for MUCH more than it would have otherwise. A public sale with a record price? Whoever else is holding this card is making money by proxy. Who does a higher price on this card benefit? The seller? yes. Other people that own the card? yes.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

If I understand your latest post correctly....and, if you are interested in this card....then we have a "Catch-22" situation here.
That is.....had I not brought this card to your attention, you would have, in all probability been unaware of it (being too busy,
as you alluded to). And, if that's the case, then why are you "lecturing" me ?

This is the 1st time I have "outed" an ebay item in the 2 1/2 years I've been on Net54....and, I am certainly not the only one
who has done this on this board. I did say I'm sorry and let's leave it at that.

But, I will remind you that there are many more T206 collectors out there in the hinterlands than on this forum. We Net54ers
are just the exposed portion of a huge "ICEBERG" of T206 collectors out there in this world....and many of the 6/7ths of these
other collectors are just as knowledgeable as we are.

TED Z

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Is that 6/7 figure a good estimate of the % of non-web savvy T206 and old time collectors? It would not surprise me if 75-80% are in that category on the pre war stuff but what day you all?

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

It may not seem like a big deal, but if "outing" an auction only brings in 1 or 2 additional bidders who would not have aware of a particular card, these 1 or 2 bidders could drastically affect the closing price.

I have spent countless hours studing the Standard Catalog, reading posts on Net54, and studying ebay auctions, and sometimes I do find a real bargain on cards that are flying under the radar, so I for one would appreciate it if auctions were not mentioned until they ended.

Rick

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Posted By: CN

THE MAIN REASON OUTING AN AUCTION IS WRONG IS THAT THE PERSON OUTING THE AUCTION MIGHT HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THE AUCTION. IN THIS CASE TED WAS ENTHUSED TO SEE A RARE CARD AND FELT THE NEED TO LET OTHERS KNOW ABOUT. THIS GIVES EVERYONE A FAIR SHOT AT IT NOT JUST THE COMPUTER SAVVY MEMBERS. I AM NOT A FAN OF OUTING AUCTIONS WHILE STILL ONGOING BUT WHAT TED DID WAS TRY TO SHARE SOME INFORMATION ABOUT A RARE CARD. CN

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Posted By: MVSNYC

ted- like i said no big deal...

and i do think your intentions were good, as someone just pointed out..."IN THIS CASE TED WAS ENTHUSED TO SEE A RARE CARD AND FELT THE NEED TO LET OTHERS KNOW ABOUT"...

p.s. i think i actually did a similar thing by first mentioning the Hunt DRUM find here...

i was excited and wanted to share it with others...

so ted- no harm done, no hard feelings...

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Posted By: cmoking

Brian, thanks for the link, that's a really great looking card, congrats!

FWIW, I have no problems with Ted or anyone else outing an auction. They are trying to share and give information to other collectors, how can that be wrong? I'm not bidding on the EPDG Lundgren, but I'm still interested in knowing the details of how tough it is, and watching what happens.

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Posted By: Dave S

I shared Ted's enthusiasm on the card, and I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here...or making any personal vendetta against Ted...but consider this:

The card was listed Oct 20. At the time of Ted's post, the bid was $330. Now it's $720, with 3+ days to go. Certainly don't think the fact that it doubled in 12 hours is merely a coincidence..

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Posted By: Eric

Make that $810

Will be interesting to see where this ends.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i'm sure jaysace now shares Ted's enthusiasm too...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- I had at least two examples of Lundgren with EPDG over the years, so I wouldn't think it was that impossible.

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

Hey all Ted is a stand up great guy who is just excited to share his knowledge with the board. If I hear one more person whimper up then I will out all of the hidden gems on ebay! ;)


Jason

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HEY GUYS....

CN....you are a voice of "sanity" here, as you hit the nail dead center on my thinking....THANKS.

BARRY S and BRIAN W....so between us 3, we have had, or seen just 5 of these Lundgren/EPDG cards in over 25
years.....is that a correct number ? Man, that few cards is approaching Joe Doyle error territory !

And, how many T206's have we seen during that time period....can I say 50,000 T206's between the 3 of us ? ?

DAVE H.....Yes, from what I've gleaned here, the Net54 - T206 set collector population is no greater than 1/7 th
of all the worldwide T206 set collectors.

Look guys, as I have said, I've had this card since 1984....I do not need a 2nd example....and, my Grandson will
inherit my collection. Therefore, I did not "out" this auction for any "mercenary" reasons; as, one or two of you
have alluded to.

And finally....speaking about "outing an ongoing ebay auction"....isn't this exactly what Leon does, every time he
runs his Net54 CONTESTS ? ?

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- didn't you get yours from me, a very long time ago?

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Posted By: leon

I usually pick a card that is a featured item, which is at the top of the category all of the time so it's not too "outed"....However, I get carte blanche since it's house rules

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You might be correct, that I bought my Lundgren from you. I do recall that I wanted to get an EPDG back.
And, I do recall paying $85 for this card....which was a lot to pay for a non-Cobb T206 back in 1984.
The Red Cobb in Nr Mint condition was selling for $125 back in 1984.

You and I made a lot of deals between us back then; and, I remember most but uncertain about this card.
Anyhow, I'll defer to your recollection....which means that you've only seen one more Lundgren/Cubs/EPDG.

Therefore, one other for you, one for Brian W, the one I acquired from you, and the current one on ebay.
That totals only 4.....mighty "Slim Pickens" I'd say....from a population of 50,000+ T206's between us.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Point well taken. 4 appearances is pretty rare indeed.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Seems to me that winning an auction should be a matter of money. The folks who whine about outing an auction want to inject a game aspect of it, kinda like Hide and Seek. I understand why they'd be upset... sure, I'd love it if I was the only bidder every time I bid on something on eBay, or other auctions. I've posted recently about how I don't see that outing an auction is such a big crime.

It is an auction over there on eBay, not a detective game.

So good eye, Ted, for finding that. The shame now is that some collectors are more stirred up about auction outing than they are about learning of scarce front/back combinations in the white border set.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I cheked my records and the last Lundgren/EPDG back sold on Ebay was sold on Oct 14, 2004. Here is the link, but of course the info is know gone.... Be well Brian

Watched item ending in the next 5 hours :

1909-1911 T206 CARL LUNDGREN CHICAGO CUBS EL PRINCIPE..

$36.01 (6 bids)
Ends Oct-14-04 19:24:00 PDT

Notice the low price.... I got out sniped.... which is better than being snipped..

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Posted By: cmoking

Maybe not as tough as previously thought. A second one auctioned off within a couple of weeks?

http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=32&lot_num=642&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

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Posted By: David R

I had the same questions. It's hard to tell with PSA because they don't differentiate by the back, but I know for a lot of my EPDGs, the SGC population reports show very low populations of EPDGs:

Admiral Schlei - 1/205
Tom Jones - 2/61
Mickey Doolin - 2/41
Claude Ritchey - 1/64
Ed Karger - 2/37
Mike Donlin - 3/41

David R

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Very nice card....but, I still contend that this Lundgren/Cubs/EPDG card is extremely scarce.
The appearance of two recently, doesn't alter my feeling. I'll chalk it off to the old "bunching
syndrome".

How many times have you searched for a particular tough card......and, finally you acquire it.
Suddenly....call it "Murphy's Law", or whatever....one or two more examples of your card be-
come available.
It's happened to me several times in the past 30+ years.....it's a strange phenomena.

TED Z

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Posted By: Jeff Kennedy

So who won it??? I am sure that it was a fellow board member after all the hype that it got here a couple weeks ago.

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Posted By: cmoking

Ted, I agree with you, seems to happen to me too. But I think its a matter of memory - we remember when the second one comes about because we're kicking ourselves for paying such a high price on the first. If a second one doesn't show up, we forget about it. Its the same syndrome as "I'm so unlucky, I remember all the bad things that's happened to me" (meanwhile, forgetting about all the good things). I know I fall into that trap from time to time.

As for this card, I bid $350 - $400 (I forget), it wasn't even close as it ended at around $840 before the juice.

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Posted By: Pat R.

The guy who brought this card and thread to life is what this hobby should be all about. T-Rex is all about the passion of the cards and the game........and not the $$$$. I still think I am the "high-scorer" on his pin-ball machine.

And the guy that won it is another class act (seriously)..............stop crying poor mouth JFK.

Can't agree more about the whiners on this thread. It's called "Efficient Market Hypothesis." That is, assuming there are no shenanigans going on, the market is "informationally efficient", or that prices already reflect all known information and therefore are unbiased in the sense that they reflect the collective beliefs of all. We all have the internet and access this information. The "garage-sale find" is an anomaly these days on the 'net.

Nobody had a chance against JFK anyway.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Nice post, Pat. That is part of why I see no great sin in 'outing' an auction. Let me get this right in my head, outing an auction where a card has problems so it helps bidders but is bad for the seller is acceptable; but outing an auction on a small treasure so it helps the seller but increases competition for the bidders is unacceptable. Nuts!

Ted, I think some of the bunching is just that. Sometimes, when something sells well, a fellow who has one (or two) takes notice, digs his out of his collection, and then tries to sell while the market is hot. I've seen it, too... And it seems that if 'we' talk about a certain card very much on this board, then a few will appear on eBay. Maybe they were there all along, and my awareness of them is heightened by the publicity.

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Posted By: Matt

Frank said:
"Let me get this right in my head, outing an auction where a card has problems so it helps bidders but is bad for the seller is acceptable; but outing an auction on a small treasure so it helps the seller but increases competition for the bidders is unacceptable. Nuts!"

That's a clever (but intellectually dishonest) thing you've done there - using the words "where a card has problems" instead of saying "where the seller is trying to cheat the buyer."

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Really great to see your post here......I know that you are an occasional "reader" of Net54.....and, thanks for the kind words.

What Pat is alluding to here...."still think I am the "high-scorer" on his pin-ball machine."....goes back to 1988 when Pat was
the first guy to score over 300 runs on my 1940's BB Pin Ball machine. But since then, in 1993 Mark Macrae scored 502 runs,
Kim Vida scored 523 runs, and I have racked up 560 runs.

I should post a Thread on this classic BB machine. It stands 7 ft. high and measures 6 ft. long. Most of the "dinosaurs" on Net54
will remember this machine....it has 3 HR decks, plastic figures that run around the bases, and you hit steel balls with a powerful
swinging bat. It was produced by United of Chicago and is the "Babe Ruth" of BB machines.

This Pin Ball machine is still operational, Pat....you are welcome to top my score, anytime guy.

Best regards to you and your family.

TED Z

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Posted By: Jeff Kennedy

Ted- I echo your sentiments in regards to the likes of Pat R. He was one of my first "true" friends in the hobby and I dearly miss the likes of him on this board. So much has changed around here with the board and the hobby itself and seeing Pat post makes me wish things were like they use to be. Geez....that is pretty darn sentimental.

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Posted By: dennis

http://www.marvin3m.com/baseball/index.htm

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for the link....very informative and with some nice pictures.

I think I will start a thread on Pin Ball machines.

TED Z

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Posted By: Keyway

Just took out my Lundgren with EPDG back, Cubs on shirt. Graded SGC 30.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

KEYWAY

Thanks.....and, can I ask you when you acquired this rare card ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

We are starting to see exactly what I referred to as the ""bunching syndrome".....or phenomena.

I first observed this phenomena back in the late '70s when the 1952 Topps Mantle card was touted as one of the "rarest" post-
war cards. And indeed, you didn't see that many at BB card shows (it's average price back then was $500).

Then in the Summer of 1980 an auction held in the Philadelphia area sold three 52T Mantle cards together for an unprecedented
$10,000. This event was plastered on the front page of the Philly Inquirer and within 6 months of this event, 100's of 52T Mantle
cards were coming out of the woodwork.

TED Z

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Posted By: keyway

Ted; I have had that card since the mid 80's. Just sent it to be graded with a bunch of others about 6 months ago. Have been a collector since 1980. Love the old stuff.