1956 Mickey Mantle PSA 7 Rare HIGH END HIGH Grade

[CollectiblesNJ]

$1700 Shipped OBO Must been member in good standing. Will bill through paypal invoice. We will pay the 3% fee out of sale price

buyerz_paradise on Ebay TRS+ check us out

according to the PSA number - Graded before implementation of half point system, could be 7.5 on re-grade

Would consider trade but would have to be some lot

[corvette1340]

That looks like a fake slab you have there. Not sure if the card is fake or not but even if its real its no better than a 5 at most and it's probably fake too.

[CollectiblesNJ]

ok pal. have another drink

[JollyElm]

Agreed. On top is a legitimate '56 Mantle graded by PSA (not my card) the old way with the number next to the description of condition. Below it is the OP's card.

I'm certainly no expert, so I present this only for everyone's edification, but among the glaring differences on the flips are:
1. Square corners on the white portion vs. rounded corners.
2. Completely different UPC (?) code look, feel, size and positioning.
3. Different typefaces/weight throughout.
4. Type is much too close to the border on one side and much too far away from it on the other.
5. Type is spaced differently from the borders on top and bottom.
6. Different typeface/size for "PSA."

56mantle.jpg

[orioles93]

Slab looks wrong to me to. I have been collecting, and buying & selling PSA cards for a while and something just looks off. My guess is, authentic card, lower condition probably PSA 4-5, put into a fake PSA 7 slab.

[JollyElm]

I now checked ebay and saw quite a few 1956 PSA graded cards that have similar flips to the OP's. I'm talking about a variety of different players, not just Mantle. To ease everyone's mind, we need someone with a knowledge of PSA flips to chime in here.

[CollectiblesNJ]

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=846031

This shows the flips throughout the ages.

This was cut in early 2000s according to seller, an practicing attorney in California. Flip style 3. Cert Matches. No frosting. I looked into all this before I purchased the card.

He emailed me with his law firm in the signature of his correspondence.

I mean don't get me wrong I could have been cleverly scammed. but I did my home work. This cert is not for sale anywhere else nor was ever sold from what I can find

[corvette1340]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=89073&page=13

http://bbcemporium.com/california-craigs-list-psa-scam

[sflayank]

fake

[vintage954]

Wow, I cannot believe someone would even try and pass that off as a real NM 7. I'm gonna have to start really watching my purchases if this turns out to be true

[Peter_Spaeth]

Were flips with holograms faked?

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Were flips with holograms faked?

Yes, they crack the entire slab so if it was a hologram slab it is just a junker card opened up. Here is an excerpt from BBCE:

The scam, which originated in California, involved selling high dollar counterfeit cards in legitimate PSA holders. First, the scam artists buy several low dollar PSA graded cards. Next, they “crack” the cards out by separating the PSA holders at the seam. Even though PSA claims to have a “tamper evident” holder, it is quite easy to open the holder without damaging it. Once the holder is opened, the “flip” (label) and card are removed and replaced with a counterfeit card and flip. Finally, using a clear adhesive, the holder is resealed and ready to be sold.

All of the fake flips utilize legitimate cert numbers, so if the cards are looked up in PSA database, they will match the card in the holder, but realize these numbers can be easily obtained and have no meaning on determining whether the card is authentic or not.


The cards used in the scam are higher dollar mid-hi grade examples that are high in demand. Below is a list of cards most commonly found in the scam:

T206 Cobb Re portrait PSA 6
t206 Cobb Bat on PSA 6
1933 Goudey Ruth #53 PSA 5
1933 Goudey Lou Gehrig #92 PSA6
1934 Goudey Gehrig PSA5
1951 Bowman Mantle PSA 4
1952 Bowman Mantle PSA 6
1954 Aaron PSA 7
1954 Aaron PSA 6
1955 Clemente PSA6
1956 Mantle PSA 7

[Taxman]

Font looks wrong and a lot of space between beginning of font and left border on the flip.

[bobbyw8469]

I thought the card was a really bad card for a '7' grade, but I kept my mouth shut. It didn't have any of the qualities that make a card a '7'. I feel sorry that the poster got stuck with a fake card.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I thought the card was a really bad card for a '7' grade, but I kept my mouth shut.

Me too. I saw the card last night as soon as it was listed. I thought it better not to say anything. I'm glad others see what I see.

[shammus]

We don't normally allow interference on BST listings, however, this time, since the authenticity of the slab is in question (I agree btw, I'm seeing some things on the slab/label I've never seen before out of PSA such as those rounded corners), and possibly even the authenticity of the card, I think it's ok to keep the discussion going.

To the original poster, would a resubmission to PSA be out of the question? Any ideas on the history of the card?

[CollectiblesNJ]

I have been in contact with the seller. I bought this card on ebay via auction with intentions on reselling it.

They told me they had bought it on ebay themselves already graded a little over a year ago.

I am returning the card to him as it was only purchased 3 days ago. item # (251292145417)

He said he contacted PSA and they said the number came back to the correct cert and "supposedly" looked at the pictures in the forum and on ebay and said that the card was authentic and was graded over 10 years ago.

I called and they said they would need to have the card sent in to them to determine if it was authentic. They were non committal on the phone with me.

Because of the substantial amount of money involved I have to return this card to the seller so we likely will not get a decision from PSA reported in this thread.

All I can say is this card is pretty condition sensitive so I do not think that it is impossible that this is a genuine 7. It really is a decent looking card. The whole situation is unfortunate

I also do not know the grading curve they had in play 12-13 years ago when the cert number says the card was graded

I had a 4.5 on one with 4 badly punched corners and 80/20 centering that I submitted myself.

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by Buyerz_Paradise

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=846031

This shows the flips throughout the ages.

This was cut in early 2000s according to seller, an practicing attorney in California. Flip style 3. Cert Matches. No frosting. I looked into all this before I purchased the card.

He emailed me with his law firm in the signature of his correspondence.

I mean don't get me wrong I could have been cleverly scammed. but I did my home work. This cert is not for sale anywhere else nor was ever sold from what I can find

Once the words "practicing in California" was uttered the gun was unloaded on your foot. I hate to see people getting scammed (not saying you're the scammer at all). It's crazy what people will do for a quick buck.

[brian29575]

Using app on my phone, the Barcode scans correctly, so that has to be a good sign.

Card looks like it meets PSA 7 standards to me

[bobbyw8469]

Card looks like it meets PSA 7 standards to me

Then I had a '6.5' that should have been a '9' of this card then, cause it blew the doors off that '7'. I suggest a vision check with your local physician immediately.

[Zact]

The slab does not look compromised. The pins are not popped, there is no frosting on the edges of the case, There is a PSA trademark in the bottom right plastic. Some of the older PSA flips do have the red rounded corners and variable typesets. There is a history of PSA flip thread over on the CU boards- This one does look like the flip type #3 when you compare. I am not so sure this is a fake.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by Zact

The slab does not look compromised. The pins are not popped, there is no frosting on the edges of the case, There is a PSA trademark in the bottom right plastic. Some of the older PSA flips do have the red rounded corners and variable typesets. There is a history of PSA flip thread over on the CU boards- This one does look like the flip type #3 when you compare. I am not so sure this is a fake.

Slabs can contain an alternate card and have no frosting when the slab never came from PSA in the first place. Their slabs mold is rather easy to replicate currently.

[Zact]

If they are manufacturing replica slabs that are almost identical to the real thing- that is really scary. It is going to get more difficult to spot the fakes.
If I were to purchase any high end cards- would probably only acquire through highly reputable dealers / auction houses/ and or individuals. Luckily more than half of my registry PSA slabs are self submitted so I am good on those.

[brian29575]

Then I had a '6.5' that should have been a '9' of this card then, cause it blew the doors off that '7'. I suggest a vision check with your local physician immediately.
**

Bobby I found a Doctor open today and he said my vision is 20/15 and agreed the card meets psa 7 standards.

Thanks for the advice. Pretty sure I can find PSA 7 cards that look similar to this one.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by brian29575

Bobby I found a Doctor open today and he said my vision is 20/15 and agreed the card meets psa 7 standards.

Thanks for the advice. Pretty sure I can find PSA 7 cards that look similar to this one.

You most definitely can; however, it does not mean everyone agrees with the grade. I've had 3 different 56 Mantles in PSA 7, I can say each of them was clearly superior to this card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That some might think the card is overgraded, and recall there have been periods when grading may have been a little more lax, hardly means there is anything fake about this card or that a scam is involved. The holder and flip look ok to me. I note that the flips in the link to the craiglist scam appear to have square corners.

[CollectiblesNJ]

So we still have nowhere near a consensus on this card. It is going back to the seller tomorrow. Our back and forth has been extremely civil maybe I can get him to resubmit to PSA and update.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Post an oversize cell phone pic of almost any card and you will find some expert who thinks it's fake and some expert who thinks it's overgraded.

[Sean1125]

If you plan to buy and sell I would really invest in a good scanner. You can get a top notch CCD element scanner for $60-$70 shipped, these provide CRYSTAL clear scans.

[howard38]

.

[CollectiblesNJ]

this card is for sale again on Ebay by original seller. I returned the card and the next day he claimed PSA looked at the card and was standing behind it.

We all know PSA will not even look at their PO Box for three days let alone receive, evaluate, return in 48 hours.

Still don't know if it was fake slab or not but I know it has still not been looked at.

[bobbyw8469]

I returned the card and the next day he claimed PSA looked at the card and was standing behind it.

He is lying to you. I returned a Michael Jordan card that some people were having an issue with. PSA ended up standing behind the grade as well, but it took them around a month to look at it and return it back to me. You have to ship the card to them. With his one day PSA "turnaround", I am wagering money that the card is no good, and he is going to pass it off to someone else.

[arexcrooke]

Yep. Sounds like it.

[vintage954]

Just report the issue with ebAy

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

This may be off topic, but I guess it isn't in a way. I have been looking at some 53 Topps cards on 707 sportscards website. For a long time, I have cringed at their prices. However, I have made a couple of purchases from them. They tend to have cards that aren't that easy to otherwise find. Anyway, I think Levi and co. has the reputation of being above reproach in that the authenticity of their cards are never in question. When buying something big time like a NM 56 Mantle, I am almost compelled to go to 707 or someone of that caliber, higher prices and all.

[bobbyw8469]

When buying something big time like a NM 56 Mantle, I am almost compelled to go to 707 or someone of that caliber, higher prices and all

For a card like that, your best bet is one of the premiere auction houses. Greg Bussineau, Goodwin, Mile High, etc. You would get a better deal than going to 707. His prices are through the roof, and you can usually find a better card/better deal elsewhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So nobody ever consigns bad cards to auction houses?

Looking at the examples of the different style PSA "slips" through the years, this looks like the style 3. Man you guys have got me so concerned because I have a 1951 Bowman Mays in PSA 6 that has the exact same characteristics and my feet have been literally sweating since I started reading this thread. So much so that I contacted b-e-collectibles who I purchased the card from in December with my concern.

I also looked on ebay and there's one listed on ebay in PSA 6 that has the exact same style slip with rounded white corners, but the bar code is completely different than mine...so that makes me feel a little bit better.

[bobbyw8469]

So nobody ever consigns bad cards to auction houses?

Im not saying that don't happen, but if you look at the card, and it looks like a '5', but is in a '7' holder, then you should be alarmed. The old addage "Buy the card, not the holder" should be in your mind thoughout every purchase.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Im not saying that don't happen, but if you look at the card, and it looks like a '5', but is in a '7' holder, then you should be alarmed. The old addage "Buy the card, not the holder" should be in your mind thoughout every purchase.

It doesn't look like a 5 to me, not even close. I don't know what you are seeing.

[bobbyw8469]

I am seeing a card with surface scratches where Micks chin is, chipping all along the edges and weak corners. If you think that card is a '7', then by all means, you buy it! Me personally however, I have had 6's that look nicer than that card, and the lying about PSA "looking" at the card and deeming it is good is enough to tell me the card is trouble and not worth losing 2 grand over!

Originally Posted by Buyerz_Paradise

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=846031

This shows the flips throughout the ages.

This was cut in early 2000s according to seller, an practicing attorney in California. Flip style 3. Cert Matches. No frosting. I looked into all this before I purchased the card.

He emailed me with his law firm in the signature of his correspondence.

I mean don't get me wrong I could have been cleverly scammed. but I did my home work. This cert is not for sale anywhere else nor was ever sold from what I can find

Another difference between flips 2 & 3, that I noticed after doing some research today is, that aside from the hologram changing from "PSA" to "Collectors Universe" from flips 2 to 3, the embossed PSA (which appears on the bottom right of the front of the case on both flips) can also be found on the back of flip 3 (same position) but is not found on the back of flip 2 (at least not for 1951 Bowman's and presumably other non-standard sized cards). This is not mentioned in the forum linked above and has been driving me crazy because my 1951 Willie Mays with flip 2 does not include the embossment but apparently flip 3's do. I've included exemplars of flips 2 (the Mantle and Ford) and a flip 3 (Mays) which includes the embossed "PSA" on the back if you look very closely.

Edit: This at the very least seems to be the case for the 1951 Bowmans and presumably other non-standard sized cards, which may explain why some flip 2's have the embossed "PSA" on the back bottom right corner (see link above in quotes for examples) while others (non-standard size) don't. I will add a scan of my card in the post to follow as I cannot do it when editing an existing post.

Picture of the back of my Mays with PSA flip #2. Notice the absence of the "PSA" embossment on the lower right corner...just like the Mantle and Ford shown above

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Buyerz_Paradise

this card is for sale again on Ebay by original seller. I returned the card and the next day he claimed PSA looked at the card and was standing behind it.

We all know PSA will not even look at their PO Box for three days let alone receive, evaluate, return in 48 hours.

Still don't know if it was fake slab or not but I know it has still not been looked at.

If the seller is in CA is it possible they visited PSA personally? Or was their mailing address to far from PSA to make that possible?

Originally Posted by brian29575

Using app on my phone, the Barcode scans correctly, so that has to be a good sign.

Card looks like it meets PSA 7 standards to me

I agree. It's pretty easy to rip any card to shreds when it's magnified 300%.

[Kid Poker]

Just curious does anyone know if the bar codes on the fake slabs always match up with the serial number? Is that one of the methods that we can decipher fake slabs with real ones by scanning the bar code and making sure it matches with the numbers or do the scammers make them match up?

Thanks

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It doesn't look like a 5 to me, not even close. I don't know what you are seeing.

I think it is more hypothetical as in "if you think the card is significantly lower than grade displayed".

[CollectiblesNJ]

Update:

Seller killed the re-listed card and is submitting the card to PSA. Said he was referring to a rep on the phone who looked at his listing when the original dispute arose. He really seems like he is trying to do the right thing as he could have just let his auction run its course and likely ebay would not have pulled it.


I agreed to withdraw my negative feedback and even consummate the original deal if he wishes once we have a positive result from PSA.

Will keep everyone updated.

[ChiSoxCardboard]

Interesting thread. Count me in the camp that thinks it's a legitimate card and slab. Not the most beautiful 7, but not certainly a 5, either. Slab looks consistent with those of the early 2000s.

Brad

[Kid Poker]

Originally Posted by ChiSoxCardboard

Interesting thread. Count me in the camp that thinks it's a legitimate card and slab. Not the most beautiful 7, but not certainly a 5, either. Slab looks consistent with those of the early 2000s.

Brad

I concur. I have the 56 set in the registry and viewed some of the common
7s that are in line with the OP's Mantle.