T206 "Elite Eleven"....their various backs & SURVEY

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Last year we ran a survey on these 13 - T206 Subjects (shown here) with respect to their seldom seen 350 backs. Conroy
and Pastorius, although tough 350's, are found more often (and also with Sweet Cap 350 backs). The remaining 11 subjects,
I've coined the "elite 11" as they are virtually "150-only" cards. Seven of these are found with the normal variety of 150 series
backs; but, are very rarely found with a PIEDMONT 350 back or an El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back (and never with a Sov-
ereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 back). Lundgren (Cubs) exists only with Piedmont 150 and 350, and EPDG backs.
The other three, Ames, Doyle and Schulte, have yet to be confirmed with any 350 series backs. Although these three cards
have been traditionally classified (prior to Scot Reader's book...."Inside T206") as 150/350 series cards.

Seven of the "elite eleven" were probably cut short early in the 350 series production due to their transitional status in the
1909 season....while the T206 designers were planning which players to print in their 350 series (for release in early 1910).

Dahlen........playing career ends (1909)....Manager of Brooklyn (1910)

Ewing.........traded from Cinc. to Phila (NL), Jan 1910

Ganley........traded from Wash. to Phila (A's), May 1909

T Jones.......traded from St Louis (AL) to Detroit, Aug 1909

Karger.........traded from Cinc. to Boston (AL), June 1909

Lindaman.....career ends in 1909

Lundgren......reassigned to Minor Leagues in 1909






Continuing this Survey from where we left off, my latest, updated numbers are......


Player....................Piedmont 350......EPDG........150/350 inputs (total)

Ames (hands/chest)...........0...............0...............1 21

Dahlen (Boston).................4...............2........ ......282

L Doyle (throwing)..............0...............0......... ......92

Ewing..............................2.............. ..2..............227

Ganley.............................3.............. ..2...............141

T Jones (St Louis)..............2................3............ ..216

Karger..............................4............. ...4..............271

Lindaman..........................4............... .3..............235

Lundgren (Cubs)................4................2.......... ......77

Mullin (throw)....................2................5..... ..........144
.
Schulte (front)...................0................0...... ..........98

Totals.............................25............. ..23............1904


Any new data on these 11 cards would be appreciated. I'm looking for any "350" backs on these cards. An EPDG back is
as significant as a PIEDMONT 350 back; because, the presence of an EPDG back signifies that, that Subject, was indeed
printed in the initial 350 Series press run. Most important is any new inputs on Ames, Doyle and Schulte.

I have recorded all inputs from the prior survey; therefore, redundancy is avoided. So, show or tell us what's on the
backs of these "elite 11" cards in your T206 collection ?

Thanks,

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: jamie

here are the cards that I have with a 350 back hope it helps
conroy piedmont 350
Dahlen (Brooklyn) sweet cap 350
Lundgren (chi) piedmont 350

hope that helps
Jamie

[Archive]

Posted By: Craig W

Hi Ted, I was searching thru posts just the other day trying to determine if Ames had ever been found in the 350 Series. I acquired an Ames P150 in an eBay auction a couple weeks ago and was trying to figure out if I should catalog him as 150-Only or as a 150/350 series. Thanks for the summarized survey results.

Best regards,
Craig

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony S.

Ted, I have the Karger with a Piedmont 350 back.

edited to add: I also have the Lundgren (Cubs) with a Piedmont 350.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

The Dahlen of interest for this survey is the Boston version.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard Cline - RC

Ted - I have Ewing and Karger, but both are Piedmont 150's.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- you sure do have the best scanner of anyone on this board. Your images are the crispest and brightest around!

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

We have just a small inexpensive EPSON scanner/copier/printer device. But, as you observed, it produces quality images.
However, nothing matches whatever John Wonka has.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Well Wonka is a magician, that's a whole other discipline.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Did you ever realize that when you sold me the Lundgren with the EPDG back, and the Moeller (DRUM)....back in 1985,
you created a "T-brand monster" regarding "The Monster" set's design ?

Ever since, I've become an intense student of the front/back permutations of the T206's.

I'm not complaining Barry, instead I am thanking you for motivating me.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanx guys for your inputs. They have been tallied, along with inputs from six Net54 readers who have emailed me their inputs.

Last year we ran a survey on these 13 - T206 Subjects (shown here) with respect to their seldom seen 350 backs. The results
of that survey singled out 11 - T206 subjects, that I have coined as the "elite eleven". As they are virtually "150-only" cards.
Eight are very rarely found with a PIEDMONT 350 back or an El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back. Ames, Doyle and Schulte have
yet to be confirmed with either of these backs, even though they have been traditionally classified as 150/350 subjects.

Seven of the "elite 11" were probably cut short in the 350 series production due to their transitional status in the 1909 season.
While the T206 designers were planning which players to print in their 350 series (for release in early 1910).

Dahlen........playing career ends (1909)....Manager of Brooklyn (1910)

Ewing.........traded from Cinc. to Phila (NL), Jan 1910

Ganley........traded from Wash. to Phila (A's), May 1909

T Jones.......traded from St Louis (AL) to Detroit, Aug 1909

Karger.........traded from Cinc. to Boston (AL), June 1909

Lindaman.....career ends in 1909

Lundgren......reassigned to Minor Leagues in 1909






Continuing this Survey from where we left off, my latest, updated numbers are......


Player....................Piedmont 350......EPDG........150/350 inputs (total)

Ames (hands/chest)...........0...............0...............1 28

Dahlen (Boston).................4...............2........ ......290

L Doyle (throwing)..............0...............0......... ......98

Ewing..............................2.............. ..2..............235

Ganley.............................3.............. ..2...............146

T Jones (St Louis)..............2................3............ ..222

Karger..............................5............. ...4..............282

Lindaman..........................4............... .3..............242

Lundgren (Cubs)................6................2.......... ......83

Mullin (throw)....................2................5..... ..........150
.
Schulte (front)...................0................0...... .........102

Totals.............................27............. ..23............1978


OK, a good start.....but, more inputs are welcomed.....I always say, don't just look at the fronts of your BB cards....there's
lots of good information to read on their backs.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Hi Ted- sorry it took so long to get back to this thread. We did so many deals that many of them are hard to remember, but one that stands out is the EPDG Lundgren. It seemed pretty cool at the time but the rarity wasn't yet documented. Today it is more common knowledge.

[Archive]

Posted By: David R

Ted,

Thanks for all your great work on this. I have a fair number of EPDG back t206s and I gave you my input on these last time so mine are included (I have Mullin, Jones and Karger).

I was wondering whether the EPDG backs in this group are really any rarer than other EPDG cards. For example, I have an Admiral Schlei EPDG back which, on the SGC population reports, is the only one of 224 graded. Similarly, I had a Claude Ritchey EPDG back (which I traded to a fellow Board member) that is the only one out of 72 graded by SGC. These seem a lot rarer (or at least as rare) for the EPDG back than the ones in the elite eleven. Any thoughts?

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick

I have the following P150's
Ames
Karger
Mullin
Lindamen

[Archive]

Posted By: stefan

i have dahlen boston EPDG and mullin throwing piedmont 150.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st....there are 3 Schlei poses, which one is the one with the EPDG back ?

2nd....My records account for 4 - Ritchey cards with EPDG backs. I caution you not to take any POP reports seriously regarding
the tougher T206 backs. They can be very misleading. These 4 cards I have recorded consist of 2 graded and 2 ungraded.

About 2 years ago Barry Arnold had a great EPDG thread (survey); and, after tallying several 1000's of T206's, only 2% of the
total cards reported had EPDG backs.

Tell me which Schlei you have and I'll compare it with my data.

Thanx
TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott T

This is what I have in my collection:

Ames (hands/chest) SC 150
Dahlen (Boston) Old Mill
L Doyle (throwing) P 150
Ewing SC 150
Ganley P 150
T Jones (St Louis) SC 150
Karger - EPDG
Lindaman Soveriegn 150
Lundgren (Cubs) P 150
Mullin (throw).P 150
Schulte (front) SC 150


Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: David R

Ted,

My Schlei with the EPDG back is the fielding pose. The SGC population report does not distinguish between the poses so that's the only one of any Schlei pose with an EPDG back that SGC has graded. Are you aware of other Schlei EPDG backs? And is my impression correct that the elite eleven with EPDG backs are not really any rarer than many other T206s with EPDG backs?

David

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have 2 ungraded Schlei (catching) in my records with EPDG backs. The other two Schlei poses in my records have no EPDG
backs. I think you will agree that the SGC POP report is misleading in this case, since there are 3 distinct Schlei poses in this
particular T206 population. And, especially, since I have never seen the two 460 Series Schlei poses with EPDG backs.

Dahlen, Ewing, Ganley, Jones, and Lundgren are extremely tough to find with EPDG backs. I got my Lundgren (EPDG) in 1985.
Recently, on ebay I saw only the 2nd one ever. And, I'll tell you that in the intervening 23 years I have scanned approx. 1700
Lundgren (Cubs) cards. Karger, Lindaman, and Mullin seem to be about as available as any other EPDG card.

Anyhow, you are losing sight of my original intention of this thread.....and, that is looking for how many Piedmont 350 (or Sweet
Cap 350 or Sovereign 350) backs of these "elite 11" can be found. I'm 99.9% positive we won't find Sweet Cap 350 or Sovereign
350 backs on these 11. But, you never know with this "Monster"....just when you think you are getting to know it, it zings you
with a new surprise. The purpose of introducing the EPDG data in this survey is primarily intended to "flush-out" the possibility of
Ames, Doyle or Schulte having a "350" back. The EPDG brand on the T206's was introduced at the very early stages of the 350
Series. This is a hard fast rule....if a T206 Subject is found with an EPDG back, invariably this same Subject will be found with a
350 back. However, it may take many years of looking, as 99.5% of these cards will have 150 Series backs on them.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Glen Turner

I checked my T206s and I have a Ewing EPDG back.
What kind of premium are put on these Elite Eleven with 350 or EPDG backs?
Thanks.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Ewing with an EPDG back is very tough to find. EPDG collectors will pay $200+ for a Vg-Ex (or better).

A Lundgren (graded Vg-Ex) with an EPDG back on ebay recently went for $850.

The 8 cards with Piedmont 350 backs are a premium to "back collectors" like me; and, I have paid twice the normal price
for some. To most T206 collectors (who are just interested in completing the set) the back usually is immaterial.

I have acquired the Piedmont 350 and the EPDG backs on the 8 cards years ago when T206 prices were a lot cheaper.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks to everyone who posted their inputs yesterday and today. Also, I received several emails with new inputs.
All inputs will be tallied on Monday.

Continue to keep the data "truck-in"........

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Schwarz

In my set, I have all the cards and they are all 150 subjects.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

After the "big Six", Lundgren (Cubs) possibly ranks as the 7th toughest card in the T206 set. Shown here are the 3 backs this card
is found with. Virtually all (98 %) Lundgren cards are found with the Piedmont 150 back. One significant factor why this Lundgren is
quite rare, is that it is available with only 3 backs. While the majority of the T206's were printed on 10 - 15 various tobacco backs.






Of the "elite eleven", Lindaman is more available than the other 10 subjects. Shown here are all the various backs he can be found with.
Finding Lindaman with an EPDG, HINDU, or Piedmont 350 back is very tough.





TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Two of the "elite 11", Ewing and Jones, are also found with a Sweet Cap 150 Fac. 649 NY (overprint) back. This back is found on only 36 cards in the set.

Ganley is found with 7 different backs (Sweet Cap Fac. 30 NY is missing from scan); and, is one of the tougher cards of the Eleven.






TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Ted,

Are you saying that in the white border tobacco cards, the Cubs card of Lundgren is more difficult to locate than Elberfeld's Washington portrait? That Lundgren with the Cubs ranks after the O'Hara and Demmitt cards with their St. Louis teams??

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You ask a very good question....lets 1st consider the printing aspects of the Lundgren (Cubs) and the Elberfeld (portrait-
Washington). The majority (98 %) of Lundgren cards were printed with Piedmont 150 backs. Subsequently, Lundgren was
short-printed on P350, and especially so, on EPDG.

Elberfeld was printed on Piedmont 350, Sweet Cap 350/25, Sweet Cap 350/30 backs....and, a seldom seen Old Mill back.

Elberfeld was traded to Washington, Dec. 1909, which was at the tail-end of the 350-only Series production period. Thus,
we can conclude that this card was short-printed. So, the real question is which one of these two Subjects were "more
short-printed" ? Of course 99 years later, there is really no way of determining this. Pardon me if I use ebay as some sort
of measure, but any given week you will see a slight more Elberfeld (port-Wash.) cards than Lundgren (Cubs) cards. Cur-
rently, there are three Elberfeld's to one Lundgren. Of course Elberfeld is a bigger $$ card; and, that may be the reason
more of them will be listed on ebay.

Really, I think it's a close call between these two T206 Subjects. Hopefully, Scot Reader can enlighten us on this question.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Confirmed backs for Bill Dahlen (Boston)....Ed Karger....George Mullin (throwing)....Three more of the "Elite Eleven" will be displayed soon.

Note....an OLD MILL back has also been reported for Dahlen (pending confirmation, so as not be confused with the Brooklyn version).






TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave Hornish

It would be really cool if there was a site that showed all the back variations for each card, lined up like Ted has above. Impossible, but cool.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Frank W. and Ted,

I believe Elberfeld (Washington Portrait) is more difficult than Lundgren (Chicago), but not decisively so. In terms of scarcity ranking I have them at #8 and #9, respectively.

Best,

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks everyone for your inputs. They have been tallied, along with inputs from Net54 readers who have emailed me.

Last year we ran a survey on these 13 - T206 Subjects (shown here) with respect to their seldom seen 350 backs. Conroy
and Pastorius, although tough 350's, are found more often (and also with Sweet Cap 350 backs). The remaining 11 subjects,
I've coined the "elite 11" as they are virtually "150-only" cards. Seven of these are found with the normal variety of 150 series
backs; but, are very rarely found with a PIEDMONT 350 back or an El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back (and never with a Sov-
ereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 back). Lundgren (Cubs) exists only with Piedmont 150 and 350, and EPDG backs.






UPDATED......3/27/08


Player....................Piedmont 350......EPDG........150/350 inputs (total)

Ames (hands/chest)...........0...............0...............1 33

Dahlen (Boston).................4...............3........ ......293

L Doyle (throwing)..............0...............0......... .....102

Ewing..............................2.............. ..3..............239

Ganley.............................3.............. ..2...............150

T Jones (St Louis)..............2................3............ ..226

Karger..............................5............. ...4..............286

Lindaman..........................4............... .3..............247

Lundgren (Cubs)................6................2.......... .......87

Mullin (throw)....................2................5..... ..........155
.
Schulte (front)...................0................0...... .........106

Totals.............................27............. ..25.............2025


OK, we are rolling right along; but, more inputs are welcomed....I always say, don't just look at the fronts of your BB cards,
there is a lot of good information to read when you flip them over.

Once again....I am emphasizing that we are ESPECIALLY interested in data on these 3 cards.....Ames.....Doyle.....Schulte ?

Scot Reader and I are about 99.9% convinced that these 3 cards should be re-classified as "150-only" subjects and added
to the 9 subjects that are already in this category. However, we never know when one of these 3 cards might just show up
with a Piedmont 350 back. This is exactly what occurred when the Joe Doyle error cards were discovered in the early 1980's.



T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have received many Net54 "readers" responses....but, very few regular poster responses this go around. I realize many of you
responded to this survey when I initially posted it. This will be the final run on this survey, so anyone who would still like to pro-
vide inputs on these 11 cards, it will be really appreciated.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Shown here are the "Three Question Marks" of these 11 cards....Ames (hands/chest)....Doyle (throwing)....Schulte (front/bat).

Traditional T206 documentation (prior to Scot Reader's book...."Inside T206") classifies these three as 150/350 series cards....
we have yet to see a "350" back on any of these.

Please check your T206 collections and see if you will be the 1st to find any 350 back on these cards ?

Thanks much,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Ted,

I identified these three and a few others as possible 150-onlys in my ebook, so I wouldn't say categorically that all T206 documentation says they are 150/350s!

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

In my initial post here, I stated...."Ames, Doyle and Schulte have yet to be confirmed with either of these backs, even
though they have been traditionally classified as 150/350 subjects."

The words "traditionally classified" (old news) are meant to include T206 documentation prior to your ground-breaking
book (new news).
And indeed, in an earlier post here, I alluded to your belief that these 3 Subjects very possibly belong to the 150-only
category. Anyhow, I have added clarification to my term "traditional" in my prior post.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This survey has demonstrated that 8 of these eleven T206 subjects are primarily found with 150 backs; and, very rarely
found with a 350 back (typically only 1-2%).
So finally, this survey narrows down to these three T206 cards which have yet to be found with any 350 backs.








UPDATED........April 3, 2008


Player....................Piedmont 350......EPDG........150/350 inputs (total)

Ames (hands/chest)...........0...............0................ .135

Dahlen (Boston).................5...............3........ ........297

L Doyle (throwing)..............0...............0......... .......104

Ewing..............................2.............. ..3................244

Ganley.............................3.............. ..2................152

T Jones (St Louis)..............3................3............ ...230

Karger..............................5............. ...4...............299

Lindaman..........................4............... .3...............259

Lundgren (Cubs)................6................2.......... ......101

Mullin (throw)....................2................5..... ..........170
.
Schulte (front)...................0................0...... .........111

Totals.............................30............. ..25.............2102


TINKER thru your T206 collections, EVER.s so closely looking at the backs, on the CHANCE that you may have a 350 back
on this Ames, or Doyle, or Schulte card ?

Thanks again,


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I hope this is alright with you. I have transferred your posted info to this recent thread and added it to this survey.......


My counts via spreadsheet

Ames (hands/chest) -- P150, SC 150
Dahlen (Boston) -- SC 150
Doyle (fldg) -- P150, P350 -- I'm assuming this is the hands over head pose
Durham -- P150 x 3
Ewing -- SC 150
Jones (St. Louis) -- EPDG
Lindaman -- EPDG, SC 150
Schulte (front.Cubs) -- P150

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I hope this is alright with you. I have transferred your posted info to this recent thread and added it to this survey.......


Hi Ted,

Please add these to the list. All from a recent find.

All Piedmont 150s

Conroy
Dahlen (boston)
Lundgren (chicago)
Schulte (front view)
Pastorius
Doyle (throwing)
Ames (chest)
Karger
Lindaman
Jones (ST. Louis)
Ganley
Ewing

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Due to requests from several posters and several emails from Net54 readers, I am reprising this survey.


Last year we ran a survey on these 13 - T206 Subjects (shown here) with respect to their seldom seen 350 backs. Conroy
and Pastorius, although tough 350's, are found more often (and also with Sweet Cap 350 backs). The remaining 11 subjects,
I've coined the "elite 11" as they are virtually "150-only" cards. Seven of these are found with the normal variety of 150 series
backs; but, are very rarely found with a PIEDMONT 350 back or an El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back (and never with a Sov-
ereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 back). Lundgren (Cubs) was only printed with Piedmont 150 and 350, and EPDG backs. Ames,
Doyle, and Schulte have yet to be found with any 350 backs..








UPDATED........May 13, 2008


Player....................Piedmont 350......EPDG........150/350 inputs (total)

Ames (hands/chest)...........0...............0................ .142

Dahlen (Boston).................6...............3........ ........303

L Doyle (throwing)..............0...............0......... .......111

Ewing..............................3.............. ..3................261

Ganley.............................3.............. ..2................159

T Jones (St Louis)..............3................4............ ...242

Karger..............................5............. ...4...............314

Lindaman..........................4............... .4...............274

Lundgren (Cubs)................6................2.......... ......103

Mullin (throw)....................2................5..... ..........180
.
Schulte (front)...................0................0...... .........119

Totals.............................32............. ..27.............2208


Any new data on these 11 cards would be appreciated. I'm looking for any "350" backs on these cards. An EPDG back is
as significant as a PIEDMONT 350 back; because, the presence of an EPDG back signifies that, that Subject was indeed
printed in the initial 350 Series press run. Most important are any new inputs on these particular poses of Ames, Doyle,
or Schulte.


TINKER thru your T206 collections, EVER.s so closely looking at the backs, on the CHANCE that you may have a 350 back
on any, or all, 11 cards listed in this survey.


Thanks again for your time and effort.


TED Z

[Tao_Moko]

Ted,

You can add another Lundgren PD350 back to your survey. Interesting pickup from this board by a nice fella(dcost328) who came into some tobacco cards pasted in an album of which most had back damage. I purchased this Lundgren and a Ganley because after seeing that the Lundgren was a PD350 and observing the subject/series of the other cards he had, determined that the Ganley and possibly his Schulte are in fact 350's as well. Unfortunately, we'll never know due to the paperloss. Fortunately this card held on to enough paper to see the "350".

I do have two of these now so hopefully I can recoup my money by trading one for something else I want....hint, hint, wink, wink.

[ScottFandango]

Nice card, and fun 5 year old thread....

Thanks for bringing it up....Gonna check my schulte now