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  #51  
Old 10-17-2013, 03:03 PM
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Strictly IMO and just a thought, one easy way to eliminate the shilling (or the potential of shilling)in these type of traditional auctions, save the man hours of attempting to police it, and still attempt to maximize the profit of the consignor would be to use a reverse auction format via BINs on ebay.
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  #52  
Old 10-17-2013, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
You cannot police every auction of every bidder and weed out who is a serial retractor or not.

It really doesn't matter anymore. It's not just shillers who are doing this, it's bidders who have decided this is a great bidding strategy for them to suss out the high bid.

You can however, very easily weed out the bidders who are placing retractions in YOUR auctions. Every time somebody retracts a bid in one of your auctions, you receive an e-mail from Ebay telling you this. It's not rocket science and it's not time consuming. A couple circumstances like this happening in YOUR auctions, you do a little investigating, you confront the bidder with a message, and then you cut the bidder off at the knees or find out he has a tremendously valid reason for doing what he did.
I was only referring to people bidding in his auctions.....but not where they had done it previously. If they retracted 50 bids, and then bid in his auction and canceled it, ban them. There aren't millions of people doing this. After the first 20-30 I am going to guess you have most of the major bid retractors bidding in your auctions banned and taken care of. Again, it's one small step but one in the right direction, imo. I am not talking about policing all of ebay, only one's own auctions...and then only with major bid retractors. This wouldn't be that difficult.
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Last edited by Leon; 10-17-2013 at 03:25 PM. Reason: changed a few words to be more precise
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  #53  
Old 10-17-2013, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
You can however, very easily weed out the bidders who are placing retractions in YOUR auctions. Every time somebody retracts a bid in one of your auctions, you receive an e-mail from Ebay telling you this. It's not rocket science and it's not time consuming. A couple circumstances like this happening in YOUR auctions, you do a little investigating, you confront the bidder with a message, and then you cut the bidder off at the knees or find out he has a tremendously valid reason for doing what he did.
Where can I turn on this eBay automatic notice of someone retracting a bid in my auction? I haven't found any way to turn on or opt in for such a notification.

I say this in all sincerity, because I was just about to suggest that the easiest way for eBay to police this kind of thing would be to let the seller know every time it happens. Get 30 notices in a day of the same guy bidding and retracting in your auction, and you're bound to notice them clogging up your inbox, no matter how many listings you have. That also saves you the trouble of having to suss out who the serial retractors are. All you have to do is look for the recurring eBay ID's in your inbox, and act accordingly to ban those from bidding on your auctions.

I've never found a way to set up such notifications though. I don't sell at near the level of pwcc, but I know for a fact that I have had retractions on my auctions in the past where I wasn't notified (I only noticed because an item that was at the top of the list in number of bids dropped down when I refreshed the screen, without any other bids having come in. I confirmed it by checking the bid history, but wouldn't have thought to do so otherwise).
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Last edited by thecatspajamas; 10-17-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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  #54  
Old 10-17-2013, 03:53 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
FYI it took me about three minutes to find five (or maybe it was more) suspicious bidders who should be investigated. The stats people throw up in an effort to make this seem more overwhelming than putting a man on the moon don't impress me much.


How?

I decided to try it myself, looked at about 25 auctions bid history. Only checked patterns that looked odd.

That took roughly 13 minutes.

I did find three bidders I thought were a bit suspect, and two maybes.

But over a couple thousand auctions the hours spent would be close to what Jason had. And call it statistics, but the costs I figured would be the costs no matter what you call them. Checking requires labor, those workers need to be paid.

I do agree that some effort would weed out the most obvious problem bidders.

I'm not so sure that would reduce the overall problem since those bidders might be replaced with new problem bidders.

And I have doubts that such light scrutiny would satisfy you.
If a big consigner came on once a month and said he'd spent a half hour and banned 5 people would you be ok with that? Or would you demand that he look into every bidder.
If he looked into every bidder on items over 250 would that be ok, or should it be every bidder on every item?

And what's the threshold for "suspect" a couple bid retractions? A certain pattern? Someone intent on shilling will work around almost any detection method. (See also computer anti-virus programming. They're written nearly as fast as the AV can be adjusted to block them)

I agree shilling is bad, and that some steps should be taken. Persoanlly I'd be happy with any genuine effort by any of the large consignment companies.

But it does have to be tempered with a bit of realism. Not all suspect patterns are shills. Not all shills can or will be caught. It doesn't mean not trying.

Ebay allowing people with too many retractions to be blocked would be a very big help. And for Ebay it wouldn't be that hard or expensive. (Not counting the lost fees from shilled items.) They already have the programmers on the payroll.

So far no takers on bankrolling a shiller detection program..........Not that I'm expecting any.

Steve B
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  #55  
Old 10-17-2013, 04:04 PM
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I think one of the things that many agree with is that numerous bid retractions could a sign of shilling. If nothing else, they are definitely a sign of a "suspect buyer".

So.... it's time to put the myth to bed on how "time intensive" or "expensive" it is to monitor and act on possible shill bidders on ebay. Submitted for your approval...

Since my last post (less than 2 hours ago), I downloaded a FREE web crawler and configured it to show me a list of all the PWCC ebay auctions that completed in the last 7 days, view ALL the bidders on those auctions, and extract the number of bid retractions EACH bidder had for the past 6 months. This is under the Bid Extract column at the bottom. Each line in the bottom section is a list of the bid retractions in the last 6 months and the URL to a SPECIFIC buyer. There could be duplicates, but this could be filtered out.

This was a a POC (proof of concept) approach from myself, and while having some background working with computers, I have NO experience with web crawlers. That is why the output is somewhat "dirty" but could be beefed up and made pretty with probably a little more effort. Obviously from my lousy jpg I'm not one to be doing scan enhancements.

However the point is this: It is NOT difficult NOR expensive for someone selling on ebay to monitor and trace back bid retractions.

Note: I am NOT saying that PWCC knows about this or is involved with this or doesn't care. It was simply an exercise to point out how simple and cheap this is to do, if one has the desire to do so.
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  #56  
Old 10-17-2013, 04:13 PM
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Does this one qualify??



http://tinyurl.com/k3d63f8

same dude..........underbidder

http://tinyurl.com/lkvfruk
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Last edited by nsaddict; 10-17-2013 at 04:30 PM.
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  #57  
Old 10-17-2013, 04:33 PM
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Crickets.
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  #58  
Old 10-17-2013, 04:34 PM
painthistorian painthistorian is offline
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RE: bid retractions...

We do get a few bid retractions each week we hold an e bay auction, usually due to buyer's remorse in which they will click one of four reasons that e bay allows, VERY RARELY is it from the same bidder constantly. We will not tolerate this if it happens over and over again(3 x MAX).

The most common is bid wrong amount, and if the amount bid is NOT rebid correctly, we assume the bidder is reneging. If cancelled within 24 hours of the lot closing, we will block the bidder. Notification is sent by e bay for every retraction and can be seen when you click bids on my e bay. If the bidder has not asked us to cancel his bid for whatever reason, and if he feels it is his right to withdraw a bid after days of retraction, forget it, we will not allow this bidder to bid again. It is very simple to resolve, e bay does send notification in each retraction situation. Hopefully PWCC will do the same so that it does not cause him or the legit bidders heartache, and these reneging bidders(in most cases) should be banned from bidding in the future.

Once in a while, a bidder that retracts does so for personal reasons beyond their control(such as illness) however an e mail explanation is proper and a courtesy and should be done for everybody's sake. It is not fair to bidders or sellers either way...e bay is already WAY too slanted in buyer protection in certain instances.

Last edited by painthistorian; 10-17-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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  #59  
Old 10-17-2013, 04:38 PM
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There isn't any excuse for allowing what appears to be fraudulent bidding. If you want to avoid being questioned about possible shilling, etc., then you do periodic spot-checks and ban the offenders. Unless it's part of your business plan, in which case you just stick with it, ignoring those who can't do jack (us) until you get caught by someone who actually can put you in the clink. Then you find religion, do your time and come back with an improved plan.
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  #60  
Old 10-17-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by nsaddict View Post
Does this one qualify??



http://tinyurl.com/k3d63f8

same dude..........underbidder

http://tinyurl.com/lkvfruk
That 1 is enough proof for me. Also someone in that auction with 0 feedback bidding 12k with plenty of time left in the auction to retract the bid and someone with 14 feedback and 4 bid retractions in the last 6 months bidding 11k plus.

D@v1d $h1p$ey
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  #61  
Old 10-17-2013, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsaddict View Post
Does this one qualify??



http://tinyurl.com/k3d63f8

same dude..........underbidder

http://tinyurl.com/lkvfruk
That's another thing one sees spending a few minutes clicking through the high dollar auctions -- same bidders with mega retractions or high percentage with seller, bidding on disparate items that seemingly one person would not collect. Here, the Mantle rookie and a Cabrera autograph. That is imprecise and circumstantial, of course, but noticed it many times.
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  #62  
Old 10-17-2013, 04:57 PM
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The only way to prevent hard to detect crimes is to have the worst possible punishment when caught. I suggest execution by a razor toothed sloth, starting from the feet up.

In real life, there is a poisonous boa, but it doesn't squirt the poison from it's teeth as with vipers. Rather, it holds its victim still, spits the poison on the victim then chews it in.

Or as was Woody Allen's punishment in prison in Take the Money and Run: 7 days locked in a sweat box with an insurance salesman.

Last edited by drcy; 10-17-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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  #63  
Old 10-17-2013, 05:03 PM
cincyredlegs cincyredlegs is offline
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People are shilling auctions; not just Probstein or PWCC. I know it, you know, even Rick and Brent know it. Here is my take:

-People continue to go to Probstein and PWCC because they are getting top dollar.

-Shilling drives up the prices so the seller maximizes his profits as well as Probstein and PWCC.

-Probstein and PWCC are doing nothing illegal (as long as they are not the ones shilling).

-So if Rick and Brent were to REALLY get tough and police it, what would it do to their business? Would they start to lose customers because they were not getting top dollar anymore?

So what is their vested interest in doing anything about it?

Funny thing is I know a guy who won his own auction that he consigned to Rick, paid for it, Rick mailed the card back to him then he sent back to Rick to re-list.

Mark

Last edited by cincyredlegs; 10-17-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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  #64  
Old 10-17-2013, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cincyredlegs View Post
People are shilling auctions; not just Probstein or PWCC. I know it, you know, even Rick and Brent know it. Here is my take:

-People continue to go to Probstein and PWCC because they are getting top dollar.

-Shilling drives up the prices so the seller maximizes his profits as well as Probstein and PWCC.

-Probstein and PWCC are doing nothing illegal (as long as they are not the ones shilling).

-So if Rick and Brent were to REALLY get tough and police it, what would it do to their business? Would they start to lose customers because they were not getting top dollar anymore?


So what is their vested interest in doing anything about it?

Funny thing is I know a guy who won his own auction that he consigned to Rick, paid for it, Rick mailed the card back to him then he sent back to Rick to re-list.

Mark
And yet you have people like Larry (painthistorian) who care about their integrity and their buyers, who take measures such as the ones he outlined above to stop these practices.
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  #65  
Old 10-17-2013, 07:35 PM
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The only way this will come to an end at least on eBay it would be by eBay somehow coming up with a system that if you retract bids more then once or twice in a month it locks you out for 30 days.
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  #66  
Old 10-17-2013, 09:17 PM
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Given eBay's history of "solving" problems with cover-ups and changes that really don't help, I can pretty much guarantee that before they do anything like this or any other elaborate programming solutions that anyone has suggested, they will simply stop showing the retracted bid count. Then nobody will know which listings to gripe about (at least, not with any certainty). No griping = problem solved from eBay's standpoint.

Still trying to figure out how to get notification of someone retracting a bid on one of my auctions. I get them when someone withdraws a Best Offer, but not for retracted bids.
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  #67  
Old 10-17-2013, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by thecatspajamas View Post
Where can I turn on this eBay automatic notice of someone retracting a bid in my auction? I haven't found any way to turn on or opt in for such a notification.

I say this in all sincerity, because I was just about to suggest that the easiest way for eBay to police this kind of thing would be to let the seller know every time it happens. Get 30 notices in a day of the same guy bidding and retracting in your auction, and you're bound to notice them clogging up your inbox, no matter how many listings you have. That also saves you the trouble of having to suss out who the serial retractors are. All you have to do is look for the recurring eBay ID's in your inbox, and act accordingly to ban those from bidding on your auctions.

I've never found a way to set up such notifications though. I don't sell at near the level of pwcc, but I know for a fact that I have had retractions on my auctions in the past where I wasn't notified (I only noticed because an item that was at the top of the list in number of bids dropped down when I refreshed the screen, without any other bids having come in. I confirmed it by checking the bid history, but wouldn't have thought to do so otherwise).

I always assumed it's a default setting because I've always received an e-mail when somebody retracts a bid in one of my auctions. I didn't realize others were not getting retraction notices.

I'm guessing it may be more an e-mail client setting then an Ebay setting. Maybe going to the spam box for some reason.
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  #68  
Old 10-17-2013, 09:27 PM
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I was only referring to people bidding in his auctions.....but not where they had done it previously. If they retracted 50 bids, and then bid in his auction and canceled it, ban them. There aren't millions of people doing this. After the first 20-30 I am going to guess you have most of the major bid retractors bidding in your auctions banned and taken care of. Again, it's one small step but one in the right direction, imo. I am not talking about policing all of ebay, only one's own auctions...and then only with major bid retractors. This wouldn't be that difficult.

I think we are saying the same thing Leon.
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  #69  
Old 10-18-2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by thecatspajamas View Post
Given eBay's history of "solving" problems with cover-ups and changes that really don't help, I can pretty much guarantee that before they do anything like this or any other elaborate programming solutions that anyone has suggested, they will simply stop showing the retracted bid count.
-1 ... only because I think you hit the nail squarely on the head.
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  #70  
Old 10-18-2013, 09:36 AM
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I expect the auction houses to at least do the bare minimum to protect its customers.

A previous post shows a Mantle card that went for $12,100. The bid history on that card is sickening.

D@v1d $h1p$ey
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  #71  
Old 10-18-2013, 09:56 AM
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The only way this will come to an end at least on eBay it would be by eBay somehow coming up with a system that if you retract bids more then once or twice in a month it locks you out for 30 days.
ding ding..we have a winner! so easy to enact!

but why would ebay do that? the more shill bids, the more money for them!
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  #72  
Old 10-18-2013, 09:58 AM
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In shill bidding situations like this, PWCC is the account/ebay user who's ass is on the line ultimately so we can all do our best as legitimate buyers/bidders to force the issue and attack this problem.

Its been mentioned multiple times that these consignment sellers have thousands of listings going on simultaneously. If we take time to report those auction listings we find that are being shilled (using the link included in every listing to "report a listing") Ebay should begin to put the heat on those particular sellers. In Ebay's policies they mention they will begin to notify the seller of shilling in their listings and if enough reports/multiple reports are made regarding a particular seller that Ebay could restrict and/or suspend the sellers account.

Maybe when Ebay begins to receive multiple shilling reports over and over again about consignment sellers like PWCC this will force PWCC themselves to become more vigilant in eliminating shilling on their listings because if they don't, it's their ass and their business on the line.
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  #73  
Old 10-18-2013, 10:31 AM
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The rules of Brents auction explicitly forbids the act of shill bidding. If it is OUR responsibility to adhere to these rules then how can we blame Brent for the people who do not listen?

Per PWCC:

The sportscard hobby hinges on the honesty and integrity of the seller. Too often we hear of fraud and other manipulation that serves to undermine the integrity of our hobby. Bidders deserve better, where bidding is 100% legitimate and uninfluenced by manipulations such as fraudulent (shill) bidding by the auction house, consignors, friends of consignors, friends of the auction house, or anyone else who participates insincerely with the sole intention of manipulating the sale price. We do NOT permit shill bidding of any kind and actively police our auctions to prevent such acts from occurring. If we learn that a bidder is questionable, we take action in the form of canceling the bid and blocking a bidder from participating in future auctions.

To preserve the integrity of the bidding process, we believe that eBay is the best forum to host auctions due to the privacy of the eBay platform. Unlike proprietary auction software, eBay’s platform is equally transparent to both the buyer and the seller. We don’t know the value of a bidder’s max bid, nor do our consignors, or anyone else. We've spent the last 15 years on eBay (since 1998) working to garner the trust of collectors and the hobby at large. Rest assured that you can trust our service and can participate in our auctions with the confidence that integrity is our #1 priority.
When an Ebay user agrees to these terms by placing a bid, guess what... Brent automatically enters into the same agreement to uphold his end of those same auction rules which clearly and explicitly state:
We do NOT permit shill bidding of any kind and actively police our auctions to prevent such acts from occurring.

If Brent has too many listing to (I'm quoting from his own rules) "actively police" all of those listings then he is in violation of his own auction rules! And if having too many items listed at one time prevents him from following through with his own rules then that is his fault, he has failed his responsibility and he is in violation of his own auction rules and this is completely unacceptable.
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  #74  
Old 10-18-2013, 10:57 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by tschock View Post
I think one of the things that many agree with is that numerous bid retractions could a sign of shilling. If nothing else, they are definitely a sign of a "suspect buyer".

So.... it's time to put the myth to bed on how "time intensive" or "expensive" it is to monitor and act on possible shill bidders on ebay. Submitted for your approval...

Since my last post (less than 2 hours ago), I downloaded a FREE web crawler and configured it to show me a list of all the PWCC ebay auctions that completed in the last 7 days, view ALL the bidders on those auctions, and extract the number of bid retractions EACH bidder had for the past 6 months. This is under the Bid Extract column at the bottom. Each line in the bottom section is a list of the bid retractions in the last 6 months and the URL to a SPECIFIC buyer. There could be duplicates, but this could be filtered out.

This was a a POC (proof of concept) approach from myself, and while having some background working with computers, I have NO experience with web crawlers. That is why the output is somewhat "dirty" but could be beefed up and made pretty with probably a little more effort. Obviously from my lousy jpg I'm not one to be doing scan enhancements.

However the point is this: It is NOT difficult NOR expensive for someone selling on ebay to monitor and trace back bid retractions.

Note: I am NOT saying that PWCC knows about this or is involved with this or doesn't care. It was simply an exercise to point out how simple and cheap this is to do, if one has the desire to do so.
Ok, I wasn't aware that could be done that way.

I'll consider myself proven wrong about a major portion of the costs.

Someone would still have to check out those bidders, but with the largest part of the job done it's a much quicker task.

Even as a quick proof of concept this should be made available to sellers. If I was still selling and doing large volume I'd want it.


Steve B
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  #75  
Old 10-18-2013, 11:21 AM
tschock tschock is offline
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Ok, I wasn't aware that could be done that way.

I'll consider myself proven wrong about a major portion of the costs.

Someone would still have to check out those bidders, but with the largest part of the job done it's a much quicker task.

Even as a quick proof of concept this should be made available to sellers. If I was still selling and doing large volume I'd want it.


Steve B
Steve,

Just to clarify. My comment wasn't directed at you (or anyone in particular).

And you are correct about needing to follow up with specific items/bidders. My "sample" shows 8 retractions as the highest, but my sample only grabbed 150 bidders (and I didn't filter out which completed items, so it could have been grabbing $20 sales as well, meaning there are other things that can be tweaked). When you start grabbing more, you only need to start at the highest # and work down. I think there were those here that "found" bidders in the 50s for retractions. But even double digit retractions alone should start to give one pause. That is, if the seller actually wants to deal with this.
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:44 PM
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Brent Huigens Brent Huigens is offline
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Thanks to everyone who has written here in a fair manner. These message boards provide a valuable check & balance to the hobby and we are not exempt from harsh (accurate or inaccurate) criticism.

From reading the comments and concerns on this thread it appears that there are two primary issues raised:

1) some folks feel scans sometimes appear inaccurate to how the card appears in person.

Scanning is something we take pride in doing right. Obviously we have no interest in misrepresenting a card as it would only hurt our buyer satisfaction. Frankly, this is the first time we have heard anybody suggest our scans were misleading. On that note, I can confirm that we've recently introduced some new scanners and that our settings have fluctuated somewhat over the last 90 days. However, the images we are now producing are exactly as we'd like them to appear so I ask that folks consider the images in current auctions and forward any examples that you feel are inaccurate. Please also remember that much of how a scan appears is as affected by the settings on the monitor you're using and if the scans appear overly bright (for example) you may want to consider lowering the brightness on your monitor.

Just to confirm, our scans are never enhanced artificially. We do have to specify certain parameters when the image is captured but all items sold receive the same settings and never is a single item isolated and adjusted in any way. Even if you don't like our scans, at least you be assured that they are 100% consistent from card to card.

Lastly, we have dedicated more time and effort to the scanning process than perhaps any other auction house. Yes, our images SHOULD appear brighter and clearer than your average scanner which often produce a grayish, sometimes foggy filter over the image. Our goal is have the card appear as it does in-person under quality lighting... nothing more, and nothing less.

2) questions surrounding bid retractions, etc

This is a valid concern and one we take very seriously. In fact, we are the only seller I'm aware of that actually prosecutes bid retractors. Anyone who retracts a bid in our auction is flagged by eBay trust and safety and their account is labeled with the improper action. Buyers will receive notices from eBay specifying their improper action and after a few retractions their account will be suspended. Furthermore, anyone who retracts a bid in a manner which we feel is highly unethical (i.e. perceived as possibly manipulating an auction) with have their account immediately blocked from future bidding with PWCC.

eBay has a weak policy on bid retractors and we are working with them to strengthen their position and issue more account restrictions when retractions occur.

Our policy on bid manipulation is firm, and has teeth. Any ID felt to be participating in an improper manner is blocked from bidding and reported to eBay. Any consignor who we feel may be manipulating their own auctions is also blocked from doing business with us and will have their IDs block and reported; this latter scenario is rare but has occurred. We have zero patience for this sort of activity and will pursue improper behavior with every resource we have available.

-------------------------------------

A couple comments that we ask all auction participants to consider as they help us police the eBay marketplace:
1) just because a bidder places 50% or more of their bids with PWCC does not suggest they are manipulating an auction. We have over 15,000 unique past buyers and many of these past customers appreciate the service we provide and choose to bid with us for the majority of their eBay bids. We have some clients who bid exclusively with us and will show bid percentages of 80% or higher. The critical detail to research is whether or not these bidders have received feedback from us for past purchases. A flag for us is any bidder with a high % of bids but little to no feedback; statistically it is unlikely that a bidder would place many bids, perhaps largely with only our account, and not win any items. Bidders with this sort of track record are usually blocked.

2) just because a bidder places multiple bids (even 10+ bids) on a single item is not automatically label that bidder as a shill participant. In researching countless situations like this, it has become abundantly clear that many eBay bidders choose to bid in ways that some would consider eccentric... they feel it's part of the fun of bidding on eBay. Until eBay changes its minimum bid increment, this sort of behavior may continue. What is important to look for are bidders who place multiple bids until becoming the high bidder and then retract their bid. Bidders who bid in this fashion are quickly blocked by us and are reported to eBay.

3) Please keep eBay in perspective with the other non-eBay auction venues. The beauty of eBay is that it's impartial and transparent. This transparency affords a wealth of information pertaining to bidder activity and information will naturally lead to conspiracy theories. If any impropriety is believed to have occurred, please contact us so we can take action. Please avoid jumping to emotional conclusions and let the data determine what’s right or wrong. Nobody cares more about the auction integrity than us. I assure you your time will not be wasted and we will research your claim. Help us make it better!

Thanks again to all who help make this hobby honest. Collector confidence is our #1 priority; without trust, we don't have much to offer our clients.

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
brent@pwccauctions.com
510-725-7853
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:58 PM
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Thank you for your response.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:03 PM
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Default Never heard the concern before about scans?

"Frankly, this is the first time we have heard anybody suggest our scans were misleading."

Uh.... there is this ...... from CU

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Wednesday April 10, 2013 12:40 PM



As a general rule we try to stay out of the message boards because we feel they should be dominated by buyers/collections who are allowed to communicate freely, without intervention from sellers, dealers, auction houses, etc.

In rare cases we do feel a need to respond, most often when claims are made that simply warrant a response. To not respond may somehow suggest we condone slanderous comments, which of course we do not.

In particular, we are writing in response to baseless claims that we somehow are manipulating our scans. Such accusations are ridiculous and I ask that folks please remain substantive in their accusations of any company (not just PWCC). We are not altering our scans, in fact we go to great length to ensure the images we provide are as close to life-like as humanly possible. Obviously, if we were altering images we'd have plenty of upset buyers... right? Aside from the obvious moral objection associated with this level of misrepresentation, the shear workload associated with having to manipulate scans would be stagging. So even if you don't trust us personally, perhaps you can trust the practical impossibility of such an accusation.

The other topic I'd like to comment on is more general and it regards the overarching negativity that seems to stir around honesty and the hobby. As a fellow collector, I absolutely identify with the frustrations we've all felt from the past with various signs of impropriety. No doubt, history has shown a good number instances related to bid manipulations and other forms of fraud in the hobby... I get it. That said, we at PWCC have worked tirelessly to distance ourselves from these issues and feel we offer the single cleanest, most transparent auction venue in the hobby. We don't own the eBay software so we don't know the bid amounts, bidder IDs are available to the world with bid statistics, and our auctions are actively monitored by eBay trust and safety for improper bid retractions and various other activities from non-reputable members, etc. We ask that folks reach out to us directly if any signs of impropriety are detected and while these concerns are almost always explained, we always respond and address every concern in earnest.

The hobby is very strong these days and record prices are being realized on a regular basis (across the entire hobby; not just in our auctions). I ask that folks please exercise reason before posting slanderous comments about any company. For PWCC in particular, I ask that you please reach out to us directly (and post to this message board if required) but please give us a chance to address concerns directly. Our contact information is below.

Thanks to everyone who's an active member on this board; this is a very important part of the hobby.

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions
brent@pwccauctions.com
510-725-7853
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:07 PM
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Lolololololololol
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:11 PM
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"Frankly, this is the first time we have heard anybody suggest our scans were misleading."

Ummmmm, er, ahhhh, I meant the 2ND time I heard about it.

LMAO..............this is classic.

Mark
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:11 PM
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getting popcorn....................
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:14 PM
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Pesky paper trail!
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cincyredlegs View Post
"Frankly, this is the first time we have heard anybody suggest our scans were misleading."

Ummmmm, er, ahhhh, I meant the 2ND time I heard about it.

LMAO..............this is classic.

Mark
Those inconvenient paper trails.....
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Huigens View Post
Thanks to everyone who has written here in a fair manner. These message boards provide a valuable check & balance to the hobby and we are not exempt from harsh (accurate or inaccurate) criticism.

From reading the comments and concerns on this thread it appears that there are two primary issues raised:

1) some folks feel scans sometimes appear inaccurate to how the card appears in person.

Scanning is something we take pride in doing right. Obviously we have no interest in misrepresenting a card as it would only hurt our buyer satisfaction. Frankly, this is the first time we have heard anybody suggest our scans were misleading. On that note, I can confirm that we've recently introduced some new scanners and that our settings have fluctuated somewhat over the last 90 days. However, the images we are now producing are exactly as we'd like them to appear so I ask that folks consider the images in current auctions and forward any examples that you feel are inaccurate. Please also remember that much of how a scan appears is as affected by the settings on the monitor you're using and if the scans appear overly bright (for example) you may want to consider lowering the brightness on your monitor.

Just to confirm, our scans are never enhanced artificially. We do have to specify certain parameters when the image is captured but all items sold receive the same settings and never is a single item isolated and adjusted in any way. Even if you don't like our scans, at least you be assured that they are 100% consistent from card to card.

Lastly, we have dedicated more time and effort to the scanning process than perhaps any other auction house. Yes, our images SHOULD appear brighter and clearer than your average scanner which often produce a grayish, sometimes foggy filter over the image. Our goal is have the card appear as it does in-person under quality lighting... nothing more, and nothing less.

2) questions surrounding bid retractions, etc

This is a valid concern and one we take very seriously. In fact, we are the only seller I'm aware of that actually prosecutes bid retractors. Anyone who retracts a bid in our auction is flagged by eBay trust and safety and their account is labeled with the improper action. Buyers will receive notices from eBay specifying their improper action and after a few retractions their account will be suspended. Furthermore, anyone who retracts a bid in a manner which we feel is highly unethical (i.e. perceived as possibly manipulating an auction) with have their account immediately blocked from future bidding with PWCC.

eBay has a weak policy on bid retractors and we are working with them to strengthen their position and issue more account restrictions when retractions occur.

Our policy on bid manipulation is firm, and has teeth. Any ID felt to be participating in an improper manner is blocked from bidding and reported to eBay. Any consignor who we feel may be manipulating their own auctions is also blocked from doing business with us and will have their IDs block and reported; this latter scenario is rare but has occurred. We have zero patience for this sort of activity and will pursue improper behavior with every resource we have available.

-------------------------------------

A couple comments that we ask all auction participants to consider as they help us police the eBay marketplace:
1) just because a bidder places 50% or more of their bids with PWCC does not suggest they are manipulating an auction. We have over 15,000 unique past buyers and many of these past customers appreciate the service we provide and choose to bid with us for the majority of their eBay bids. We have some clients who bid exclusively with us and will show bid percentages of 80% or higher. The critical detail to research is whether or not these bidders have received feedback from us for past purchases. A flag for us is any bidder with a high % of bids but little to no feedback; statistically it is unlikely that a bidder would place many bids, perhaps largely with only our account, and not win any items. Bidders with this sort of track record are usually blocked.

2) just because a bidder places multiple bids (even 10+ bids) on a single item is not automatically label that bidder as a shill participant. In researching countless situations like this, it has become abundantly clear that many eBay bidders choose to bid in ways that some would consider eccentric... they feel it's part of the fun of bidding on eBay. Until eBay changes its minimum bid increment, this sort of behavior may continue. What is important to look for are bidders who place multiple bids until becoming the high bidder and then retract their bid. Bidders who bid in this fashion are quickly blocked by us and are reported to eBay.

3) Please keep eBay in perspective with the other non-eBay auction venues. The beauty of eBay is that it's impartial and transparent. This transparency affords a wealth of information pertaining to bidder activity and information will naturally lead to conspiracy theories. If any impropriety is believed to have occurred, please contact us so we can take action. Please avoid jumping to emotional conclusions and let the data determine what’s right or wrong. Nobody cares more about the auction integrity than us. I assure you your time will not be wasted and we will research your claim. Help us make it better!

Thanks again to all who help make this hobby honest. Collector confidence is our #1 priority; without trust, we don't have much to offer our clients.

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
brent@pwccauctions.com
510-725-7853

Here is the crux of the problem:

Keep in my that I am not one of the ones who accused them of wrongdoing since I have not really examined their scans. But based on the post above, PWCC writes that they do in fact adjust the settings on their scanner. Even if they scan all the cards at the same settings, I find that problematic. You can change the contrast and the hue among other things to enhance the visual effects of the scan. Brent may insist that it is being done to make the scan more accurate, but I feel that in fact it is causing many complaints that the scans are enhanced.

I am among the crowd who strongly feel that scans ought not be enhanced in this matter by changing the settings - the work ought to be done on the standard settings of the scanner. I understand the counter-argument that, to him, it might make the card appear more realistic, but others will invariably feel otherwise, and this has exposed him to a tremendous amount of criticism. I would highly recommend resetting the settings back to normal on the scans - other auction houses are also tampering with the settings and I find it exasperating (and indeed question the legality of such an act).

As for the shill bidding and bid retractions, PWCC's efforts are appreciated, but it does appear to be happening on a rather frequent basis, if the reports of the posters here are any measure. Maybe it's time for PWCC to double down on their efforts? At any rate, I greatly appreciate Brent responding and that is a major, MAJOR first step that I think everyone here can respect. So, thank you, Brent!
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:26 PM
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"At any rate, I greatly appreciate Brent responding and that is a major, MAJOR first step that I think everyone here can respect."

Given that he started his post with a blatant lie (saying he had never heard the concern about scans before, when he had made a lengthy response to a thread on CU on precisely that point just a few months ago, as posted above), I respectfullly dissent from that assessment.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
"At any rate, I greatly appreciate Brent responding and that is a major, MAJOR first step that I think everyone here can respect."

Given that he started his post with a blatant lie (saying he had never heard the concern about scans before, when he had made a lengthy response to a thread on CU on precisely that point just a few months ago, as posted above), I respectfullly dissent from that assessment.
Fair enough, but the disclosure that he was indeed changing the settings of the scanner was really the more pertinent information that we have been looking for. About that, he was direct, so I do respect that.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyseymour View Post
Fair enough, but the disclosure that he was indeed changing the settings of the scanner was really the more pertinent information that we have been looking for. About that, he was direct, so I do respect that.
Actually, to me, except for making the mistake of 1 or 2 times hearing about it, the whole post from Brent was spot on. I hope if someone sends him a report of a major bid retractor bidding in his auctions that he will take action. On the scanner settings, I always leave them at their defaults. It's just the best way and it seems to be the most accurate scans, all in all.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
"At any rate, I greatly appreciate Brent responding and that is a major, MAJOR first step that I think everyone here can respect."

Given that he started his post with a blatant lie (saying he had never heard the concern about scans before, when he had made a lengthy response to a thread on CU on precisely that point just a few months ago, as posted above), I respectfullly dissent from that assessment.
Kind of hard to continue reading his post after the obvious lie at the beginning. In a trial, the jury would be given an instruction that they could infer that the rest of his "testimony" is filled with lies as well.

Edited to add: why is it only suspect auction houses which have difficulty wth their scanners? And why is the gosh darned settings errors always such that the scans are too bright to capture any wrinkles or creases in the cards?

Last edited by calvindog; 10-18-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:01 PM
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Actually, to me, except for making the mistake of 1 or 2 times hearing about it, the whole post from Brent was spot on. I hope if someone sends him a report of a major bid retractor bidding in his auctions that he will take action. On the scanner settings, I always leave them at their defaults. It's just the best way and it seems to be the most accurate scans, all in all.
Leon,

Not sure he is planning on doing anything though about the general bid retractions outside of his auctions. But at the same time, as long as they aren't retracting bids on his auctions, why should it matter to him?

"Anyone who retracts a bid in our auction is flagged by eBay trust and safety and their account is labeled with the improper action."

Can we actual tell if someone retracted a bid in one of HIS auctions (or any SPECIFIC auction)? Ebay reports retraction totals, but I'll leave it to one of the experts to answer this.

Obviously that is a "bigger picture" problem. And if it doesn't matter to ebay, why should it matter to any particular seller (beyond their own auctions)?
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Edited to add: why is it only suspect auction houses which have difficulty wth their scanners? And why is the gosh darned settings errors always such that the scans are too bright to capture any wrinkles or creases in the cards?
I don't know, but the obvious solution is that auction houses ought to disclose in their terms exactly which scanner it is that they're using and what exactly the settings are.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:14 PM
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I don't know, but the obvious solution is that auction houses ought to disclose in their terms exactly which scanner it is that they're using and what exactly the settings are.
Or they could simply stop screwing around with the scans in an effort to hide the flaws of the cards they're selling.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:15 PM
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Leon,

Not sure he is planning on doing anything though about the general bid retractions outside of his auctions. But at the same time, as long as they aren't retracting bids on his auctions, why should it matter to him?

"Anyone who retracts a bid in our auction is flagged by eBay trust and safety and their account is labeled with the improper action."

Can we actual tell if someone retracted a bid in one of HIS auctions (or any SPECIFIC auction)? Ebay reports retraction totals, but I'll leave it to one of the experts to answer this.

Obviously that is a "bigger picture" problem. And if it doesn't matter to ebay, why should it matter to any particular seller (beyond their own auctions)?
I would only be concerned what happens in my (in this case Brent's) auctions. If someone has 50 bid retractions in others auctions, not my concern. If they have 50, then retract one in mine, they would be out. I guess we could have any number of scenarios but I don't think (could be wrong) anyone is asking Brent to do anything other than in his own auctions. I think if you look back at my post I stated something to the effect, if a member has lots of bid retractions, then does it in my auction, I would boot them...and I would. Hope this clarifies my statement.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:18 PM
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Or they could simply stop screwing around with the scans in an effort to hide the flaws of the cards they're selling.
If they revealed which scanner/settings they were using, it would go a long way towards accomplishing that.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:25 PM
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I don't know any of my scanner settings -- but I know which cards I've tweaked to make them look brighter. This isn't rocket science. Brent knows exactly what he's doing.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:44 PM
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I don't know any of my scanner settings -- but I know which cards I've tweaked to make them look brighter. This isn't rocket science. Brent knows exactly what he's doing.
Congrats on your 3,000th post.

There is no question that Brent knows what he's doing. And there's no question the other AH's do as well. It's a question of what we can do. It could be difficult to force the ones who are image editing to change. Constructive steps need to be taken. Auction houses that don't image edit can put that in their terms and it could be a boon to them. It shows that they have committed to a clean auction.

As for the ones that change their settings, we don't have to like it. But having them disclose it in their terms would still be a major step forward. Until this afternoon, not a single AH had confessed to changing scanner settings. Brent stepped forward and became accountable. That is much better than the mystery game we were playing previously. It doesn't make him a hero, but it is a big step.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Actually, to me, except for making the mistake of 1 or 2 times hearing about it, the whole post from Brent was spot on. I hope if someone sends him a report of a major bid retractor bidding in his auctions that he will take action. On the scanner settings, I always leave them at their defaults. It's just the best way and it seems to be the most accurate scans, all in all.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? EDIT TO ADD It was a blatant lie, not a "mistake."
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Edited to add: why is it only suspect auction houses which have difficulty wth their scanners? And why is the gosh darned settings errors always such that the scans are too bright to capture any wrinkles or creases in the cards?
Same reason the high grade cards are usually too small, not too big.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:12 PM
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Brent stepped forward and became accountable.
Respectfully, I disagree completely. Brent responded with a bullshit lie because he felt pressured to respond. Blaming it on our monitors? Please. For some reason my monitor works fine when viewing Rob Lifson's scans, not so fine when viewing Brent's.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:15 PM
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Silence speaks volumes, I cant see how any real bidder could have more than one retraction. I have never had one!
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:46 PM
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cyseymour cyseymour is offline
Ja,mie B.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Respectfully, I disagree completely. Brent responded with a bullshit lie because he felt pressured to respond. Blaming it on our monitors? Please. For some reason my monitor works fine when viewing Rob Lifson's scans, not so fine when viewing Brent's.
Nevermind Brent, then - what do you plan to do about the problem? As far as I can tell, Jeff, you are long on complaints, as legitimate as they may be, and short on solutions. Whether Brent wins Boy Scout Trooper of the Year is not the issue - the greater issue is, how do we stop AH's from jacking up their scans?
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