Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies

[jchcollins]

I listened to about 10 minutes of it. If I’m not someone who is already familiar with PWCC and the backstory there and issues that have already been brought up in this or other threads, what he’s saying doesn’t seem outlandish to me - but it also seems unnecessary. If we have no evidence on the card, then no “alteration” was done. Of course, if you get a card in with an erased pencil mark and you were not on hand to see the erasing being done, and it left no traces whatsoever on the card - even being viewed “30 different ways in 20 different lights and 10 different magnifications” or whatever it was he said - then no, you aren’t going to call that card “altered”. Not outing previous known card doctors that PWCC likely made a fortune with and things like that is outside the scope of what I can knowledgeably speak to. If I believe what I have read on Net54 and then listen to 10 mins of Brent, it seems like he is offering to address something that is not really the issue to whitewash a much larger problem.


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[drcy]

He has been accused of selling hundreds of doctored/altered cards in graded holders-- and, I don't know, but some have said knowingly selling cards from well known card doctors-- , and is now trying to explain that certain types of alterations are okay and not even alterations, they don't have to be disclosed to the buyer, and, essentially, that "if you can't tell that a doctored card hasn't been doctored, it isn't doctored,"-- which is reminiscent of the old steroid baseball era saying "it's not cheating if you don't get caught."

Am I a zealot who thinks using a pantyhose to remove a wax stain from the back of a card a mortal sin? No. Do I think a card that has had a pencil mark erased or wax stain removed can legitimately receive a 10? No. I assume the card may be deserving of a number grade, but no 10. Perfectly gradable 2s and 3s have varying damage including sometimes identified by the grader pencil, erasure and pen marks, but a legitimate 10 cannot be created or be the product of working on the card.

So doing something to the card isn't necessarily bad or unethical (I'm not saying it's wrong to remove a wax stain or pencil mark or have the card conserved), and in instances, the card may still be deserving of a number grade, but what has been done should be factored into the grade.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by drcy

He has been accused of selling hundreds of doctored/altered cards in graded holders-- and, I don't know, but some have said knowingly selling cards from well known card doctors-- , and is now trying to explain that certain types of alterations are okay and not even alterations, they don't have to be disclosed to the buyer, and, essentially, that "if you can't tell that a doctored card hasn't been doctored, it isn't doctored,"-- which is reminiscent of the old steroid baseball era saying "it's not cheating if you don't get caught."

Am I a zealot who thinks using a pantyhose to remove a wax stain from the back of a card a mortal sin? No.

Exactly...Brent is trying to change "the rules" as to what's acceptable in the hobby to justify past indescretions.

Who the "F" is Brent to think he can just decide what should be acceptable?

BRENT IS NOT GOOD FOR THIS HOBBY!

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Exactly...Brent is trying to change "the rules" as to what's acceptable in the hobby to justify past indescretions.

Who the "F" is Brent to think he can just decide what should be acceptable?

BRENT IS NOT GOOD FOR THIS HOBBY!

"Some hayseed in Oswego Lake"

[glynparson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by glynparson View Post
I don't think i have shaken my head so often and said you are full of shit more times in one hour in my entire life. I can not disagree more than i do with 99% of what he says. I had used them several times to sell for me. i don't think i will ever again. i just can't in good conscience despite the strong prices i received and the relatively quick payments. i am in this for the long haul and i don't think what he is trying to do is helpful for the hobby. I'll stick with REA and a couple other reputable sellers to consign with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by glynparson View Post
LOL.

"The interview had me between laughing and yelling at the screen. I didn't get when he said nobody has accused them of wrongdoing. I think we both know someone who has.
Glyn, I have always noticed you to be a staunch supporter of PSA grading so I am curious, in light of these recent developments here and on BO, if your good thoughts on PSA still remain? "

"I will admit, after reading some of your posts, you had me swaying back sometimes thinking maybe I was being too critical of them, but I can tell you with a 100% certainty now, I will never be swayed back based on what I have seen and learned on these 2 sites within the last couple weeks."





I think they make mistakes. I think all of them make mistakes. i still think their senior graders are very good at what they do. They obviously aren't perfect it is just that some of these doctors are damn good. These rough cuts they are doing now are downright scary. I am still a psa guy I don't think they are flawless I never did. I am more angry at what the card doctors have done. I am hopeful PSA will ban the doctors from submitting as it is not good for anyone. ANd i hope Brent does what he says in the video, but i hope he also notes all "conservation" he knows occurs not just what he determines is visible on the card but what he knows and or what is visible should be noted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I listened to about 10 minutes of it. If I’m not someone who is already familiar with PWCC and the backstory there and issues that have already been brought up in this or other threads, what he’s saying doesn’t seem outlandish to me - but it also seems unnecessary. If we have no evidence on the card, then no “alteration” was done. Of course, if you get a card in with an erased pencil mark and you were not on hand to see the erasing being done, and it left no traces whatsoever on the card - even being viewed “30 different ways in 20 different lights and 10 different magnifications” or whatever it was he said - then no, you aren’t going to call that card “altered”. Not outing previous known card doctors that PWCC likely made a fortune with and things like that is outside the scope of what I can knowledgeably speak to. If I believe what I have read on Net54 and then listen to 10 mins of Brent, it seems like he is offering to address something that is not really the issue to whitewash a much larger problem.


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I disagree to some extent. I believe, and people who know much more than I do I think can confirm, that if you look hard enough you can always find evidence certainly of stain removal with solvents, and crease and wrinkle removal. So his self serving proclamation is wrong. It could well be altered even if in ordinary circumstances you might not know it. That makes it skilled alteration, not an absence of alteration.

If this BS is good for the hobby, well you can have the hobby.

[Exhibitman]

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1982758

"They simply don't come looking like this."

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1982758

"They simply don't come looking like this."

substitute george mikan rookie card with loch ness monster!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing

Look at the right border. It's really wavy. You can tell more from the back view, but you can see it from the front as well.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Look at the right border. It's really wavy. You can tell more from the back view, but you can see it from the front as well.

Agreed, but it looks like a long wave, more of a tsunami, if that's part of the hobby lexicon. I'd give it a Tsunami Sticker.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Look at the right border. It's really wavy. You can tell more from the back view, but you can see it from the front as well.

Lower right corner? First thing I noticed. Is the other edge wavy too and just obscured by the slat, not sure. Doesn't look like a rough cut in any event. Older grade too. But hey, as we all know, PWCC would probably get the same price just showing the flip.

[irv]

Originally Posted by irv

Glyn, I have always noticed you to be a staunch supporter of PSA grading so I am curious, in light of these recent developments here and on BO, if your good thoughts on PSA still remain?

I will admit, after reading some of your posts, you had me swaying back sometimes thinking maybe I was being too critical of them, but I can tell you with a 100% certainty now, I will never be swayed back based on what I have seen and learned on these 2 sites within the last couple weeks.

Originally Posted by glynparson

Quote:
I think they make mistakes. I think all of them make mistakes. i still think their senior graders are very good at what they do. They obviously aren't perfect it is just that some of these doctors are damn good. These rough cuts they are doing now are downright scary. I am still a psa guy I don't think they are flawless I never did. I am more angry at what the card doctors have done. I am hopeful PSA will ban the doctors from submitting as it is not good for anyone. ANd i hope Brent does what he says in the video, but i hope he also notes all "conservation" he knows occurs not just what he determines is visible on the card but what he knows and or what is visible should be noted.

I thought you might still answer this way? Your lack of acknowledging them in these PWCC threads lead me to believe that you'd still defend them.

The thing is, your reply is the same as it has always been, that some make mistakes.
I'm not trying to convert you to change your view but have you been following the Blow Out threads?

In my opinion, it is practically conclusive now that something fishy/nefarious is going on with them based on what I have seen that gets passed and assigned a numerical grade.

My opinion, like I stated earlier, was wishy washy once upon a time based on what you stated about them but with these recent PSA slabs that are being shown in just these past couple weeks alone, it is enough for me to cement my opinion.

It is clear, to me at least, based on what I have seen that I can no longer accept that these cards were simple mistakes made by the graders. I could accept the odd one here or there but there are far way too many of them now to even consider that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

They play a numbers game, David, if enough get through, and they know from experience, they make money. You're wildly speculating at this point. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, but you have no idea either.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

David, I have to say that I somewhat agree with you. I have seen over the years, Sellers with extremely high end T206s get grades that boggled the mind. I dont want to mention names, but two of them have represented hundreds of high end T206s on Ebay. I'm talking 8's and 9's that weren't even close to being right. To me, this seems like something that could easily be corrupted with graders and crooked owners. Afterall, the margin between higher end grades can be very marginal unless you really look at these cards on a regular basis...One of these Sellers recently sold a ton of 8's that just weren't close to the grade IMO....I'm sure it also happens in other series of cards as well....

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

Well, no matter how hard I look, I don't see anywhere on the PSA website where they indicate that they will get it right unless the card has been altered by very good card doctors so it slips by them. Up to now, I sort of thought that getting it right was part of what PSA sold. Very clearly, that is not always the case.

I frankly have no idea how many mistakes they make on high-grade cards, where accuracy would seem to be rather important given the prices they now command, but just the number shown so far is more than sufficient to cause me concern. As I have previously said, trust is what PSA purportedly sells. I no longer trust PSA to get it right. The claim that it might be a "low percentage" of cards (thus far) is rather less important to me than the fact that a large percentage of those shown thus far are selling for a lot of money. That's not good.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

I know they grade a pile of cards, Peter, but even before this latest scandal, I seen far too many questionable grades and other things that made me put up a red flag.
With this latest scandal and all that I have seen on BO concerning this, I can no longer say to myself, these are just mistakes and mistakes happen.

I know people have a pile of money wrapped up in PSA graded cards so I understand those that don't want to accept something peculiar is going on with PSA but, imo, the evidence is glaring something is.

[vthobby]

Here are some 1948 Bowmans that have NEVER been touched, bleached, trimmed or anything.......I'm not making an opinion on the Mikan, I just know where these 1948s came from so you can make your own comparisons.
They came from an original family's collection of 1948 low numbers. This is how real untouched 1948 Bowmans looks like. I still feel they are under graded but I'm biased as they are mine! You can also see how they almost fully fill the gaskets with barely no room to spare.
Just for comparison only!
Thanks! Mike

002.jpg

005.jpg

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[vintagewhitesox]

This is going to be exhibit A in the Criminal complaint and search warrant. It's almost like he's trying to define away the term fraud.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1982758

"They simply don't come looking like this."

delete