UPDATED 5/16: BEWARE PAYPAL CHARGEBACKS! If you sell on eBay, read this...

[Baseball Fan]

Originally Posted by jbbama

This kind of scenario really sucks, i hate that you have to deal with this BS. Just an FYI for anyone here, NEVER, NEVER, leave large amounts of money in your paypal account. Also, have that account tied to something other than your primary checking or savings account. Yes, paypal can "freeze your account" until resolved, but at least they dont have your money...you do! I learned this lesson the hard way several years back. Go get 'em......

Quick question. What could the account be tied to if not checking or savings? I would possibly like to make this change due to this thread.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Baseball Fan

Quick question. What could the account be tied to if not checking or savings? I would possibly like to make this change due to this thread.

Just open a new new checking/ savings account at any bank. Like eBay IDs you an have as many as you want.

[callou2131]

Ebay is losing a lot of card sellers because of things like this. Credit card claims, sending back empty top loaders and getting refunds, etc. The worst is the INAD on prospects. Someone buys a rookie card of player A while they are in spring training. 5 months later the player blows out a knee, or just sucks, and his card values plummet. They return the card that is now worth a quarter what it was worth. Could you imagine if you were in the stock market and could change your mind after 5 months on a stock you bought? These are liquid items, and it needs to stop.

[Baseball Fan]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just open a new new checking/ savings account at any bank. Like eBay IDs you an have as many as you want.

So, if I have a second account that doesn't have any money it in, they still wouldn't be able to come at me and demand I refund somebody after six months?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Baseball Fan

So, if I have a second account that doesn't have any money it in, they still wouldn't be able to come at me and demand I refund somebody after six months?

They will still be able to come after you but they will not be able to take $ from an account that doesn't have any $ in it.

If it is a fraudulent return/scam you can clear it up while keeping your $ during the process. Now if someone wants to return a item 1 day short of 6 months there is very little you can do but return the $ after they return the item.

There is really no way to avoid the scammers. The good part is even with all the horror stories scammers are fairly rare. Back when I was a bigger seller on eBay I just figured 1 out of 100 sales was going to be a problem. Then about 1 out of 10 of them was going to be a real problem. Just the risk you have to take to sell on eBay.

[Baseball Fan]

Originally Posted by bnorth

They will still be able to come after you but they will not be able to take $ from an account that doesn't have any $ in it.

If it is a fraudulent return/scam you can clear it up while keeping your $ during the process. Now if someone wants to return a item 1 day short of 6 months there is very little you can do but return the $ after they return the item.

There is really no way to avoid the scammers. The good part is even with all the horror stories scammers are fairly rare. Back when I was a bigger seller on eBay I just figured 1 out of 100 sales was going to be a problem. Then about 1 out of 10 of them was going to be a real problem. Just the risk you have to take to sell on eBay.

Cool. Thanks.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by jbbama

This kind of scenario really sucks, i hate that you have to deal with this BS. Just an FYI for anyone here, NEVER, NEVER, leave large amounts of money in your paypal account. Also, have that account tied to something other than your primary checking or savings account. Yes, paypal can "freeze your account" until resolved, but at least they dont have your money...you do!

This. I have a dedicated checking account tied to PayPal and whenever it has more than a hundred bucks I sweep the excess to a savings account that is not tied into PayPal. If I sell something big that money goes right to the savings account and does not linger in my PayPal account or the dedicated checking account.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just open a new new checking/ savings account at any bank. Like eBay IDs you an have as many as you want.

IF you ever had the main account tied to PayPal, they will go after the funds even if it isn't currently attached to your account. It would be better to open a new account that paypal doesn't know about and park most of your money there.

[sportscardtheory]

I would think that PayPal taking funds from your bank/credit account would also give you the right to refute that "charge" through YOUR bank/credit provider, as the fraudster did. As in, do the same thing back to them.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by rats60

IF you ever had the main account tied to PayPal, they will go after the funds even if it isn't currently attached to your account. It would be better to open a new account that paypal doesn't know about and park most of your money there.

I don't think that's legal. If I rescind my permission to access my account they can't just go ahead and access it.

[Jobu]

I recently opened a second account at my bank as a PayPal landing account. This new account is the only one tied to PayPal and I move the money out of it to another account at the same bank (which is an instant transfer).

My question: if PayPal tried to draw out of the empty account, would my bank use my other accounts to cover it like they do when they pull money from your savings account to cover a check larger than their checking balance? In other words, does my PayPal landing account need to be a different account number at my primary bank or an account at a bank where I have no other accounts? (The latter would be annoying bc transfers can take a few days and would make it harder to buy things on bst using my balance.)

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I recently opened a second account at my bank as a PayPal landing account. This new account is the only one tied to PayPal and I move the money out of it to another account at the same bank (which is an instant transfer).

My question: if PayPal tried to draw out of the empty account, would my bank use my other accounts to cover it like they do when they pull money from your savings account to cover a check larger than their checking balance? In other words, does my PayPal landing account need to be a different account number at my primary bank or an account at a bank where I have no other accounts? (The latter would be annoying bc transfers can take a few days and would make it harder to buy things on bst using my balance.)

If PayPal can’t draw funds from an account to get your balance back to zero, they just submit your information to a collection agency. That’s why disconnecting your bank account from PayPal in a chargeback won’t work.

[Exhibitman]

Well, except that you can fight a collection agency and not pay unless you lose, and if you have proof of a fraudulent charge-back a court might let you go. If PayPal simply loots your account then you have to sue to chase it down rather than vice versa. i'd rather defend with cash in hand than have to go chase cash.

[Popcorn]

After PayPal put $2,000 on hold and then gave it all back to a 0 feedback buyer who claimed to receive a “empty box” I have never kept anything over a $1 in my account. Even if I sell a $10 card it’s getting transferred to my bank ASAP lol

[ramram]

When selling on ebay, is there a way to require a minimum positive feedback score, say 30, or the bid won't be accepted?

Rob M

[Jobu]

Yep -- kinda. Visit:

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/li...ements?id=4152

...and then click the link in #1 Buyer Requirements. There are several options, though not the exact one you are after.

Originally Posted by ramram

When selling on ebay, is there a way to require a minimum positive feedback score, say 30, or the bid won't be accepted?

Rob M

[ramram]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Yep -- kinda. Visit:

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/li...ements?id=4152

...and then click the link in #1 Buyer Requirements. There are several options, though not the exact one you are after.

Thanks Bryan

[Roulette44]

Yes, but Ebay won't let you restrict prospective buyers to 30 feedback (or 20....10.....5). You literally can't protect yourself as the seller and an unscrupulous buyer can play this "item not as described" or "item not received" scam..... It's so frustrating..

[bounce]

Update on this shortly

[bounce]

So - finally got resolution on this case.

The chargeback case was "decided in my favor", thankfully.

Summary of what happened:
- Sold a card through eBay on January 2nd.
- Shipped it signature required etc. based on the Seller's Protection guidelines at Paypal, on January 3rd.
- Notice was left on January 5th, buyer signed for it on January 9th.
- Buyer left me positive feedback on eBay shortly after that.
- Not quite two months later, Paypal freezes the funds in my account saying the buyer (or maybe financial institution, never was clear on who initiated this) had filed a claim for a "refund not received".
- Sent Paypal all my info, including eBay and other information to demonstrate that no refund had ever been requested.
- Had three different phone calls with Paypal, and basically was told there was nothing they could do, other than dispute the chargeback with the financial institution.
- They also told me because it was a "refund not received" request, it wasn't covered under Seller Protection, even though they acknowledged verbally I had never been asked to give a refund. More on that later.
- The process can take up to 75 days to decide. I posted this on March 1, and got the money back on May 14. Looks like every single one of those days was used in this case.

This was one of the most confusing and frustrating things I've encountered in what it literally almost 20 years of being on eBay.

It sure feels like this is a big loophole that buyers/financial institutions can try to exploit. I was literally told during this process that there was nothing else I could have done to put myself in any better position, yet the money still got hung up for 2.5 months, and that clock only started nearly 2 months after I originally sold the card. So from sale date to resolution, it was 4.5 months.

How this could have ever been initiated without an actual request for refund is bizarre - I still don't understand what that was an absolute requirement to even begin the process.

Why it wasn't covered under Seller Protection is equally bizarre, considering I had followed the requirements (despite what seemed to be at least a temporary glitch in the Paypal site, but not the USPS site), and provided that information as quickly as I could.

Why it took all 75 days to finally be resolved is certainly frustrating.

Anyway, good news is it ended as it should have.

[MikeGarcia]

Can you tell us the E-Bay ID ( and city ) of the scam artist who tried to do this . So we don't also go through the same deal. Thanks.

..

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bounce

UPDATE: Go to post 70 to see final resolution and summary, case ended in my favor so I did get the money. Long wait, but fortunately it's resolved now.


I don't always comment on things like this, but this one takes the cake and I feel obligated to warn everyone who may be selling anything online to be very wary.

I've currently got a dispute going at Paypal for a card I sold in January.

I sold a card on eBay on January 2nd.
Buyer paid on January 2nd, I received funds via Paypal.
I shipped priority mail, insured, signature confirmation on January 3rd.
*NOTE: Interesting fact on this, USPS shows all that. Paypal doesn't show the signature confirmation service, more on that in a moment.
On January 5th, USPS left a notice with the buyer.
On January 9th, buyer signed for the card.
Shortly thereafter, I was given positive feedback on eBay from the buyer.

Buyer has subsequently gone to their "financial institution", who has then gone to Paypal and filed a claim against me for "Refund not received" in middle of February.

Paypal initially put the funds on hold, but earlier this week took them permanently from my account.

First, they said that it wasn't covered under buyer protection because it didn't have signature required. I've proven to them that it did, and had included that information when I first responded to the case. Today I sent them the pdf showing the signature from the USPS records.

Once that was resolved, they've now said that it still doesn't matter because the seller protection DOES NOT cover "refund not received".

I have shown Paypal that there was NO REQUEST for refund on their site (which they agree with), and that NO REQUEST for refund was made on eBay either (which they agree with).

I also spoke to eBay today, who said they're not involved any more because Paypal handles the money. They acknowledged no request for refund had been made of me on eBay, and they acknowledged I had received positive feedback on the transaction.

As it stands at this moment, Paypal is telling me that the decision is in the hands of the buyer's "financial institution", who of course I don't know who that is and neither eBay or Paypal will give me that information. I asked them both, and both said they couldn't provide it even if they had it (which eBay says they do not).

Paypal of course says they are fighting for me as their customer, but have no intention of covering me under seller protection because again that DOES NOT include "Refund not received". Why they didn't tell the other "financial institution" that no request for refund has been submitted, and no evidence of return of the item has been demonstrated, before taking the funds out of my Paypal account I have no idea.

The Paypal representative also told me the following, I'm paraphrasing but they're pretty close to quotes.
1) Federal law allows buyers to dispute charges with their financial institutions (which I certainly understand), and there's nothing Paypal can really do about that other than provide what evidence I may give them of a valid sale (which I've already done).

2) The only way I can prevent risk of chargeback is to accept cash. Yes, a Paypal representative said that out loud to me today on the phone.

3) If the financial institution sides with their customer (what do you think they're otherwise going to do? I asked my Paypal rep), my only recourse at that point is to try and recover the card back through small claims court.


I'll update this more as this unfolds, but as of right now it looks like I'm out $1,425.

Felt obligated to share, because at this point I have zero expectation of getting the card or my money back, and the implications of this for any other item I sell through eBay has me seriously considering if my internet days as a seller are permanently at an end. I had not really investigated the payment options that I can accept on eBay, but I definitely will need to look into that now if this is how Paypal is going to defend me - which is to say basically they aren't. Why wouldn't everyone just dispute charges for "Refund not received" through their credit card company if it's really this easy to get Paypal to give seller's funds back over.

AND THAT would be the last time I use them. I would have my attorney sue PAY PAL. They are scum and I cut them off many years ago. This is sickening.

[AGuinness]

Glad it had a favorable resolution, even though the timeframe and hoops are ridiculous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

I believe Paypal just changed their T&C's to cover this type of scenario under their seller protection

[pokerplyr80]

Congrats on the favorable outcome. Hopefully AJ is right about this scenario now being covered. I think I will stick to either selling to people I know in the hobby or consigning to avoid situations like this though. Or at least make sure never to keep funds in my PayPal account.