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  #1  
Old 01-09-2008, 04:03 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: Craig

Recently purchased 14 cards from a person in California that was advertising on Craigslist. Cards were supposed to be graded PSA cards. I resold some on Ebay and one was questioned by the buyer and returned. I sent that one along with 2 others from the lot to PSA for examination. They called on 1/7/07 to confirm that the cards as well as the PSA labels were fakes. All buyers of the cards I sold had been notified and have been refunded or are in the process of being refunded and are sending the cards back. My Ebay id is c.e.heafield and some of the cards can be viewed in my feedback. The FBI has been contacted and a case has been opened to try to nail this guy. As of January 2nd he had posted a new ad on New Yorks Craigslst for the same cards again. Cards I purchased were 1933 Goudey Ruth #53 PSA 5, T206 Cobb Re portrait PSA 6,t206 Cobb Bat on PSA 6,1933 Goudey Lou Gehrig #92 PSA6,1934 Goudey Gehrig PSA5, 1952 Bowman Mantle PSA 6, 1954 Aaron (2) Psa7 and one PSA 6,1955 Clemente PSA6, (3) 1956 mantle PSA 7. He had also offered a 1951 PSA4 Bowman Mantle,but we didn't come to terms. Cards looked alright to the naked eye,but under aloop the cards and labels looked questionable. Do not trust the cert.#'s, I checked them all on PSA's website prior to purchase and they all came up right. Who knows how many of these cards are out there,so look out.

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  #2  
Old 01-09-2008, 04:44 AM
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Posted By: Steve Murray

Looked at the Bat On Cobb. Interesting that someone emailed you that the back was suspect but that there was no followup. To my eye even with the poor scans the card looks bad. Just more examples of too much reliance on the slab with little or no consideration of what's entombed therein.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=150193114423

With all that said, tough break, it has to be a colossal nuisance to unravel all those sales. Good luck getting the bad guy. Hope you can prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

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  #3  
Old 01-09-2008, 06:50 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: stefan

I normally don't post, but i do read this message board all the time.
I too have been hoodwinked by a gentleman in Cali. Do you happen to know whom the person was that you bought these fakes from?
stefan

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  #4  
Old 01-09-2008, 07:07 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: JK

I know that this really sucks and that you may very well be out a significant amount of money. However, I wanted to mention how refreshing it is to see someone who is willing to stand behind their sales and offer refunds when there is a problem rather than simply trying to pass the problem off on the buyer.

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  #5  
Old 01-09-2008, 07:15 AM
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Posted By: PC

Wow. You can tell from the scan of that Cobb card that, in addition to the back being wrong, the PSA logo should be in silver (but maybe that's just the scan). Just gets worse and worse.

Having the PSA cert. nos. public is good and bad, the bad part being that crooks can fake cards, holders and flips, and add a real cert. no.

Another problem is the seemingly infinite number of scans on the net. The counterfeiters can get cert. nos. from those scans (in addition to the time-tested rip-off, where the scan itself is stolen, and the seller sells a card he doesn't have).

Maybe the risk of faked holders is why SGC has begun to engrave the back of their holders? Seems it would be much harder to copy the engraving, as opposed to duplicating the gold foil/label on the back of the old SGC holders.

Also, I haven't looked in a while, but didn't PSA have a holder in the past that had some sort of engraving or raised/textured stamping on the back of the holder? If they did, probably a good time to think about reintroducing that.

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  #6  
Old 01-09-2008, 08:15 AM
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Posted By: Eric B

Maybe the Registry should expand to include information such as "In private collection - not for sale" until such time as the seller wants to sell it and informs PSA. Or something similar.

Of course if you include it for all cards (vintage to 1996 Topps McGwire as an example) it would get very expensive. And we all know who would pay for it.

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  #7  
Old 01-09-2008, 08:18 AM
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Posted By: Red

There’s absolutely nothing that SGC and PSA can do to prevent criminals from using an imitation of their product to run a scam. You don’t even need a physical item to run a scam. All you need is a stolen image or Photoshop skills.

What makes these scams so easy to pull off is there's a long line of people looking for bargains who are willing to take big risk in order to save and make a few dollars.

The good thing is that these scams are quickly discovered because it doesn't take long for a counterfeit item to get into the hands of somebody who knows what they’re looking at. The police get involved, the grading companies get involved, and hopefully the present situation is resolved. Then you just sit back and wait to see what the next criminal will try to pull off.

These scams happen a whole heck of a lot more with non-graded cards than they do with graded cards. Trying to incorporate PSA or SGC into their scam will get them exposed very quickly.

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  #8  
Old 01-09-2008, 08:18 AM
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Posted By: peter ullman

i saw some unusually old cards on craig's list last night too. Since they were listed in my hometown I figured they were being sold locally. There was a link to ebay which tipped me off that they were not. 40 Dimaggio, early 50's mantle, t202's. It seemed suspicious...good lluck.

pete ullman in mn

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  #9  
Old 01-09-2008, 08:33 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Although I feel bad for Craig and hope he gets his money back, this comes close to being "too good to be true". I don't look at Craigslist but if I had cards of this quality and value, that would be an awfully odd way to be selling them. That alone should have rung a warning bell.

You might find an old shoebox collection of cards from the 1960's, or something of that nature, but high end slabbed vintage cards are generally sold through other venues. Again, I feel bad for the buyer but I would never buy expensive baseball cards in this manner.

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  #10  
Old 01-09-2008, 08:53 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: Jimmy

I have had some bad experiences on Craigslist and stopped looking altogether, just seems to be more of setup for scams, even though eBay has problems as well. There just appears to be more issues and less trust when it comes to collectable items such as coins, sports cards and antiques. I did here about a year ago there was PSA counterfeit cards coming out of Japan that included Ruth and Cobb cards.

Jimmy

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  #11  
Old 01-09-2008, 10:34 AM
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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

PSA has a small raised logo on the bottom corner of the slab:




As mentioned months ago, collectors now need to watch out for doctored/fake flips as well. So far, fake flips are much eaiser to spot than one that has been doctored...those can be very difficult to tell even to the trained eye. IMO it's the future of alterations.


Kevin

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  #12  
Old 01-09-2008, 10:44 AM
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Posted By: Craig

Person I dealt with was Jose Hernandez. Not everybody wants to deal with and there fees,so I didn't think to much about that end of it at the time. The cards were not priced so cheap that they would make you suspicious. Regardless, It is true I relied too heavily as others on the thought these were graded by PSA and were real. That is supposed to be our security so that we don't have to be an expert on every card to feel safe purchasing it.
A very expensive lesson indeed.

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  #13  
Old 01-09-2008, 10:46 AM
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Posted By: Craig

All the card I got had the raised PSA logo on the case. Somehow this perso figured out a way to open slabs and reuse them without ruining them, which I had thought wasn't possible.

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  #14  
Old 01-09-2008, 11:42 AM
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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Somehow this perso figured out a way to open slabs and reuse them without ruining them, which I had thought wasn't possible."


From the Cobb picture I am almost certain that the top half (note the frosting on the top edge and part of each side)) was cracked and the card and flip slipped through. That's not difficult to do.

Sorry that you were scammed. I would put a link here to help out but last time I did that I got *Leonized.



Kevin




*Leonized - violating forum rules which gets Leroy angry or concerned enough enough to take action, either verbally, email or by way of a post .

at least spell my name correctly.....or your post will be vaporized

__________________________

Using the letter "y" was a test of your *moderability although you did add an extra "enough" after enough. My guess is enough is enough.


*moderability - the ability to moderate a large forum with eagle eyes and cat-like reflexes. Assuring nothing gets by without the highest degree of scrutiny.

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  #15  
Old 01-09-2008, 12:16 PM
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Posted By: stefan

Well the person whom i purchased from also had a very common name out in cali his name was rich Contreras.
I ate $7421 in losses.
sorry to here your loss as well.

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  #16  
Old 01-09-2008, 01:33 PM
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Posted By: Steve

WoW!1 Sorry to hear about all this.


Steve

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  #17  
Old 01-09-2008, 01:59 PM
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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Stefan and Craig,

What part of CA were these two selling from? And Stefan did you notify local authorities?

I see the frosted part of the holder on the Cobb but the holders look pretty legit. Maybe in person their having been cracked is more evident but from scans it is difficult to tell.

Sorry both of you got taken. Seems PSA is going to have to do a bit more to prevent this new wave of scam. Would have thought that the WIWAG situation would have made them more proactive in making things like this more difficult to pull off. Being able to do a cert check is nice but unless you are going to register the card you may not know that there are 4 Cobbs with the same cert number floating around.

Kevin S has already showed us that buffing out the holder after it has been opened is very possible and leaves no evidence of it once having been sealed. Not sure there is any way to prevent this kind of tampering but no longer can you buy sight unseen unless you know who you are buying from.

Greg


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  #18  
Old 01-09-2008, 02:37 PM
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Posted By: Craig

Address I was given was San Ysidro 92173, but I have 3 seperate USPS Express mail envelopes with zip codes of San Gabriel 91778,Alhambra 91802 and Arcadia 91006on the Postal service sticker.

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  #19  
Old 01-09-2008, 03:50 PM
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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Kevin S has already showed us that buffing out the holder after it has been opened is very possible and leaves no evidence of it once having been sealed."


Yes this is true Greg but it is an arduous task that takes "several" long hours to accomplish....and has some expense. IMO it would not be worth the time to do this on so many cards.

A simple top seam crack and card/flip replacement would fool many new collectors, since the holder remains in tact and the majority of the slab doesn’t look compromised. This easily done on both most PSA and SGC holders, without pry marks. Just my two cents.

I'll crack the top of a holder and post some clear pictures to help the collectors understand what to look for...if they already don't know. For most it will be a review or nothing new.


Kevin

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  #20  
Old 01-09-2008, 04:13 PM
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Posted By: Double-P-Enterprises

Normally I don't care about other people's problems but this is a major problem for any collector/buyer of vintage graded cards and any seller of graded cards. The T206 Cobb was easy to spot, the Ruth Goudey #53 looks questionable but the others are dead on and the holders are near perfection. I've been burned once on Ebay on a 33 Goudey Ruth and helped Joe Orlando take down a guy who was reholdering fake 52 Mantles in low grades. Both were easy to spot with a clear scan and even easier once you received the card/holder. I cannot fathom that all of the cards were fake and if they are, I am no longer comfortable buying or selling PSA graded cards and no one else should be. I consider myself an expert in this business and many of those I would not think to question.

Joe Orlando and PSA have a major problem on their hands and they need to deep dive into it immediately. The gentleman who purchased the cards may want to ask Mr. Orlando to assist in some of the loss as PSA will often do, especially if you assist them and their legal team to get these off the market.

This is great timing as I just viewed a lot from another seller that strikingly resembles the types of cards in question. The seller also has no history with this type of product. Lots of 80's and 90's Topps don't usually get grouped with $15K worth of the classics (even though I have both). Hate to "out" someone that's actually valid but this person probably got the same "deal" and is simply looking to flip and may not know (I was doing the math and preparing an offer 20 minutes before reading this post - I'll pass)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320205240980&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011

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  #21  
Old 01-09-2008, 04:22 PM
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Posted By: Brian Collie

I did a google search this weekend for "T3 PSA for Sale" - a bunch of listings on various craig lists from across the country popped up - pretty frightening to think I almost pulled the trigger.

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  #22  
Old 01-09-2008, 04:24 PM
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Posted By: Eric

This is the same guy that Double-P-Enterprises pointed out (or if he's not the same guy, has the same cards listed).

http://newyork.craigslist.org/jsy/clt/526670677.html

In the craigslist listing he goes by Fransisco and he leaves this number: 310-739-6391, which is the area code for Maryland.

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  #23  
Old 01-09-2008, 04:44 PM
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Posted By: Brad Green


301 is the area code for Maryland, not 310.

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  #24  
Old 01-09-2008, 04:46 PM
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Posted By: peter ullman

brad's right...i think 310 is west coast.

pete in mn

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  #25  
Old 01-09-2008, 04:50 PM
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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

PSA really needs to get involved in this but they won't. They barely got involved with the WIWAG ordeal and only did when they knew they could be found to have some liability. The manner in which they handled the whole mess showed they did not care about the public at all.

Odd that the guy on ebay is selling the same selection of cards.

If the ability to reseal holders and fool the general public is taking place can PSA (and other companies) be required to make their holders more tamper proof or tamper evident? PSA, to my knowledge, has never reimbursed a buyer for purchasing a card that was found to be resealed. Beckett, Pro and CSA are the only holders I have seen on the market that cannot be reused once opened.

Greg

Edited to add that 310 is Los Angeles.

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  #26  
Old 01-09-2008, 04:51 PM
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Posted By: Anthony S.

310 is western Los Angeles (the Santa Monica area)

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  #27  
Old 01-09-2008, 05:04 PM
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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Just noticed this same person ran the same cards with a 310 area code in the Lexington, KY craigslist as well back in November. Number is slight different, but definitely same list of cards.

http://lexington.craigslist.org/clt/488294822.html


Hope someone takes this jerk(s) down HARD!

Shawn

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  #28  
Old 01-09-2008, 05:04 PM
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Posted By: SH

First the unscrupulous dealers in New York and Florida from the 80's through the 90's ( for those long term collectors you know exactly who I mean ) and now this. I'm kind of glad I moved to non-sports.....you folks have a very very serious issue here which could take down the entire hobby or kill your investments in baseball cards. Now you'll need to get your graded cards graded before you buy or sell. Look a new buisness to get into... "Babe Ruth" autograp anyone?

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  #29  
Old 01-09-2008, 05:14 PM
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Posted By: Anonymous

Found this on Orlando Craigs list. Think it's the same guy?


1909-11 T206 HAPPY SMITH PSA 7!! BEAUTIFULLY CENTERED!!-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: sale-530574496@craigslist.org
Date: 2008-01-06, 6:29PM EST



making room and need to sell items!


??Eddie Plank 1910 Standard Caramel Co. ( E93 )*
^1911 T3 TURKEY RED #78 HOME RUN BAKER PSA 5& others!


View others similar at... pre1930mlbbaseballcards.bravehost.com





"In 1920, Babe Ruth broke the single season home run record, with 29. The same year, he became the first major leaguer to hit 30 home runs. The same year, he became the first major leaguer to hit 40 home runs. The same year, he became the first major leaguer to hit 50 home runs."


Edited to say
I'm sure that anyone with the right connections and a few bucks could get a Chinese company to make slabs. Shoot, they counterfeit everything else


One more time... I think this goes beyond just PSA there are an unusual amount of Key collected T206s in other slabs as well 4 Cobb bat on shoulder all at the same time isn't that kind of much?
Maybe I'm just freakin.

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  #30  
Old 01-09-2008, 05:26 PM
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Posted By: Mike Mccullough

http://tinyurl.com/259r9f

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  #31  
Old 01-09-2008, 05:36 PM
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Posted By: Double-P-Enterprises

After reviewing a bit more in depth and involving a couple hobby experts, the lot of similar cards on Ebay is without a doubt fake. The PSA labels are good and some of the best I've seen. But look carefully at the spacing of the condition (EX-MT). In almost all cases, legit PSA holders will have a space before and after the dash (EX - MT)(VG - EX) for example. As with any counterfeit, something is always missed (fortunately).

I have no more time to spend on this but it sure would be nice if someone had some law enforcement contacts in the NY area that could jump on it. Last I checked, fraud with this type of dollars is a serious offense. Although the seller does have a few legit graded cards and he/she may not know these are fake (but they would know where they got them and who from).


Link to fake auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320205240980&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011

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  #32  
Old 01-09-2008, 06:31 PM
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Posted By: JimB

(310) is West LA. Somebody should notify the local authorities and set up a sting. This guy should be put in prison.
JimB

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  #33  
Old 01-09-2008, 06:51 PM
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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

310 covers far more of an area than West Los Angeles which is a very small section of Los Angeles. 310 area code covers at least 20 different cities in LA County. The prefix 739 is for Beverly Hills. I just called the number and it sounds like a standard Verizon voice mail box.

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  #34  
Old 01-09-2008, 08:07 PM
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Posted By: Bobby Binder

I remember reading in a thread a while ago about a latino from the southern cal area doing this same thing and he got busted for it. Think he was located near a Lake....Elsinore maybe. Wonder if it is the same person same MO..

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  #35  
Old 01-09-2008, 08:54 PM
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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Here are two examples I made tonight, just for this post. It shows that slabs can easily be cracked cards/flips replaced and rejoined without little or no frosting. I didn't have an SGC slab available but it's pretty much the same.

IMO the problem is much worse than many think. As many know, altering to educate is what I have to offer the hobby. It's the stuff that's not (or ever will be) shown that can be scary.

If advanced doctoring of any sort is caught early enough countermeasures can be put into place. Ignoring or denying a problem without adjusting, reinventing or bringing in new ideas can be harmful. Just my 2 cents.






Kevin Saucier

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  #36  
Old 01-09-2008, 09:16 PM
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Posted By: marty quinn

also all of them do not have the psa hologram on the back, all the cert #'s check out also, psa needs to find the owner(s) with those cert #'s and start bringing these bums down. if not this will only get alot worse and many people will get burned. all of those people uploading pics for their registry sets are also unknowingly supplying these scum of the earth with all they need.


with that and ebay there would be a never ending supply for them, i would imagine the holders are not fake, but obviously the tabs are, all you need to do is buy a bunch of crappy 1980's stuff crack them out and use a legit holder......and guess what...sgc is easier to open, if careful enough almost impossible to detect without a very good examination of the holder....this is so very scary for the hobby....i hope all auction houses are aware of this.

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  #37  
Old 01-09-2008, 09:39 PM
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Posted By: marty quinn

kevin saucier- card detection i get.

but how will you even stop this with a legit holder and a perfection of the tab??

if you can do this so easily why can't someone else? maybe even better.

you say you can help, (great) what can one do to combat this?

what if they start using the legit slabs with spot on tabs and real cards, buy the psa,sgc 1's and restore them to 5-6's, plenty of money in the 5's and 6's to be made form the 1's!! unless you inspect every card that hits ebay and auctions you realy can't help enough to make an impact. most people including expierenced collectors on this forum will not be able to tell that 5 or 6 from a 1 that was restored if enough wear is left on the card, why- because it still is a legit card, and trying to spot restoration from a scan is well "very tough" if not impossible. i mean you yourself have to use black light sometimes and i am sure other devices to detect this..

please note kevin- i am not discounting what help you can provide,(any help is better than none)and what you have done is a servicve already, but these questions will be asked and will need to be addressed.....it will come down to knowing your seller and then relying on them knowing that what they have is legit....you said you added your 2 cents, i think we need the other 98.........holy cow this could get so disgusting..

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Old 01-09-2008, 09:49 PM
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Posted By: stefan

contacted FBI and they told me to wait, it has been since March of 2007.
these jerkoffs have been doing just that jerking me off, it is a shame i am 24 years old. i spent my live savings on this card and i was duped there was only one these cards on the PSA registry and i asked for scan of back which he provided. and i only got three 1988 random psa graded basketball cards. video recorded the whole opening of the package as i usually do of this type of material. and i have never been hoodwinked such as this, but id never the less been scammed. maybe i should contact local authorities as Federal has done nothing to my help.
if you don't know my name i am stefan wisinski, i won the 52 mantle rc card at the east coast national sports convention show. and i am the auction manager for H&S.
DON'T MEAN TO STEAL THE LIGHT BUT CALI PEOPLE ARE REAL SHADY!!!!!!!
EXCEPT FOR A FEW SOLID COLLECTORS!!!!

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Old 01-10-2008, 05:37 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: Paul Moss

That's a pretty broad stroke of the brush to paint the CA crowd as being mostly crooked. I guess that the statement could be made for any state where one has had bad experiences.

The reliance on the Feds and Postal Inspectors to actually do something about the matter is a longshot at best as experience has taught me that unless they have multiple complaints, the dollar amounts are 5 figures or greater, and enough rock sold evidence at hand, they are totally useless. I see that one of these complaints mentioned on the board has been ongoing since 3/07. Doesn't that clue anyone in that this does not seem to have been a priority with the Feds? Sure, a file was opened, BFD, that's probably as far the situation will go unless they receive a ton of complaints. Does anyone truly believe that squad cars will roll as agents kick in the front door of the perp. hours after the complaint is filed?

The general public is at the mercy of the scammers. The Feds don't bother unless the dollars are large, and to pursue the matter in civil court costs more than the amount lost. Attorneys want a five or ten grand retainer just to handle the matter, and even if successful, you have to collect. Good luck!

Craig's list? Craig's list? Are you kidding me? Anyone with a modicum of intelligence is aware that the site is nothing more than a total trash sale, whores offering their services, knock-off products, fakes, defective products, the occasional retail item being resold at too high a price by the unknowing and ignorant, as well as every scam in the book all to be offered in one place. It's a toxic dump that on the best of days, would make an EPA hazmat team shake in their boots. Are people really naiive enough to think that they have "discovered" an opportunity to make a killing by buying ultra-liquid cards at a bargain level by jumping on an advert at this site? Sorry, nothing personal, but you'll get no sympathy from me. Craigs List receives nothing in the way of a percentage, or fee of any kind, so frankly, I hold them blameless. Do you really believe that any sophisticated collector is going to sell valuable cards via this method? That's like meeting Leon behind the local 7-11 and buying from the trunk of his car. I just don't see this scenario becoming reality.

Ebay on the other hand should do FAR more in the policing of their site. They have a fiduciary interest in the item being sold, please spare me theie "We are only a sales venue by connecting buyer with seller", and as such have a far greater liability in regard to merchandise on their site. I can't tell you the number of times I have gone through their complaint process reporting bad, fake, and deceptive items only to have witnessed zero response and the lot running its course to be shoved down the throat of some unsuspecting buyer. It's to a point where I no longer bother.

Holders:

It's been four or five years since the Wiwag deal. What provisions and measures have ANY of the grading companies taken to ensure the security and authenticity of their product/service during this interim period? NONE (Unless you consider GAI's change of flip design. Whoop-de-freakin'-do). It is probably far more cost effective for all the companies to sweep the matter under the rug than to take appropriate steps to counter these problems that surface from time to time. I don't know. I don't have the answers and no one is paying me to come up with any. All I can do is the best I can by inspecting every holder that crosses my path as consignments come in from all parts of the country. I have only found one, an SGC card that had a couple of glossy areas on the edges of the black gasket and a frosty look on one of the seams. The card looked OK, I broke it out, resubbed, and it came back the same grade. Probably a repair from being dropped, but better safe than sorry.

Look, this sort of thing is nothing new, and common sense should always prevail. Better to pass on something that looks too good to be true and err on the side of caution. As for avoiding slabbed cards owing to these few events, Oh Puhleez! I read where someone got ecoli from eating a burger in Oregon. Does this mean I stop eating red meat? Paranoia is so unbecoming, caution should always be the rule regardless of whatever is unfolding in the marketplace.

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Old 01-10-2008, 07:22 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: Steve

I agree with Paul. Many times people get scammed when they think they are ripping an item from someone else and they are actually the ones getting ripped.

I am sorry that these people got ripped off but as Paul said, Common sense must prevail. No one I know is selling vintage like that for cents on the dollar!


Ebay itself is a cesspool of scammers and I won't buy anything from anyone unless I know them.


Steve


edited typo.

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  #41  
Old 01-10-2008, 08:42 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: PC

Kevin -- thanks for posting those. Frightening.

Some obvious (perhaps rhetorical) questions. Why is it so hard for the "big 3" to provide a tamper-proof holder? Is there a card friendly alternative to the inferior sonic welding used to seal these slabs? There must be a way to heat seal (i.e., melt the plastic together) along the edges without damaging the card. Can a "pocket" slab be produced that is open only at the top (with the card and the spacers slid in), and then a plug heat sealed at the top (and couldn't this could be done above the flip, a safe distance from the card)? Is this too much to ask?


And the registry scans are definitely a problem. The scans get stolen, and the serial numbers are there for the crooks to use on faked flips.

I participate in only one registry, with SGC, and I photoshopped a thin grey bar across the SGC serial numbers on all my scans.

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Old 01-10-2008, 08:55 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: leon

I hope this is on topic enough for this thread but I have to say that the ebay fraud is so rampant that I have all but given up reporting it. It could be several folks full time jobs. Also, ebay will not take action if a card is in one of the big 3 or 4 grading companies (depending if it's Monday yet) holders. So this whole episode of fraudulent holders, flips, cards etc....that are encapsulated can NOT be reported as fraud. Yikes....It looks like the days of buying a card that is professionally graded, sight unseen, are almost over (if not completely over). Personally I very rarely buy a card sight unseen unless it's from someone I really trust. Most on this board fit that description...but few on ebay do....regards

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Old 01-10-2008, 09:09 AM
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Posted By: scott levy

Gents,

This is both scary and upsetting. I supposed that I really was naive to not know it was going on in the first place, but it's really an eye opener to see just how easily the switch can occur!

I know this is kind of obvious....but if you paid with a credit card, have you tried to get the card company to reverse the charge? I know from experience that amex has been very helpful to me and my dad in dealing with fraudulent purchases.

Anyway, I wish the best to you both and hope that you're able to really nail the 'bad guy' even though I know it won't be easy.

-SGL

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  #44  
Old 01-10-2008, 09:10 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: boxingcardman

"Craig's list? Craig's list? Are you kidding me? Anyone with a modicum of intelligence is aware that the site is nothing more than a total trash sale, whores offering their services, knock-off products, fakes, defective products, the occasional retail item being resold at too high a price by the unknowing and ignorant, as well as every scam in the book all to be offered in one place. It's a toxic dump that on the best of days, would make an EPA hazmat team shake in their boots. Are people really naiive enough to think that they have "discovered" an opportunity to make a killing by buying ultra-liquid cards at a bargain level by jumping on an advert at this site? Sorry, nothing personal, but you'll get no sympathy from me. Craigs List receives nothing in the way of a percentage, or fee of any kind, so frankly, I hold them blameless. Do you really believe that any sophisticated collector is going to sell valuable cards via this method? That's like meeting Leon behind the local 7-11 and buying from the trunk of his car. I just don't see this scenario becoming reality."

--I tend to agree on the issue of too good to be true listings. In this day and age no one sells known slabbed rarities over an anonymous forum like that. Sorry, just does not happen. I would never buy something from an off-the-radar channel unless I could see the items in person first. And even then, the transaction has all the feel of a drug deal and you could get held up and mugged, so some back alley meeting isn't all that prudent.

The slabbers can do a better job; Beckett's holder doesn't seem to be anywhere near as susceptible to tampering, so the technology is there. However, you have to ask about cost. If the process was more secure it would probably cost more. Would you be willing to double the cost of holdering cards in return for a more secure holder and process?

What scares me is the possibility of organized crime getting into this field. This scam feels much better organized than the usual a-hole selling laser copies on ebay but it could be so much worse. With the money involved how long will it be before one of the many "mafias" we have (LCN, Russian, Armenian, etc.) figures out that there is great money here with not much risk? The Feds don't seem to care and state's AG offices are useless as well since most of the salient charges are Federal mail fraud or wire fraud.

Perhaps we will see a future where only established, known dealers or auctioneers get business on higher end cards in slabs, or where actually touching the cards before you buy them (say at card shows) becomes popular again. On the former, I hope not.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Old 01-10-2008, 09:21 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: Red

"It looks like the days of buying a card that is professionally graded, sight unseen, are almost over (if not completely over)."

If you're buying in this manner from a legit seller that you have complete confidence in then there's no issue because you'll be able to return a card you don't like that was purchased this way.

If you're buying this way from a scammer there's a good reason you won't get a good look at the cards before you buy them, and no chance you'll have any luck trying to return them.

The same goes for raw cards, PSA, SGC, stamps, coins, Rolexes, and Beanie babies.

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Old 01-10-2008, 09:38 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: Red

"I know this is kind of obvious....but if you paid with a credit card, have you tried to get the card company to reverse the charge? I know from experience that amex has been very helpful to me and my dad in dealing with fraudulent purchases."

Part of the problem is that many people know they're taking foolish chances on questionable deals because they know their credit card company will back them up if something goes wrong. Very few real low-level scammers like you'll encounter in most of these deals will be setup to accept credit cards themselves. They'll usually be setup with PAYPAL and you'll buy knowing that PAYPAL or your credit card company will back you up.

The good thing is that you will get your money back. The bad thing is that the scammer was probably smart enough to take his money and run. So who loses out? Your credit card company or PAYPAL. The scammer just sets up another account and gets the next guy.

Just think about how many fewer scams would be able to be pulled off if you had to go into a questionable deal knowing you had to completely trust the seller and have no hope at all of getting your money back if something goes wrong. You would think a little more, ask a few more questions, and quicker walk away from deals that sound too good to be true.

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Old 01-10-2008, 10:22 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: barrysloate

Because the marketplace is so polluted with scammers it might not be a bad idea to do as much, if not all business, with people you know or who have been selling on ebay consistently and for a long period of time. With Craig's list, I would guess everyone is a one shot seller.

Just the Net54 community alone gives collectors access to just about every collectible imaginable, and I would say with about 99% safety. It's better to pay pretty close to retail from someone you trust than to try to get a bargain from a stranger, because given enough transactions, one of those strangers may very well rip you off. It's not worth the aggravation, and even I limit my buying to a small pool of sellers.

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Old 01-10-2008, 10:25 AM
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Default PSA counterfeit cards!!! Beware

Posted By: Eric

"301 is the area code for Maryland, not 310".


Thanks Brad. That's my good old dyslexia kicking in. Gotta love it.

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Old 01-10-2008, 12:48 PM
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Posted By: Steve

Could PSA get a more secure holder? Why should they? If they do that, they lose out on all the re-subs. That is why we have a 'tamper - evident holder.



Steve


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Old 01-10-2008, 12:58 PM
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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

The toughest part of forging a flip is getting unique bar codes. For kicks, I thought I would line these up to show they were cloned. Not quality work IMO but concerning. I know...it doesn't mean much.

Some are blury only because they were resized so they would all match.







Kevin


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