NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 05-08-2019, 12:59 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,865
Default

Well, you force me to a musical interlude, Peter Paul and Mary written by Rev. Gary Davis.

You read about Samson, you read about his birth
He was the strongest man that ever lived on Earth.
One day old Samson was walking alone
He looked down on the ground and he saw an old jaw-bone.
He lifted up that jaw-bone and he swung it over his head,
and when he got to moving ten thousand was dead.

If I had my way,
If I had my way in this wicked world,
If I had my way I would tear this building down.
__________________
My avatar is a painting by my son, a recent art school graduate.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:08 PM
brianp-beme's Avatar
brianp-beme brianp-beme is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
At the end of the day, we all have different moral compasses....some are just more wonky than others. Glad to know that some people think that just because something is my "job" means I can justify it, no matter how unethical it is. Jeez.

Here's a card for those tired of looking at words.
Looks like Joltin' Joe needs a little trip to the Card Doctor. Or according to my new phraseology, perhaps to the 'Card Therapist' to return it to its more pristine original condition.

Brian
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:18 PM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 5,604
Default

To be clear, some folks may consider me a card, but I am not a card doctor, merely a doctor with cards.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - NEARLY PQ AND ALMOST OLD ENOUGH TO BE ON A PREWAR CARD, BUT.........

MY AVATAR IS A GUY NAMED BURKETT TO WHOM I AM NOT RELATED, WHO IS OLD ENOUGH.


518/1000 Monster Number

Over*760* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-19.
Over 550 sales with satisfied Board members served.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:25 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
To be clear, some folks may consider me a card, but I am not a card doctor, merely a doctor with cards.
The Eddie Murray rookie you sold me, to the contrary, was trimmed, recolored, pressed, bleached, and rebacked. Nice conservation work!
__________________
My avatar is a painting by my son, a recent art school graduate.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:26 PM
brianp-beme's Avatar
brianp-beme brianp-beme is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
To be clear, some folks may consider me a card, but I am not a card doctor, merely a doctor with cards.
Scalpel!

Brian
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:37 PM
bounce bounce is offline
DR
David R@tliff
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 234
Default

"Evidence of alteration can be determined in two different ways; either in technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator, or when digital content asserts beyond a reasonable doubt that an alteration took place (i.e. before and after photos of trimming, recoloring, etc)."

Couple things here.

First, where does "restoration" fit within these tenets? Is it conservation, alteration, or something else all together?

A recent example, which was discussed/debated here pretty thoroughly. Made it into a TPG case (more on that below).


Second, regarding alteration, so long as it's "disclosed" and "transparent", then it can be sold. Again using the Wagner as the example, I believe that card fits squarely in the "altered" tenet - recoloring, addition of paper, etc.

There was and is HUGE disagreement on the "minimum" level of disclosure that should be required, or what exactly constitutes "transparent". I know the Wagner was not a PWCC auction, but from a hobby standpoint I was certainly arguing that the description there was nowhere near a reasonable standard of "minimum" or "transparent". However, there were plenty of others that felt it was sufficient. Does that mean you also need a tenet to define what exactly is "transparent"?

Third, "technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator...", and "beyond a reasonable doubt..." are basically the easy way out of saying that if it got into the TPG case it's fine, even if the TPG missed something.

There are plenty of recent threads around Lebron blacks, Harper Heritage autos, Trouts, etc. that clearly demonstrate work was done to the cards. Those cards have been altered, plain and simple, and it doesn't matter that the TPG put a number grade on them - they missed it. Using "technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator..." is essentially just saying "NOT IT" when it comes to any enforcement against altered cards.

In conjunction with that, putting together a tenet that includes courtroom language shortly thereafter effectively invalidates the foundation of the tenet, if you ask me.

I do think I infer from the tenets a desire to "deal with facts", which I agree with. However, I believe these tenets is just leaving the door open to say "prove it beyond a reasonable doubt...", and just punts that decision to each market participant to make their own judgment. That's fine, but that's honestly where we kind of already are and have been. So why do I need tenets to tell me that?

Finally - the PWCC tenets are all well and good, but until the TPGs get together and establish consistent and/or similar/identical assessments of what constitutes alteration, restoration and conservation - including how those things are noted on the flips - it's all just another in a long line of opinions that the TPGs and auction houses hide behind when they make decisions that aren't necessarily in the best interest of the hobby or "transparency".

Rant over...get back to your legal mumbo jumbo.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:44 PM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 5,604
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
The Eddie Murray rookie you sold me, to the contrary, was trimmed, recolored, pressed, bleached, and rebacked. Nice conservation work!
Au contraire. I didnít purchase the card in a PWCC auction.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - NEARLY PQ AND ALMOST OLD ENOUGH TO BE ON A PREWAR CARD, BUT.........

MY AVATAR IS A GUY NAMED BURKETT TO WHOM I AM NOT RELATED, WHO IS OLD ENOUGH.


518/1000 Monster Number

Over*760* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-19.
Over 550 sales with satisfied Board members served.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:56 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
Au contraire. I didnít purchase the card in a PWCC auction.
You wouldn't know good doctoring if you saw it.
__________________
My avatar is a painting by my son, a recent art school graduate.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 05-08-2019, 02:16 PM
Rooftop Rooftop is offline
member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3
Default

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1292005

Much better details in this thread
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:05 PM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Richmond, TX
Posts: 4,993
Default Chirp, chirp!

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dare
Disturb the sound of silence

There are 3 parties involved here - the doctor/consigner (I'll assume they're one in the same), PSA and PWCC. PWCC is the only party that's being called out here. I keep asking the same question, but I only hear crickets. Is it ethical to do business with a company that KNOWINGLY grades doctored cards?
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:16 PM
mq711 mq711 is offline
Mel Quatt.lebaum
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 34
Default

I would think that a high end seller such as PWCC would be a strong advocate against the very practice they are spearheading. Their clients/investors have made purchases based on various factors including high end/low pop cards. When a well centered vintage psa5.5 can be "conserved" into a 8.5, the previous investors of psa8.5s are cheated out of value by the same company they made their purchase from; just doesn't seem fair or a good practice of keeping your customers happy.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:20 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 3,887
Default

Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:24 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

But all kidding, and my suspicious nature aside, I think the problem is not corruption but that the doctors are ahead of the graders particularly the junior ones.
__________________
My avatar is a painting by my son, a recent art school graduate.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:26 PM
AustinMike AustinMike is offline
Michael
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 316
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dare
Disturb the sound of silence
Great song by S & G, but I really like the way Disturbed does it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
There are 3 parties involved here - the doctor/consigner (I'll assume they're one in the same), PSA and PWCC. PWCC is the only party that's being called out here. I keep asking the same question, but I only hear crickets. Is it ethical to do business with a company that KNOWINGLY grades doctored cards?
I always thought PSA graded "doctored" cards because they had some incompetent graders. What evidence do you have that it is the policy of PSA to "KNOWINGLY" assign a number grade to "doctored" cards? (It's okay to grade "doctored" cards as long as you "grade" them as altered.)

PWCC is being singled out because they put forth the idiotic definition of "conservation."
__________________
M.!.c.h.@.3.L. . H.v.n.T

Last edited by AustinMike; 05-08-2019 at 03:28 PM. Reason: added graded between PSA and "doctored"
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:28 PM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Richmond, TX
Posts: 4,993
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I think the problem is not corruption but that the doctors are ahead of the graders particularly the junior ones.
I would like to think that the junior graders are not grading the '52 Mantles and other high end cards...but with PSA you never know.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:28 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 3,887
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

But all kidding, and my suspicious nature aside, I think the problem is not corruption but that the doctors are ahead of the graders particularly the junior ones.
Agreed. I believe this is true in all authentication areas, probably most obviously in autograph authentication. I think PSA tries hard to identify doctored cards (as does SGC and Beckett) with less than perfect results.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:31 PM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Richmond, TX
Posts: 4,993
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinMike View Post
What evidence do you have that it is the policy of PSA to "KNOWINGLY" assign a number grade to "doctored" cards?
Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:35 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 3,887
Default

Iíve never said anything about PWCC. That is a separate conversation.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:37 PM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Richmond, TX
Posts: 4,993
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
I think PSA tries hard to identify doctored cards (as does SGC and Beckett) with less than perfect results.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, one of the very first things I educated myself on when I got into card collecting was how to distinguish between a factory cut and a non-factory cut. It's really not that hard. Look at the 3 cards in post #42. They all appear to be trimmed. How does PSA not catch a high end card that has been trimmed? Wouldn't a higher end card get more scrutiny? I don't fault them for letting "cleaned cards" slip by where there is not evidence left behind. You can't acknowledge what you can't see/smell. But how does a 'professional grader" not know how to determine a trimmed card?

Either way, you're still ignoring the issue. KNOWINGLY or not, why would you do business with a company that can't do what you're paying them to do?
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:55 PM
conor912's Avatar
conor912 conor912 is offline
C0nor D0na.hue
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
why would you do business with a company that can't do what you're paying them to do?
I think part of the rub is that PSA's customers are not the card buyers, they're the card sellers - and PSA does exactly what the sellers pay for....grade and slab the card. Buyers have been led to believe that TPGs have they're best interests in mind, when that runs counter to the business model.
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:00 PM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post

Either way, you're still ignoring the issue. KNOWINGLY or not, why would you do business with a company that can't do what you're paying them to do?
Exhibits A-C as to why I'm doing business with PSA:







I paid about 11K total for these three cards. Grading fees were less than $100. What are they worth now?
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:04 PM
Rooftop Rooftop is offline
member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?
Why would PWCC continue to accept consignor's cards that are known trimmers?
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:09 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 3,887
Default

Connor: The people who buy PSA graded cards probably also submit cards to PSA. Their business model should be to grade as accurately as possible. PSA is successful because of their registry which is collectors.Their business model cannot be auction house or dealer centric; it must be collector centric.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:15 PM
AustinMike AustinMike is offline
Michael
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 316
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?
Hmm, nice deflection! So, you have no evidence to back up your claim.

I've never claimed PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction. As I said earlier, I think their definition of "conservation" is atrocious. And I'll add, I think that by putting forth the definition of "conservation" that they did, they're not doing PWCC or the collecting community any favors.
__________________
M.!.c.h.@.3.L. . H.v.n.T
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:28 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?
The WWG 7 DiMaggio. The card Brent bought himself out of REA as a 4, as he acknowledged.
__________________
My avatar is a painting by my son, a recent art school graduate.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-08-2019 at 04:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:51 PM
conor912's Avatar
conor912 conor912 is offline
C0nor D0na.hue
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Connor: The people who buy PSA graded cards probably also submit cards to PSA. Their business model should be to grade as accurately as possible. PSA is successful because of their registry which is collectors.Their business model cannot be auction house or dealer centric; it must be collector centric.
I hear what you're saying, but I guess I would argue that the only reason to ever grade anything is because it will be sold, eventually. Maybe there are a few outliers who grade strictly for one asinine reason or another like set uniformity or whatever, but the lion's share of people who submit do so for re-sale purposes, whether it be in their lifetime or not.
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:56 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 3,887
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
I hear what you're saying, but I guess I would argue that the only reason to ever grade anything is because it will be sold, eventually. Maybe there are a few outliers who grade strictly for one asinine reason or another like set uniformity or whatever, but the lion's share of people who submit do so for re-sale purposes, whether it be in their lifetime or not.
Look at the top registry sets. Many have been together for decades. All cards will eventually be resold, but that wasnít the reason they were graded.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:57 PM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Richmond, TX
Posts: 4,993
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Exhibits A-C as to why I'm doing business with PSA:







I paid about 11K total for these three cards. Grading fees were less than $100. What are they worth now?
Post #42 - Exhibits A-C why I don't do business with PSA.

You guys are too funny. None of this will impact PWCCs business in the least little bit. If y'all really cared about all these doctored cards (and you really don't, you just want to complain), you would go after the TPGs that are grading this garbage. But, instead, your efforts are focused on the wrong party involved. Nothing changes until you place blame where it properly belongs.

PWCC- Profiting While Collectors Complain.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:01 PM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 3,553
Default

PSA has tremendous liability in this issue for their failure to detect these alterations, because of their Grade Guarantee. They don't really need to say anything about Brent's tenets because they run counter to PSA's longstanding grading practice. Many of the things Brent calls "conservation" is clearly defined in PSA's grading rules as Alteration; the rub is that they're not nearly as good at detecting them as they claim they are. Brent is putting this out there because he bears little to no risk; PSA is on the hook for doctored cards.

In the submission with the Mantle PSA 4.5, which was presumably submitted by Brent based on the number of cards that were immediately resold by PWCC, 29 of the cards were returned ungraded. Was it for Altered, MinSize, min grade? We don't know. Just that the certs aren't there for some reason. That's out of 79 cards submitted. So it's quite possible that PSA caught 29 of 79 with some type of alteration. That's a huge number. Should they have caught more in the same order? Maybe. Should they tell the submitter: you're dead to us! ? I don't know the answer to that. Were these directly submitted by PWCC or are some owned by PWCC? We don't know that either.

Someone on Blowout pointed out when you submit cards, you certify that the cards you're submitting are unaltered in the first place. Can they use this to invalidate claims against their Grade Guarantee against submitters that intentionally submit trimmed and altered cards? Guess we'll find out.
__________________
--
Current Want to Buy/Trade for List:
1930s Phoebe Phelps Caramel Pennant of Georgia Tech
1910 Painted handkerchief of GA Tech pennant girl by F. Earl Christy sold by Atlanta Toy Museum on eBay circa 2000.
COMC store: https://www.comc.com/Users/mjohnatgt,sh,i100
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:05 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,865
Default

I have certainly heard in the past that PSA banned people from submitting, but as has been pointed out that's a pretty simple workaround.

It's certainly easier to hide, in general, in a world where so many sales are consignments to auction houses and major ebay sellers.

Way back in the day, everyone knew who the card doctors were, they were the guys buying centered EX and EX MT cards at shows, who at the next show would have the same cards in 8s and 9s.

Now they're buying online under anonymous IDs, and selling through third parties.
__________________
My avatar is a painting by my son, a recent art school graduate.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-08-2019 at 05:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:08 PM
conor912's Avatar
conor912 conor912 is offline
C0nor D0na.hue
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Look at the top registry sets. Many have been together for decades. All cards will eventually be resold, but that wasnít the reason they were graded.
See my comment about other asinine reasons
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:14 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 3,887
Default

Pretty simple solution to all this, if you donít like the way PWCC does business donít deal with them. I was unhappy with a card I bought on EBay several months back. I returned it to PWCC, got a refund, and will not deal with them again. Everyone needs to decide for themselves who they choose to deal with.
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 05-08-2019, 06:56 PM
BLongley's Avatar
BLongley BLongley is offline
Brian
Brian Long.ley
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: NJ
Posts: 420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?
David, as mentioned earlier you may want to take a look at Blowout Forums. The person in charge of Business Development for PWCC is Jesse Craig... who certainly may be innocent, but he worked for one of the biggest trimmers in the hobby who is a convicted felon and just happened to use PWCC to sell many of his doctored cards... perhaps PWCC didnít know they were doctored but we are talking A LOT of cards sold by him with an old connection of his working at PWCC... see details below... and there are pages and pages of examples if you care to research.

Personally Iím done with PWCC and have spent tens of thousands with them over the years...

Preface: There is a lot in this thread. I'd suggest finding some time to get a bowl of popcorn, read though it all, and then comment if you wish. I ask that you please do not just skim though through this thread and then write an uninformed reply, as this will just add confusion to an already complex thread. Not 100% of the content in this thread is germane to the allegations in the title, however I feel that most will appreciate the historical context, either as a refresher or to learn about this company for the first time.

Without further ado, here is Will Jaimet:

William Thom Jaimet
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100014391516111
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/will-jaimet-4b851915
Heroes of Sport/Jaimet's Personal Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/media


Note who he is following on Facebook:
1. Kevin Burge


2. Vinny Ho


3. Keith Koenig





Will Jaimet has been involved in the sports cards and memorabilia industry from a very young age, as his father, Scott Jaimet AKA Thom Jaimet, used to run Oregon Trail Auctions in the 90s-00s before it was bought out by Mastro West. From all that I have read online, he seems to have been a well respected member of the hobby before his passing in late 2009. Will's presence in the hobby began sometime in the early to mid-2000s when he started selling mostly graded cards though his company Rose City Sports on eBay using the accounts ROSE-CITY-SPORTS and ROSE-CITY-SPORTS-2. Both those user IDs have long since been changed, but some of his listings can be found in the Worthpoint link below. He mostly sold low pop. high-grade cards (PSA 10, BGS 9.5-10) and even had an article written about his company for selling the first SGC 98 Jordan RC.

ROSE-CITY-SPORTS: https://www.worthpoint.com/inventory...s%22&category=

Jordan SGC 98 article: https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...n-rookie-sold/

In 2009 he had his first child, which he said raised his level of responsibility, so he decided to follow in the footsteps of his father and create an auction house by the name of Heroes of Sport. Their first and only auction took place November 18th-December 1st of that year.

Source: http://www.net54baseball.com/archive...?t-115242.html

In the following years, 2010 through 2012 to be exact, he continued to sell on Ebay and via the Heroes of Sport website, but he never held another Heroes of Sport auction. His reasoning is below:


Source: http://www.sportscardmagazine.net/20...r-will-jaimet/

Instead, as indicated in the except above, he began to prepare (poorly as it would turn out) to launch a repack product by the same name of his auction house, Heroes of Sport. His brand was legitimized by advertising, such as taking out a full page ad on the back cover of Beckett and traveling around the card media circuit for interviews, in addition to the legitimization from the brand he had created running the Heroes of Sport catalog auction.

He believed that he had the knowledge to buy cards enough below market value to deliver a valuable product to his customers:



However the legitimacy of both Jaimet and HoS was short-lived, as in late 2012, Boomo announced via FCB that he would be premiering HoS's first product on boomosbreaks. The lengthy FCB thread is below:

https://www.freedomcardboard.com/for...t-boomosbreaks

To make many long stories short, there was a bunch of petty drama both on FCB and BO that is implicit in choosing to use Boomo as a means of promoting your product. However, there were some clear conclusions to be drawn as the product started to appear through more legitimate and universally-respected hobby distribution channels. First, the ROI was abysmal. While the great hits were great, everything else was fairly worthless. This is discussed in a lengthy BO thread linked below titled "$500 boxes producing $50 in cards? How about $700 box producing a $20 card?":

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...ghlight=jaimet

Second, there was a large controversy with the items in later boxes of the product being purchased during the products run. In other words, the product was not completely packed out (or even purchased) before its launch. This, compounded by the fact that Jaimet did not (and still doesn't) make checklists for his product nor even create a basic sell sheet, was seen as highly concerning in the eyes of most. Tonedef got this one correct:
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 05-08-2019, 07:09 PM
BLongley's Avatar
BLongley BLongley is offline
Brian
Brian Long.ley
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: NJ
Posts: 420
Default Part 2

In 2015, it is unknown what exactly Jaimet and HoS were up to. He/They were trimming cards by this point (more on that later), but it is unknown what other business ventures they were engaged in.

Then, in very late 2015, Heroes made its return:


Heroes of Sports "The Truth" was sold in late 2015 though early 2016, and the only way I can interpret the evidence that I am about to present is that it was a massive scam. Feel free to disagree, but nothing below adds up to a legitimate product being issued.

The product was 100 cases and was exclusively sold through BrosBreaks. Per Jaimet, it sold out the day before a concluding "draft" that seems comparable to the convoluted HoS points auctions from 2013 that I will not explain in this thread. Here is a tweet from Jaimet linking to the BreakersBro page:


Source: https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...64226331734017

Here is the BreakersBro page. Note the name "Jesse" and the linked Facebook group:


https://breakers.tv/brosbreaks

Here is the private Facebook group. As stated, this breaking group existed solely to break HoS "The Truth" and nothing else:

Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1641164426138784/

This is who is running the group (note that his name is Jesse):

https://www.facebook.com/jesse.craig.507

His LinkedIn:


Source: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thecraiggrouppdx

He is/was the co-owner of HoS:


So this is a little bit suspect. The former, publicly unknown, co-owner named Jesse Craig (who interestingly enough now holds a high-level job at PWCC) created a breaking company to exclusively break 100% of a HoS product that has no checklist and will be broken entirely random-draft style. Does that seem a little bit suspect? If HoS wanted to break its own product why not just do that? Because they were running an elaborate fraud?

Jaimet posted some of the high-end hits from HoS "The Truth" on its Twitter page. Here's an example:



The problem is that about 90% of these cards posted do not appear to have been legitimately pulled/drafted to customers. Remember the title of this thread about Jaimet being a large PWCC consigner? That will be proven later, but for now, let's just analyze the hits from this product that were posted on Twitter. Of the last 25 hits from "The Truth" posted on Twitter, 22/25 were sold through PWCC directly after they were posted, 1 sold through Probstein, and 2 did not immediately come up for auction again. There are many more, but 25 seems to be a large enough sample to get the picture. The links are below:

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...97668879564800
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...dan-1797628882
PROBSTEIN

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...97361130844160
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1206869

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...97068112609281
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212696

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...96871047380992
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212476

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...96557401571328
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1206728

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...96200441126912
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ait-1799547343

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...95966281527296
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1207337

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...77735063900161
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1206805

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...38887022223360
DOES NOT APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN RESOLD

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...38730310467584
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1216707

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...36128722087941
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1217491

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...35845141000192
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1217069

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...35649485074432
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1204141

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...31161672069120
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1208019

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30817772728320
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212520

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30567855091713
DOES NOT APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN RESOLD

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30457775575040
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1211813

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30309704122368
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212564

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30146574995456
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1206645

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...29611918684160
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1211544

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...26788371988480
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212647

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...26608935469058
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1205491

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...26225550917636
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212815

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...25955039244288
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1213132

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...25593486049281
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212532

Why would 90% of the best hits be sold through PWCC immediately after they were pulled? The only logical conclusion is that BrosBreaks was created only to execute a fraud between HoS and Craig. If the product "sold out" there is no way for them to have legitimately retained 90% of the best hits. And I don't believe that one legitimate buyer purchased some 90 cases of the product.




After this debacle, Jaimet's trimming side hustle was in full force through 2016, but everything came to a halt at the end November 2018 when Jaimet was arrested for the following:



There is A LOT to this criminal case, and I'm just going to provide a summary here. If you are interested in reading through it yourself, use the link and instructions provided below to do so:

https://webportal.courts.oregon.gov/...e/Dashboard/29

Instructions: Enter "Jaimet, Will" in field and retype characters. Click on case 16CR75219. Do not use back button. Many fields are cut off on the website, so copy/paste may be necessary to read everything.

The short run down is the following: On 11/28/16, he was arraigned on the charges above. On 11/29/16 he posted $3k bail. On 12/01/16 his release was revoked, his $3k was forfeited, and his bail was upped to $500k. He was given a no contact order with his wife and kids on this date. At a 12/23/2016 court appearance he was summarily convicted of obstruction for cursing at the judge in court. Snapshot of that below. At a 01/18/2017 court appearance he was again summarily convicted of obstruction for cursing at the judge in court. On 03/03/2017, he plead guilty to the felony weapons charge and the other charges were dismissed. He was given time served plus 3 years probation. Per the website, he twice violated the terms of his probation. He is still on unsupervised felony probation as of today.

12/23/2016:


01/18/2017:


Again, look over everything yourself if you want the grittier details. There's some stuff that just isn't getting posted here.



A few months later, Jaimet was back to buying cards to trim, but his days of HoS products were evidently not yet over.



In early 2019, with all of Jaimet's LLCs expired for the umpteenth time and the HoS website lost to another entity, Jaimet fired up the HoS Twitter account again to start pumping his new HoS products. He distributed them to at least four breakers (Blowout Cards, Cardsmiths Breaks, Grand Slam Collectibles, and Layton Sports Cards). Yet again, there is no checklist and no sell sheet. I was amused to see that Grand Slam was selling the product based off of what was pulled from HoS products 4-5 years go. Simply comical.




It's hard to assess if a card is trimmed from a group break video, but here's a card that was pulled from 2019 HoS that is unquestionably trimmed:

Pre: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...lub-1887207185
Post: https://twitter.com/cardsmithsbreak/...02598518960128
Break video: https://youtu.be/xp5xHzgsjZM?t=414


I'm going to assert that this card from 2019 HoS is trimmed seeing as it went from a GMA 8.5 to a PSA 10. If anyone knows who has it, we can be 100% certain.

Pre: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...kie-1781925822
Break (Watch closely to see serial number is 1346/2011): https://youtu.be/5JhrnWW4yzY?t=194





This card is suspect at best. I see no corner damage on the card pulled from HoS.

Pre: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ions-405237333
Break: https://youtu.be/OyEH3j9-CMU



Lastly, Will Jaimet's Ebay account qut9 (proof below on how we can be certain that it is his account) purchased dozens of raw/BGS 9 Topps flagship color in early 2018. Many have visible flaws. Yet there are dozens of these cards that have never shown up for sale before in his 2019 product. I am certain most if not all are trimmed. Here's a few examples of what I'm talking about:







Here are the flagship color cards he bought. Ctrl+f for q***u on these feedback pages. If you are so inclined, feel free to copy the listing title over to Worthpoint to check the condition of these cards out. Most clearly are not Gem Mint:

https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...0&mPg=4&page=2
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...0&mPg=7&page=3
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...&mPg=25&page=2
https://web.archive.org/web/20190417...mPg=52&page=52
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://web.archive.org/web/20190417...mPg=44&page=14








LINKING WILL JAIMET TO QUT9:


At this point, if you didn't come here from one of the sports threads showing trimmed cards sold via PWCC from Ebay user qut9, go check those out:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1288385

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1288384

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1288386

If you did, here are 5 points of proof that qut9 is Will Jaimet. #6 would be that his account went dead while he was dealing with his criminal case, but I won't prove that below.

1. qut9 is Located near Vancouver, Washington, but not in the state of Washington.

The name on qut9's account is Vancouver Card Company, which is 100% fictitious. No such LLC exists in Washington or Oregon, nor does Google return anything. Here is a BO post about that user ID:


Source: https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...highlight=qut9

Note the 97... zip. That has to be an Oregon address, not one in Washington. Jaimet is in the Tigard/Lake Oswego area, which has a 97... zip code.


2. A Card qut9 purchased appears in a 2019 HoS product.


Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20190416...rchInterval=30

Break: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7FP...&list=WL&t=790




3. An unnamed, reliable source puts trimmed Jeter qut9 purchased in Will Jaimet's possession.

Dan called the following card out as trimmed here:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...86&postcount=2

Here is the buyer feedback for the raw sale of that card (note exact title match):


Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20190406...824572&page=55

A reliable source puts this card in Will Jaimet's possession.


4. In 2013, qut9 purchased card inserted in HoS.


Link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...dard-464583030


Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20190420...&mPg=14&page=7


5. In 2013, qut9 purchased card inserted in HoS.


Link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...nte-1617130819


Link: https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...&mPg=14&page=6
Worthpoint: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...mber-423415532


This card might be trimmed, but I am unconvinced as I really don't like the raw seller's pictures due to their tendency to magnify damage. You decide.




POINTS TO TAKE AWAY FROM THIS THREAD:

1. Do NOT purchase any Heroes of Sports products.

2. Buyer beware when purchasing cards from fly-by-night repack/card companies.

3. If a modern graded (PSA, BGS, or SGC) card's first sale was through PWCC, I'd say there is approximately a 50% chance it is trimmed. Use the PWCC Auction history to verify a card has never sold though PWCC in addition to Worthpoint to look for evidence of trimming. Additional threads in the works will further substantiate this statistic.

4. It greatly concerns me that Jesse Craig is employed by PWCC considering his involvement with HoS and relationship with Jaimet.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 05-08-2019, 07:17 PM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Richmond, TX
Posts: 4,993
Default

Brian, thanks for taking the time to author the posts. It looks like you put a lot of effort into it. I won't have a chance to look at it tonight, but I will read it in the morning. If you took the time to write it, I'll take the time to read it.
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 05-08-2019, 07:18 PM
BLongley's Avatar
BLongley BLongley is offline
Brian
Brian Long.ley
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: NJ
Posts: 420
Default

And apparently the links donít work when they get copied over, so if anyone does want to look, here is the link to the page which should work...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...ht=Jesse+Craig
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 05-08-2019, 07:29 PM
vintagebaseballcardguy's Avatar
vintagebaseballcardguy vintagebaseballcardguy is offline
R0b3rt Ch!ld3rs
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,876
Default

Happier than ever that I collect 2s and 3s or worse that show obvious signs of wear.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 05-08-2019, 07:58 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
To be clear, some folks may consider me a card, but I am not a card doctor, merely a doctor with cards.

You still should be dealt with accordingly
__________________
SIGNED 1952 Topps
381/407


"Trolling Ebay right now" ©
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:51 PM
Kenny Cole Kenny Cole is offline
Kenny Cole
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Norman, OK
Posts: 1,041
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Pretty simple solution to all this, if you donít like the way PWCC does business donít deal with them. I was unhappy with a card I bought on EBay several months back. I returned it to PWCC, got a refund, and will not deal with them again. Everyone needs to decide for themselves who they choose to deal with.
This.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:32 PM
CobbSpikedMe's Avatar
CobbSpikedMe CobbSpikedMe is offline
Andy H.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belle Mead, NJ
Posts: 1,175
Default

Why do you need to define Alteration vs. Conservation unless you are planning on knowingly selling altered (er conserved) cards and need to justify it to the hobby. This means you know you're wrong but are trying to pull one over on everyone.
__________________
I'm always looking for t206's with purple numbers stamped on the back like the one in my avatar.

The Great T206 Back Stamp Project: Click Here
My Online Trading Site: Click Here
Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com
My Humble Blog: Click Here
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 05-09-2019, 07:30 AM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is online now
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 8,628
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
PSA has tremendous liability in this issue for their failure to detect these alterations, because of their Grade Guarantee. They don't really need to say anything about Brent's tenets because they run counter to PSA's longstanding grading practice. Many of the things Brent calls "conservation" is clearly defined in PSA's grading rules as Alteration; the rub is that they're not nearly as good at detecting them as they claim they are. Brent is putting this out there because he bears little to no risk; PSA is on the hook for doctored cards.

In the submission with the Mantle PSA 4.5, which was presumably submitted by Brent based on the number of cards that were immediately resold by PWCC, 29 of the cards were returned ungraded. Was it for Altered, MinSize, min grade? We don't know. Just that the certs aren't there for some reason. That's out of 79 cards submitted. So it's quite possible that PSA caught 29 of 79 with some type of alteration. That's a huge number. Should they have caught more in the same order? Maybe. Should they tell the submitter: you're dead to us! ? I don't know the answer to that. Were these directly submitted by PWCC or are some owned by PWCC? We don't know that either.

Someone on Blowout pointed out when you submit cards, you certify that the cards you're submitting are unaltered in the first place. Can they use this to invalidate claims against their Grade Guarantee against submitters that intentionally submit trimmed and altered cards? Guess we'll find out.
Well...if our cards are no longer "cards" now they are "ASSets"...there has to be some form of regulation/control/accountability from all parties involved in the supply chain.
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 05-09-2019, 09:02 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Pretty simple solution to all this, if you don’t like the way PWCC does business don’t deal with them. I was unhappy with a card I bought on EBay several months back. I returned it to PWCC, got a refund, and will not deal with them again. Everyone needs to decide for themselves who they choose to deal with.
It depends how you define "all this." If you define it as the problem of altered cards being slabbed, that problem is pervasive and the solution if there is one is going to involve law enforcement coming down on card doctors who for decades now have just mocked the hobby and become rich in the process, and the TPGs especially PSA improving their detection methods.
__________________
My avatar is a painting by my son, a recent art school graduate.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-09-2019 at 09:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 05-09-2019, 09:33 AM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 3,887
Default

Extraneous words on my part. If you delete "to all this" from my post my thought remains as intended.

Last edited by oldjudge; 05-09-2019 at 09:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:01 PM
AGuinness's Avatar
AGuinness AGuinness is offline
Garth Guibord
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 570
Default

After taking time to think about what PWCC's Marketplace Tenets might mean, I'm not sure it moves the needle that much. The broad reason is because these tenets are for dealing with PWCC, and while Brent and people there can refer to it as the "Market" (with a capital 'M'), they're talking about the PWCC marketplace and not the larger market. And as has been mentioned, the larger market has its established opinions on alterations.
What remains to be seen is if PWCC will include anything about disclosures in their tenets, which will go a long way in knowing how this will all play out. Altering, conserving, rebuilding, rejuvenating... whatever anybody wants to call it; this stuff happens and as long as this is disclosed to buyers, then that's between the seller and the potential buyers. But if any seller doesn't disclose what was done to a card, no matter what they call it, then that's a problem.
Somebody mentioned the adage that stuff trumps all. I think that's partly true. Stuff matters, but relationships also matter. And I know I'm not the only one that will flat-out not buy from a seller who doesn't disclose alterations/conservation/whatever that's been done to a card that they know of. If a "bent region of a card" has been laid flat (as given as an example in the first post), I want to know about it before bidding (much less buying) and I believe that is a reasonable expectation to have. And if any seller doesn't disclose this, I would no longer do business with them. It doesn't matter what stuff they have, I wouldn't touch it based on principle.
I'm also curious how the final wording of the PWCC tenets will look, as it is described as the "rules of engagement" for dealing with PWCC. If conservation is not a necessity to disclose and a buyer finds out after the fact, I believe that eBay's rules will dictate a return is possible - will these tenets follow suit? To that end, I believe it is held that PWCC has a different seller fee schedule than others; does PWCC also have a different set of rules and regulations with eBay that would potentially eliminate the right for buyers to return items "not as described," should they discover some conservation efforts that were not disclosed? These tenets would make more sense if PWCC had its own platform, which may or may not be the end goal for this business.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:03 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,865
Default

Please name one seller who does disclose? How can you know who doesn't so as to avoid them?
__________________
My avatar is a painting by my son, a recent art school graduate.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-09-2019 at 12:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:28 PM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is online now
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 8,628
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuinness View Post
After taking time to think about what PWCC's Marketplace Tenets might mean, I'm not sure it moves the needle that much. The broad reason is because these tenets are for dealing with PWCC, and while Brent and people there can refer to it as the "Market" (with a capital 'M'), they're talking about the PWCC marketplace and not the larger market. And as has been mentioned, the larger market has its established opinions on alterations.
What remains to be seen is if PWCC will include anything about disclosures in their tenets, which will go a long way in knowing how this will all play out. Altering, conserving, rebuilding, rejuvenating... whatever anybody wants to call it; this stuff happens and as long as this is disclosed to buyers, then that's between the seller and the potential buyers. But if any seller doesn't disclose what was done to a card, no matter what they call it, then that's a problem.
Somebody mentioned the adage that stuff trumps all. I think that's partly true. Stuff matters, but relationships also matter. And I know I'm not the only one that will flat-out not buy from a seller who doesn't disclose alterations/conservation/whatever that's been done to a card that they know of. If a "bent region of a card" has been laid flat (as given as an example in the first post), I want to know about it before bidding (much less buying) and I believe that is a reasonable expectation to have. And if any seller doesn't disclose this, I would no longer do business with them. It doesn't matter what stuff they have, I wouldn't touch it based on principle.
I'm also curious how the final wording of the PWCC tenets will look, as it is described as the "rules of engagement" for dealing with PWCC. If conservation is not a necessity to disclose and a buyer finds out after the fact, I believe that eBay's rules will dictate a return is possible - will these tenets follow suit? To that end, I believe it is held that PWCC has a different seller fee schedule than others; does PWCC also have a different set of rules and regulations with eBay that would potentially eliminate the right for buyers to return items "not as described," should they discover some conservation efforts that were not disclosed? These tenets would make more sense if PWCC had its own platform, which may or may not be the end goal for this business.
But once an "asset" is sold by PWCC it will likely be sold/traded at a later date no longer under PWCC's tenets. So this tainted asset will flourish without the disclosure of PWCC's tenets.

This is all so Ree-dickulous!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:40 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
But once an "asset" is sold by PWCC it will likely be sold/traded at a later date no longer under PWCC's tenets. So this tainted asset will flourish without the disclosure of PWCC's tenets.

This is all so Ree-dickulous!!!!
See you're learning the new lingo. I think you need some investment advice from Brent and crew now.
__________________
My avatar is a painting by my son, a recent art school graduate.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-09-2019 at 12:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:13 PM
Goudey77 Goudey77 is offline
Martin
Martin L.ee
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Northwest
Posts: 137
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLongley View Post

Without further ado, here is Will Jaimet:

William Thom Jaimet
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100014391516111
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/will-jaimet-4b851915
Heroes of Sport/Jaimet's Personal Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/media

Blongley,

I made a few in person sales on post war sets with Will Jaimet years ago while he was under the Rose City name. Nice guy with a lot of knowledge. Sorry to hear about his family situation. Fascinating what you can find on the internet.
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:38 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 5,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
What if it's the jawbone's job to smite the Philistines? Does that make Brent guilty?

I'll wait.

Only if the jawbone was a 6 and is now an 8....
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:43 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 5,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.

The one over on the postwar side that graded an 8 but had a corner that layered and folded over, supposedly during slabbing. Which PSA folded back and reslabbed, still as an 8. That would be a good start.

In that case, PSA was both the doctor and slabber.


And the response was pretty much crickets.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Show your conservation/restoration projects aquarius31 Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 6 Yesterday 03:16 PM
Addiction defined Edward Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 21 07-25-2018 08:40 AM
History of Cuban Baseball Book and Paper conservation question Jason19th Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 8 05-03-2009 04:07 PM
Card Alteration Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 4 12-10-2006 07:49 PM
Question about card alteration Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 1 10-24-2006 06:12 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:14 AM.


ebay GSB