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  #1  
Old 05-09-2019, 06:39 PM
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Default Please show your PRE-American Tobacco Company cigarette pack(s)

Samples of mother packs, overprint tax stamps and insert cards are illustrated below


oj1abt70c.jpg

rich2abt70c.jpg

cr1abt70c.jpg
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  #2  
Old 05-09-2019, 09:55 PM
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Ted Zanidakis
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Default Pre - ATC

.



.




I'm not sure that this A & G tin included cards, anyhow......











................














TED Z

T206 Reference
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  #3  
Old 05-10-2019, 12:32 AM
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Default ha ha

Ted you are not following the rules!!

Hello Jerry. Hope all is well?
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  #4  
Old 05-11-2019, 08:57 PM
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In the mid-1880s W. Duke Sons & Co. initiated a drive to increase the sale of the emerging cigarette industry by inserting an advertising picture card as a premium in their brands of cigarettes. The overwhelming positive response by the public to these cards induced most of the rest of companies in the tobacco industry to imitate that success. There are surviving empty packs from those tobacco companies. It is a wonder that 130 year old empty packs were saved in the first place but it is a benefit as it answers a research question.

The dated overprint tax stamp on these early cigarette packs is the only way to prove which packs carried the insert cards. This was my expressed need for only pre-ATC packs, anything else blurs the case. This was to be a survey to find the number of collectors with this particular interest. It appears the number is quite small - actually very close to zero!

BTW The tax stamp overprint is almost impossible to read - a readable text copy of the tax stamp information would be helpful.

For a complete understanding and definitions of this branch of the hobby that connects of tobacco products and baseball cards please visit: http://www.baseballandtobacco.com/index.htm THE SOURCE.
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  #5  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:10 AM
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Hello Jerry,

Hope all is well. You are correct in that our numbers are relatively small (pack collectors). Most pack collectors are found outside of the baseball card hobby. Some of them have more of a non-sport focus and more still don't focus on cards at all other than perhaps an occasional type card to go with their packs.

The website you linked to, from Jon Canfield, is a good source as is your own. We do have more information and corrections that could be added but still great places to start.

My favorite entry in this thread is your Creole pack with a legible cancel date. I have four Creole packs and have studied a couple others that I'm aware of (they are rare packs) and none of them have a legible cancel date. Can you share a high resolution scan of that overprint? The date aligns with my expectations for this 3rd style of Creole pack. Also, is that your N333 Newsboy card?, great card! Some manufacturers such as Goodwin & Ginter typically have easy to read overprints while others are typically impossible or very tough (Kimball, SF Hess, etc.).

I've posted many of my packs in the past but will add to this thread with some Dogs Head packs. Dogs Head cigarettes debuted in late June of 1889, each pack containing an N172 Old Judge baseball card and an N163 Dogs of the World card (together with a coupon and an N173 redemption checklist as shown below).



Cancel dates of SEP 1 1889, Oct 1 1889, and MAR 1 1890. The first two packs would have held 1889 Old Judge cards (Fc) while the March of 1890 pack may have very well held a rare NL/PL 1890 card. I am not aware of any Dogs Head packs post ATC merger.

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Joe Gonsowski
COLLECTOR OF:
- 19th century Detroit memorabilia and cards with emphasis on Goodwin & Co. issues ( N172 / N173 / N175 ) and Tomlinson cabinets
- N333 SF Hess Newsboys League cards (all teams)
- Pre ATC Merger (1890 and prior) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers
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  #6  
Old 05-12-2019, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrys View Post
In the mid-1880s W. Duke Sons & Co. initiated a drive to increase the sale of the emerging cigarette industry by inserting an advertising picture card as a premium in their brands of cigarettes. The overwhelming positive response by the public to these cards induced most of the rest of companies in the tobacco industry to imitate that success. There are surviving empty packs from those tobacco companies. It is a wonder that 130 year old empty packs were saved in the first place but it is a benefit as it answers a research question.

The dated overprint tax stamp on these early cigarette packs is the only way to prove which packs carried the insert cards. This was my expressed need for only pre-ATC packs, anything else blurs the case. This was to be a survey to find the number of collectors with this particular interest. It appears the number is quite small - actually very close to zero!

BTW The tax stamp overprint is almost impossible to read - a readable text copy of the tax stamp information would be helpful.

For a complete understanding and definitions of this branch of the hobby that connects of tobacco products and baseball cards please visit: http://www.baseballandtobacco.com/index.htm THE SOURCE.
Your link is why I love this site. Learn something new every day.

Now I'll shut up and learn more.
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  #7  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:47 AM
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Not to go beyond the scope of this thread but it is ironic that Buck Duke, who started the insert card fad to increase demand of the evil weed due to his favored discount advantage for his assisting James Bobsack to perfect the cigarette-rolling machine, ended this highly expensive component of production by stopping competition. This was done by incorporating with the main five tobacco companies.

My record: ATC was formed the end of January 1890. Would your March 1890 DH pack be included as a card carrier? Merger date incorrect? Could it be Goodwin just used up the supply of old DH packs for economic reasons?

I do not know what this sentence means: "The date aligns with my expectations for this 3rd style of Creole pack." I will send you an enlarged image of the Creole tax stamp when I next use the scanner.

The reference card shown just refers to an arbitrary representative card of that series for that pack. The Creole could have been the actress series N330. The N333 is from a reference file - not mine.

Ted did not convert the Kimball’s tax stamp information into readable text. I cannot make it out.

Your great book on Goodwin's Old Judge Cards is most complete. An added benefit to the reader would have been a reference to information on the manufacture and distribution of OJ cards and packs, if in existence.
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  #8  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:37 PM
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Hi Jerry! I may not be understanding your question, but in the book we do discuss the manufacturing process for the cards. We also talk briefly about the evolution from cigarette girls making cigarettes to machine made cigarettes and the reason for card inclusion in packs. However, if we ever do an update (unlikely) we will probably expand on this discussion.
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  #9  
Old 05-13-2019, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrys View Post
Not to go beyond the scope of this thread but it is ironic that Buck Duke, who started the insert card fad to increase demand of the evil weed due to his favored discount advantage for his assisting James Bobsack to perfect the cigarette-rolling machine, ended this highly expensive component of production by stopping competition. This was done by incorporating with the main five tobacco companies.

My record: ATC was formed the end of January 1890. Would your March 1890 DH pack be included as a card carrier? Merger date incorrect? Could it be Goodwin just used up the supply of old DH packs for economic reasons?

I do not know what this sentence means: "The date aligns with my expectations for this 3rd style of Creole pack." I will send you an enlarged image of the Creole tax stamp when I next use the scanner.

The reference card shown just refers to an arbitrary representative card of that series for that pack. The Creole could have been the actress series N330. The N333 is from a reference file - not mine.

Ted did not convert the Kimball’s tax stamp information into readable text. I cannot make it out.

Your great book on Goodwin's Old Judge Cards is most complete. An added benefit to the reader would have been a reference to information on the manufacture and distribution of OJ cards and packs, if in existence.

As an aside, you didn't directly ask about this but I think it of interest to post here . . . Duke wasn't the first to introduce the slide and shell box nor was he the first to introduce inserts/cards. Thomas Hall introduced the slide and shell box way back in 1876 and appears to have begun inserting cards in 1877 or 1878. There are some fantastic threads on this over on the Non-Sport forum, have a look. Hall's Between the Acts cards would continue to be inserted in various forms (many variations, large set) all the way until Thomas Hall joined the ATC in 1895. Duke however is responsible for making the slide and shell popular and all others soon followed. Duke took the plunge and transitioned from paper packs to slide and shell for Cameo cigarettes in May of 1886 however it is unclear when inserts were added. Soon after Duke transitioned the Cameo brand of cigarettes to slide and shell box they moved onto their other brands while in parallel the competition was doing the same. The dates for when cards were inserted into these slide and shell boxes are unknown to me although I'm certain Goodwin made a near immediate jump to both introducing slide and shell and card inserts (Dec. 1886).

ATC merger was popular gossip and reported on through-out 1889 and early 1890 but didn't become official until March of 1890. The first report I can find of discontinuing inserts was by Kimball on March 7th, 1890. A&G continued issuing new card sets that were already in process (Quadrupeds, Wild Animals of the World, etc.). Some cards began being distributed in multiple brands (for example both Goodwin and A&G would issue wild animals of the world). It took awhile for card production to cease.

I commented earlier that I've never seen a Dogs Head pack post ATC merger (post March 1890), but I'm sure they exist. I know Dogs Head (& Old Judge) became popular exports but sales of cigarettes in the US slowed drastically for these old Goodwin brands. If you find a post ATC merger Goodwin pack, it will likely be an export pack (like the one Ted posted).

There are three different styles of Creole cigarette pack for which yours is #3. N321 cards have been found saved in that style pack and it was suspected that the cards and pack date to late 1888. All three issues, N321, N333, & N338-1, are late 1888 issues. I'm less certain on timing of N338-2.

I'm pretty sure there is no dated overprint on Ted's Kimball pack. There was a nice find of High Grade packs that are spread though-out the hobby but they lack dated overprints.
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Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski
COLLECTOR OF:
- 19th century Detroit memorabilia and cards with emphasis on Goodwin & Co. issues ( N172 / N173 / N175 ) and Tomlinson cabinets
- N333 SF Hess Newsboys League cards (all teams)
- Pre ATC Merger (1890 and prior) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers

Last edited by Joe_G.; 05-13-2019 at 05:28 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2019, 05:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrys View Post

Ted did not convert the Kimball’s tax stamp information into readable text. I cannot make it out.

Sorry Jerry.....I was in a hurry when I included that earlier post here. Therefore...…..


W. S. KIMBALL Company (Rochester, NY)

Stamp:

Manf, 417, 28th District,
NEW YORK



.




No stamp

.





I included my ATC CAMEO pack to illustrate Joe G's excellent information (I don't have an insert card to display with it).

Stamp:

Factory, No. 42
4th District, N.C.
June 1, '93


. .




TED Z

T206 Reference
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  #11  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:07 PM
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Joe--What about the N167s? They predate Dec., 1886.
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  #12  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Joe--What about the N167s? They predate Dec., 1886.
Yes, this is a bit of a mystery. I'm hopeful that a source will surface that helps explain this. It is possible Goodwin made the transition to slide and shell box before the date provided in Tobacco Journal article which was written in early 1890. Perhaps N167s were given away at point of sale in advance of the slide and shell or maybe they were distributed in Dec. 1886 in a slide and shell box that was supposed to be available earlier . . . a mystery for now.
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Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski
COLLECTOR OF:
- 19th century Detroit memorabilia and cards with emphasis on Goodwin & Co. issues ( N172 / N173 / N175 ) and Tomlinson cabinets
- N333 SF Hess Newsboys League cards (all teams)
- Pre ATC Merger (1890 and prior) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers

Last edited by Joe_G.; 05-13-2019 at 06:39 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:34 PM
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So you are saying that it is possible that N167s were issued at the same time as Spotted Ties? Wouldn't that elevate Spotted Ties to the first conventional baseball card set (Tied with N167s) ever? We may have to agree to disagree on this one.
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  #14  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
So you are saying that it is possible that N167s were issued at the same time as Spotted Ties? Wouldn't that elevate Spotted Ties to the first conventional baseball card set (Tied with N167s) ever? We may have to agree to disagree on this one.
I'm not stating N167s are tied with Spotted Ties but here is what we can state factually:

Period literature (Feb. 21st, 1890 Tobacco Journal) states Goodwin made transition from paper pack to slide and shell box in Dec. 1886.



The rest is speculation. The Tobacco Journal could be in error but I tend to believe it.

Paper packs would not provide a good source for cards, they would be creased and rounded based on how the cigarettes were packaged.

N167 cards could have been distributed before the transition to slide and shell box but it likely would not have been as a cigarette pack insert. They could have been distributed at point of sale, perhaps a handful per case.

Goodwin may have planned to have the boxes available before Dec. 1886 and had the cards printed at an earlier date and then held them until the Whiting Co. delivered first boxes in Dec. 1886. The Whiting Box Co. was very busy trying to fill orders for Duke and the rest, this was a booming business.

Or maybe N167 had a very short run as did Spotted Ties/script cards leading up to early 1887.

It's also not unheard of for these early cards to be based on one timeframe but be issued at a later date. Allen & Ginter, for example, debuted the N29 cards in August of 1889 showing Getzien with Detroit (a team that had disbanded at close of 1888 season). Goodwin would issue cards of players after they retired (Mathews) or even passed (Ferguson and McKinnon - GQ was likely issued after his death).

Lots of possibilities, I am still hopeful that more details will surface that help us piece the puzzle together.
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COLLECTOR OF:
- 19th century Detroit memorabilia and cards with emphasis on Goodwin & Co. issues ( N172 / N173 / N175 ) and Tomlinson cabinets
- N333 SF Hess Newsboys League cards (all teams)
- Pre ATC Merger (1890 and prior) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers
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  #15  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:32 PM
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That's a great article--thanks Joe!
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  #16  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:23 AM
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Thanks for all that information.

As mentioned about your book. I look at things from an engineering point of view. The following facts may no longer be available but it would be interesting to know the answers. They are also not necessary for inclusion. Sorry if I overlooked anything on this list that are in your book.

Quality and size of the card stock. (1/16”X12”X16”?)
Type of printing presses. Lythopress?
Production rate:
One side, one color, one pass through the press?
Number per hour.
Drying method - Cutting tools - Storage.
Choosing and notifying players to be photographed.
Notification of product availability (press release) (advertising)
Method of assembly:
Card and other material inserted in pack.
Overprinting Tax Stamp.
Sealing Old Judge pack.
Distribution method.

The Bonsack patent was register in 1881 but it did work properly until 1885. That is why A&G turned it down in the early years.
There were two other cigarette rolling machines invented during that same time period but I don’t remember the name of one associated with Goodwin. The other was a Russian machine about 1890.
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Old 05-14-2019, 06:01 PM
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This tool was apparently used in the pack assembly process. The main piece is the exact size of a pack. It says American Tobacco Co. so it is 1890 or later. It also sports the Gypsy Queen name.
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg 5735D83E-E0EF-4E28-AA8B-0421315CE92B.jpg (7.3 KB, 74 views)

Last edited by oldjudge; 05-14-2019 at 06:35 PM.
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  #18  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:57 PM
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No history on record for the Goodwin Company internal operations.

Goodwin used the Emery Cigarette Machine, named after the inventor Charles G. Emery.


img002.jpg
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  #19  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:00 AM
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Jerry-You might enjoy reading the first chapter of our book. This chapter details the history of Goodwin and Co. BTW, Charles G. Emery's middle name was Goodwin and he was one of the people running the company.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:36 AM
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I've read the book, quite a while ago - well more than half of it - but I know where to find any subject in it and if I want to see a special card I can where as I may never without the book. You guys have done more than 99+ % of hobbyists or most anyone or group for the good of the hobby. Thorough in detail. My questions are not critical, they are the type of questions I've tried the find on defunct companies for my own interests and have failed. Thought you may have found the right door. But if information that one is looking for was never published - there is no door.

Yes, Charles and brother William predated Bonsack with inventions. However you show the Bonsack machine in the book but the Emery was the Goodwin Company workhorse apparently. Through all the legal fighting with infringement cases in the 1880s Bonsack came out first as most reliable and carried through into the ATC years.

Joe - hope you get what you are looking for on the Creole tax stamp.
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  #21  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:59 AM
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The business records for Goodwin and Co. are housed at the main branch of the NY Public Library. Additional information might be available there. Good luck!
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  #22  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrys View Post
Joe - hope you get what you are looking for on the Creole tax stamp.
That is perfect Jerry, It is a Nov 1888 cancel and helps date the different Creole pack styles. Thank you for sharing, nice pack.
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Joe Gonsowski
COLLECTOR OF:
- 19th century Detroit memorabilia and cards with emphasis on Goodwin & Co. issues ( N172 / N173 / N175 ) and Tomlinson cabinets
- N333 SF Hess Newsboys League cards (all teams)
- Pre ATC Merger (1890 and prior) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers
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  #23  
Old 05-17-2019, 07:13 AM
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Not in that neighborhood - but technical methods of production are not generally included in with company business records.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Joe - Apparently you have an example of all three types of Creole packs. Rare to see any of them.
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