NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-01-2010, 08:23 PM
vintagesportflips's Avatar
vintagesportflips vintagesportflips is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 494
Default 19th Century Dan Brouthers John Clarkson Ball and Pins Game

Hey guys,
I wanted to share images of a piece that came up for auction at an auction house near me earlier today, and see if anyone had ever seen one before. I saw this same game in an estate auction about 8 months ago around the corner from me, and I left what I thought was a pretty decent absentee bid (I had to work), but I got blown away. Then I noticed it show up at the catalog auction of a bigger local auction house and went up for sale earlier today. I didn't win it this time either, and the final hammer price for it was $9000.00 before the commission.

The item in question was a leather ball, and 6 pins each with a different painted rendering of a baseball player on it. The leather ball was closer to the size of a softball than a baseball (it could have actually been a softball), and the ball had a little give to it when pressed. It did not have any stitching present, and the seam had more of the look of an early softball with a stitchless seam. The ball had 2 silver medallions some how attached to it, 1 on each side. One had an image of Dan Brouthers with the engraving World Champion Batter, the other an image of John Clarkson with World Champion Pitcher. I know Hunts had a game they auction several years ago called The Champion Game that had Brouthers and Clarkson on the cover (image below), but that appeared to be a spinner type game, so I am not sure if there is any connection.

I was just curious if anyone had ever seen this ball and pin game before, and as to the possible date of it. The ball doesn't look like an 1880s or early 90s ball to me, but I could definetly be wrong.





Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:04 PM
Butch7999's Avatar
Butch7999 Butch7999 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 980
Default

Fascinating find, k-j! Mark Cooper has (or at least had) a very similar set -- the only other one in existence that we're aware of -- which is shown on page 30 of his Baseball Games catalogue.

His set, which he labelled "19th Century Bowling Pins," "Manufacturer unknown," likewise includes six wooden pins, with player images identical to those on the set you show, and a ball roughly three inches in diameter. However, the pins in his set are shaped differently -- thicker and more cylindrical, less tapered, and with significantly different top finials -- and the ball in his set appears more billiard-ball-like, possibly ceramic and definitely with no medallions.

The Brouthers-Clarkson features, then, are the first we've heard of in connection with this bowling set, although their appearance on The Champion Game of Base Ball (A S Schutz, 1889) is well known. If the ball in the set you show is authentic to the era, it might well date the bowling set to 1889, same as the Schutz spinner game, since that season (in which Brouthers won the NL batting title and Clarkson led the league in most every major pitching stat) was the only season the duo were teammates, and it would make sense that they'd have been used together promotionally.
__________________
-- the three idiots at
Baseball Games
https://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/baseballgames/

Successful transactions with: bocabirdman, GrayGhost, jimivintage,
Oneofthree67, orioles93, quinnsryche, thecatspajamas, ValKehl
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-02-2010, 03:53 AM
CarltonHendricks's Avatar
CarltonHendricks CarltonHendricks is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,131
Default great pins

Man those pins are out there...and so is the 9 g's. Great post! Those would be in the exotic category....and when you add baseball + exotic you get in the high rent district. You have to wonder who the two bidders were that got into it, and who got it. I speculate had you not posted this, we may not have ever seen them in the hobby and that some dealer, and I have one in mind, won them and will flip them for $15,000.00 - $20,000.00 to a collector we may or may not even know of. I've heard a legend of very high profile celebrity collector. Are they worth that kind of money? In relation to how rare they are and they are baseball and relate to world champions....$15,000.00 - $20,000.00 could just be a fraction of what they are worth. A bargain is a state of mind, but there are likely collectors who aren't after bargains. They're just so happy to find something like these pins they'll pay what ever, and be very glad to. Exotic baseball is just so tough to find. It always has been, but there's even less of it today to be had than 20-30 years ago because the little there is, is off the market locked up in collections. Look how sparse the auctions have gotten for great display pieces over the last few years, never mind exotic The amount of exotic baseball that exists can not increase. Sure there can be finds of something unearthed never before seen, sort of like these pins, but these kinds of "unearthed finds" don't happen as often as they did 20 years ago. But the amount of collectors can and does increase by the decade....and that can only result in increased prices. I think that's particularly true for exotic material. Very rarely do we see exotic pieces in the hobby, I think the really great stuff get's taken into custody before it hits the market. Although occasionally something gets loose. That 1871 Eagles Base Ball Club broadside in Hunt's last year...which ended up at the 09' National...now there is a good example of exotic baseball that miraculously got thru. Whenever I think of exotic baseball I think of a 48" wide c1890 baseball box office sign I saw in a book...a perfect example of what you never see come up in the hobby.



__________________
Do you read Sports Antique of the Week? Check it out on my site SportsAntiques.com/Antique of the Week


Last edited by CarltonHendricks; 01-02-2010 at 12:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-02-2010, 06:33 AM
Jay Wolt's Avatar
Jay Wolt Jay Wolt is offline
qualitycards
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Gettysburg PA area
Posts: 2,924
Default

Great write up on the pins & balls, never seen them before.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-02-2010, 02:38 PM
khkco4bls khkco4bls is offline
Kevin O'Gara
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: long island
Posts: 1,696
Default bowling game

i saw a set with boston players painted on the pins and a wooden ball at brimfield this past year for 2500.00 dollars.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-04-2010, 09:05 PM
insidethewrapper's Avatar
insidethewrapper insidethewrapper is offline
Mike
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,345
Default

That doesn't really look like Dan Brouthers to me. Any other 19th Century expert opinions ?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-05-2010, 05:12 AM
Butch7999's Avatar
Butch7999 Butch7999 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 980
Default

Dunno... am I Dan Brouthers' keeper?



Left to right: image from k-j's bowling ball; illustration from The Champion Game of Base Ball (A S Schutz, 1889); photo from Alpha Engraving card, 1894 (image cropped and reversed); photo from N300 Mayo, 1895 (image cropped and reversed).

You be the ol' judge. For folk-art, looks close enough for us...
__________________
-- the three idiots at
Baseball Games
https://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/baseballgames/

Successful transactions with: bocabirdman, GrayGhost, jimivintage,
Oneofthree67, orioles93, quinnsryche, thecatspajamas, ValKehl
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-05-2010, 07:31 AM
batsballsbases's Avatar
batsballsbases batsballsbases is offline
Al
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: From Ct+ NY now retired in North Carolina
Posts: 2,169
Default Brouthers

Looks good to me!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-05-2010, 01:54 PM
jbsports33's Avatar
jbsports33 jbsports33 is offline
Jimmy
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: MA
Posts: 1,618
Default 19th Century Dan Brouthers John Clarkson Ball and Pins Game

great looking stuff,

Jimmy
__________________
“Devoted to Bringing Quality Vintage Sports Cards and Memorabilia to the Hobby”
https://www.ebay.com/str/jbsportsauctions
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-05-2010, 03:12 PM
khkco4bls khkco4bls is offline
Kevin O'Gara
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: long island
Posts: 1,696
Default

both etchings look like they were copied from the cover of the game.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-05-2010, 11:15 PM
olsport olsport is offline
Paul
member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cali-"Paradise"
Posts: 143
Default Educated guess

Just a good educated guess here, but I would believe these to be two seperate items that don't even belong together. The ball would NOT be used with the pins to roll and knock them down. That wouldn't make sense. Those beautifully engraved medallions would get dented every time they struck the pins. No way! Also, the pins would be all chipped up and damaged on there surfaces from those medallions of metal hitting into them, yet neither has much, if any wear. That ball wouldn't even roll very straight with those on it. I would think the ball is something very special, even more so then the game pins, like a commemorative or trophy game ball, or who knows what. It is way too fancy also for a child's game item. What do others have to say?
__________________
"Variety is the Spice of Life!"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-08-2010, 03:07 PM
olsport olsport is offline
Paul
member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cali-"Paradise"
Posts: 143
Default bump

didn't hear from anyone yet??
__________________
"Variety is the Spice of Life!"
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-08-2010, 10:55 PM
Butch7999's Avatar
Butch7999 Butch7999 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 980
Default

We'd say those are all excellent points.
Additionally, the pins seem almost too finely crafted to have been intended for use in a collision game and appear more like decorative objects...
__________________
-- the three idiots at
Baseball Games
https://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/baseballgames/

Successful transactions with: bocabirdman, GrayGhost, jimivintage,
Oneofthree67, orioles93, quinnsryche, thecatspajamas, ValKehl
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-09-2010, 07:43 AM
batsballsbases's Avatar
batsballsbases batsballsbases is offline
Al
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: From Ct+ NY now retired in North Carolina
Posts: 2,169
Default Game

I also agree with you Paul. The Balls really dont look like they belong with the pins. And why does one have a nice finial on the top? Even if the others were cut off it still doesnt look like they would match. To me it looks like this was put together from 3 different sets.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:11 AM.


ebay GSB