Battle of the icons

[Wolverine]

This was a discussion I had with a few buddies of mine earlier today and it basically expands on my other thread about the future of the sports memorabilia market.

If you were to choose 4 athletes from different sports to represent the sports memorabilia hobby as a whole, it's pretty safe to say that there are 4 "kings" of this hobby that would immediately come to mind. You have Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali and Wayne Gretzky.

Now, right now its pretty obvious that Babe Ruth is the true leader of this hobby. But will he always be king or will someone else eventually surpass him? So far, the only other athlete to even come close to bringing in Ruthian values on his memorabilia is Ali. But will premium Jordan, Ali or Gretzky items ever surpass Ruth values in the future?

I'm not talking about average prices on their memorabilia in general because obviously that wouldn't be a fair comparison being that Ruth items are so rare compared to the others. I'm talking specifically about the best of the best from these other icons.

For example, lets say just for fun that in the year 2050 Heritage Auctions lists a Babe Ruth uniform, a Michael Jordan rookie season uniform and a Wayne Gretzky rookie season uniform up for bid in the same auction. Do you think by that time the Jordan or Gretzky uniform sale prices could challenge the Ruth uniform by reaching the $1 million+ mark? Or will Ruth still reign supreme?

[vintagesportscollector]

IMO, surpass? No. Challenge? No, and I don't even think Gretzky is even in the conversation when compared to Ruth - no way to even consider he would pass Ruth in memorabilia supremacy. Not even the same ballpark/rink. I'm a big hockey fan but the demand will not be there.

All things being equal relative to rarity - lets say hypothetically there was only one example existing of each athletes uniform - Ruth wins hands down. Add on top of that that I would imagine several rookie uniform examples exist for both Jordan and Gretzky.

[Wolverine]

Originally Posted by vintagesportscollector

IMO, surpass? No. Challenge? No, and I don't even think Gretzky is even in the conversation when compared to Ruth - no way to even consider he would pass Ruth in memorabilia supremacy. Not even the same ballpark/rink. I'm a big hockey fan but the demand will not be there.

All things being equal relative to rarity - lets say hypothetically there was only one example existing of each athletes uniform - Ruth wins hands down. Add on top of that that I would imagine several rookie uniform examples exist for both Jordan and Gretzky.

Interesting. I agree with your view on Gretzky, but Jordan has a fanbase unlike any other athlete on the planet. His appeal goes worldwide. I was thinking that down the line when all of the younger fans who watched him play are near retirement age and have expandable income, his stuff will skyrocket.

Then again, Babe Ruth was the first true sports icon/celebrity ever and not only plays a huge role in sports history but also in American and pop culture history as well. He was the face of one of the most prosperous and important decades in American history.

That's why I can really see this both ways and was interested in hearing what others thought about it. Thanks for your response.

[earlywynnfan]

I wonder what Jordan's mystique will be when all of us who saw him play are gone? Nobody carries the passion for Wilt, Russell, or Mikan anymore. I'll bet in that 2050 auction some other basketball player's jersey sells for more than Jordan. While on the other hand, no flavor of the week (Strasburg, Bryce, anyone) touches Ruth's stuff.

[Wolverine]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I wonder what Jordan's mystique will be when all of us who saw him play are gone? Nobody carries the passion for Wilt, Russell, or Mikan anymore. I'll bet in that 2050 auction some other basketball player's jersey sells for more than Jordan. While on the other hand, no flavor of the week (Strasburg, Bryce, anyone) touches Ruth's stuff.

The thing Jordan has going for him that will always keep him relevant is his shoe brand. The Nike Air Jordan brand may be even more popular today than it was back when he was playing. As long as they keep making his shoes, I think his name will always be relevant.

The other thing is that we have plenty of video evidence of Jordan's greatness. You can go on YouTube and watch Jordan play from the time he was in college at UNC all the way through his final season with the Wizards. Wilt, Russell and Mikan don't have that luxury so they're more prone to being forgotten/underappreciated over time.

[drcy]

In non-sports Greta Garbo used to be the big one, in part because she was the #1 star of her day and because she refused to autograph. Though she is still popular with collectors, her star has dimmed in recent years, including for her autographs. Same with Rudolf Valentino.

[Wolverine]

Originally Posted by drcy

In non-sports Greta Garbo used to be the big one, in part because she was the #1 star of her day and because she refused to autograph. Though she is still popular with collectors, her star has dimmed in recent years, including for her autographs. Same with Rudolf Valentino.

What do you mean by this? Are you comparing her to Ruth or Jordan?

[Writehooks]

I live and work (as a sportswriter) in China, where the NBA reigns supreme and Jordan is still phenomenally popular. That said, MJ's appeal doesn't hold a candle to Ali's in the world's most populous nation. People here -- all age groups, from middle school kids to octagenarians -- recognize Jordan as a great athlete, but that's it. Ali, as he did in so many other corners of the globe, struck a chord with the Chinese as both a great athlete and as a great human being, whose imapact outside the ring was even more impressive than what he accomplished as a boxer. That's not likely to change -- here, or anywhere else on the planet. For my money, Ali will always be No 1 in global terms, with Pele, Jordan and Tiger Woods also in the conversation. Babe Ruth and Wayne Gretzky barely register on the scale, outside North America. BTW: As a Canadian, I feel confident in predicting that no hockey jersey -- not Gretzky's rookie, not Orr's, not Gordie Howe's -- will ever sell for more than the $1.3 million it took four years ago to acquire Paul Henderson's 1972 Team Canada jersey from the fabled "Summit Series" against the USSR.

[Wolverine]

Originally Posted by Writehooks

I live and work (as a sportswriter) in China, where the NBA reigns supreme and Jordan is still phenomenally popular. That said, MJ's appeal doesn't hold a candle to Ali's in the world's most populous nation. People here -- all age groups, from middle school kids to octagenarians -- recognize Jordan as a great athlete, but that's it. Ali, as he did in so many other corners of the globe, struck a chord with the Chinese as both a great athlete and as a great human being, whose imapact outside the ring was even more impressive than what he accomplished as a boxer. That's not likely to change -- here, or anywhere else on the planet. For my money, Ali will always be No 1 in global terms, with Pele, Jordan and Tiger Woods also in the conversation. Babe Ruth and Wayne Gretzky barely register on the scale, outside North America. BTW: As a Canadian, I feel confident in predicting that no hockey jersey -- not Gretzky's rookie, not Orr's, not Gordie Howe's -- will ever sell for more than the $1.3 million it took four years ago to acquire Paul Henderson's 1972 Team Canada jersey from the fabled "Summit Series" against the USSR.

Thanks for the insight. These are great points, and I agree that Ali's fame is unmatched around the world. The only thing I question is whether or not this actually transfers over into the memorabilia market. While Ali's appeal is second to none worldwide, his memorabilia still doesn't hold a candle to Babe Ruth. Right after Ali's death, when his memorabilia was on fire and he was in the news every day, I believe the highest price paid for one of his items was $606,000 for his gloves worn in the "Fight of the Century" bout against Frazier at Madison Square Garden.

This is a far cry from the $717,000 paid for Babe Ruth's 1921 59th home run bat, the $996,000 for his Red Sox/Yankees trade agreement contract, the $1.2 million for his 1923 bat used to hit the first HR at Yankee Stadium, the $4.2 million paid for his 1920 Yankees jersey, etc. etc.

[da-bullman]

Wow was Better Ruth or Thorpe? I would pick Jim Thorpe

[Wolverine]

Originally Posted by da-bullman

Wow was Better Ruth or Thorpe? I would pick Jim Thorpe

Thorpe was the better athlete overall but when it comes to baseball specifically it's no contest. But I'm not sure how this relates to the original question.

Any other ideas/opinions?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Wolverine

Thanks for the insight. These are great points, and I agree that Ali's fame is unmatched around the world. The only thing I question is whether or not this actually transfers over into the memorabilia market. While Ali's appeal is second to none worldwide, his memorabilia still doesn't hold a candle to Babe Ruth. Right after Ali's death, when his memorabilia was on fire and he was in the news every day, I believe the highest price paid for one of his items was $606,000 for his gloves worn in the "Fight of the Century" bout against Frazier at Madison Square Garden.

This is a far cry from the $717,000 paid for Babe Ruth's 1921 59th home run bat, the $996,000 for his Red Sox/Yankees trade agreement contract, the $1.2 million for his 1923 bat used to hit the first HR at Yankee Stadium, the $4.2 million paid for his 1920 Yankees jersey, etc. etc.

Ironically, I attended the live Heritage Platinum Sports Auction in NYC where the Ali's Fight of the Century gloves were sold.
It was a cool event to watch from the auction floor, although the winning bid came from a call-in bidder.

[Wolverine]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Ironically, I attended the live Heritage Platinum Sports Auction in NYC where the Ali's Fight of the Century gloves were sold.
It was a cool event to watch from the auction floor, although the winning bid came from a call-in bidder.

I've been wanting to attend one of those events for awhile now. How do they handle bidding for major items like that? Is it similar to classic car auctions?


Also... anyone else have an opinion on Ruth vs Jordan/Ali?