Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

Well if you guys don't mind being ripped off by shill bidders could you just send the extra money to me? I guess if you have something and don't know it, and I steal it, it's ok? Sounds good to me.

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Leon

Well if you guys don't mind being ripped off by shill bidders could you just send the extra money to me? I guess if you have something and don't know it, and I steal it, it's ok? Sounds good to me.

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

That really wasn't my point. I was giving you a counter to your example, which I think is fairly logical, no?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

That really wasn't my point. I was giving you a counter to your example, which I think is fairly logical, no?

Oh yeah, it's logical and I understand the comments about the fraud being a reserve. I get it.

ps...I should add almost all of my comments aren't pertaining to Probstein, they are how I feel about shill bidding.

If the sales venue has that shill bidding IS allowed in their sales, then I guess I have no issue with it. But that isn't the way most sales venues in our hobby operate.

and from my good friend wiki- so we are on the same page-

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Leon

Oh yeah, it's logical and I understand the comments about the fraud being a reserve. I get it.

ps...I should add almost all of my comments aren't pertaining to Probstein, they are how I feel about shill bidding.

If the sales venue has that shill bidding IS allowed in their sales, then I guess I have no issue with it. But that isn't the way most sales venues in our hobby operate.

and from my good friend wiki- so we are on the same page-

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

.

I am not a fan of shill bidding either, but any card or item sold on eBay/auction site has the same chance of being shilled, as an item by Probstein. You can say any cards sales data are fraudulent. He takes the brunt, because he is a big target, but a lot of people complaining about his auctions, have probably been shilled on other seller's auctions, and they don't even know it. This brings me back to my point of being an educated bidder, which to me makes shilling an afterthought.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

I am not a fan of shill bidding either, but any card or item sold on eBay/auction site has the same chance of being shilled, as an item by Probstein. You can say any cards sales data are fraudulent. He takes the brunt, because he is a big target, but a lot of people complaining about his auctions, have probably been shilled on other seller's auctions, and they don't even know it. This brings me back to my point of being an educated bidder, which to me makes shilling an afterthought.

Child, when caught with hand in cookie jar: "But Mom, everyone in our house has the same chance of having stolen a cookie! You are just picking on me because I'm the biggest cookie eater!" (hand in jar during entire discourse)

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Leon

and from my good friend wiki- so we are on the same page-

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

.

Leon,

IMO, you cut short the crux of the matter.

"Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1] because of the potential for fraud and damage; however if a shill does not place uninformed parties at a risk of loss, but merely generates "buzz," the shill's actions may be legal. For example, a person planted in an audience to laugh and applaud when desired (see claque), or to participate in on-stage activities as a "random member of the audience," is a type of legal shill."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tschock

Leon,

IMO, you cut short the crux of the matter.

"Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1] because of the potential for fraud and damage; however if a shill does not place uninformed parties at a risk of loss, but merely generates "buzz," the shill's actions may be legal. For example, a person planted in an audience to laugh and applaud when desired (see claque), or to participate in on-stage activities as a "random member of the audience," is a type of legal shill."

Actually that is exactly the crux of the matter. The crux is that without a shill the buyer IS at risk of paying more and will therefore lose. I agree there needs to be a victim and there is one, the buyer.

And like I said, I am aware of some instances outside of our hobby where shilling is permitted and done all of the time. So be it and forewarned is fair-warned.

IF we all want to applaud for him, nah, no harm done.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Leon

Actually that is exactly the crux of the matter. The crux is that without a shill the buyer IS at risk of paying more and will therefore lose. I agree there needs to be a victim and there is one, the buyer.

And like I said, I am aware of some instances outside of our hobby where shilling is permitted and done all of the time. So be it and forewarned is fair-warned.

IF we all want to applaud for him, nah, no harm done.

Sorry, poorly worded on my part. I realized you knew that. Just (for others) that it is illegal in many jurisdictions and there is a reason for that.

[D. Bergin]

Alright, I'll be the elephant in the room here. The guy has only bid on 5 items in the last month........he has zero bid retractions in the last 6 months.

Is the 100% figure (on 5 items) the only evidence you have that this guy is an actual shill?

Is there a prior history of Probstein selling these exact same cards, that somebody else might have won, prior to your winning them?

Could it actually be that he saw a card from a set he was looking for and threw in his obligatory few bids for the month?

.....another possibility, and I've heard of several OCD type collectors who do this. He may have already had the card, but saw it was going for a low price and raised the ceiling on them, figuring he was protecting the market. If he wins, no biggy, it's a card he likes anyways.......if he loses, no biggy, he thinks he kept the market from crashing on a card he likes.