Gone with the stain

[G1911]

The business is centered on altering cards for people to then sell as if they weren’t restored. Done with a wink of legitimacy of course, they aren’t doing the fraud part themselves directly, but they know damn well what their service is for.

Many will heavily frown on people altering cards. Gone with the Stain isn’t soaking in water to remove cards from a scrapbook.

[NiceDocter]

Don’t mess with guys like this. They are basically in the business of altering cards to try and pass off as better for more money. Don’t think that they don’t ruin their fair share of not only cards but others reputations along the way for what they do. Steer clear if you want to keep your good name intact. Clear water soaking out of a scrapbook is not what they are all about.

[jchcollins]

Say what you will about guys like Dick Towle, but unless he was just lying - my understanding is that the large majority of cards he worked on did wind up grading fine with PSA and SGC afterwards. If it's really that untraceable, you have to be a purist several degrees further along the spectrum than I am I guess to object...

It would definitely be something under the category of "Don't try this at home, kids..." for me.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Say what you will about guys like Dick Towle, but unless he was just lying - my understanding is that the large majority of cards he worked on did wind up grading fine with PSA and SGC afterwards. If it's really that untraceable, you have to be a purist several degrees further along the spectrum than I am I guess to object...

It would definitely be something under the category of "Don't try this at home, kids..." for me.

That PSA and SGC are grossly incompetent doesn’t justify fraud and undisclosed alteration (which is what happens with the vast, vast majority of cards they doctor).

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

That PSA and SGC are grossly incompetent doesn’t justify fraud and undisclosed alteration (which is what happens with the vast, vast majority of cards they doctor).

Apologies, guess I'm wearing my realist cap today. That they are grossly (or maybe at least somewhat) incompetent is also something that is unlikely to ever change. If folks 2 years ago or so could not get on the bandwagon to force change after all the alteration / trimming, Moser-gate - then I have little faith that it will ever happen.

I don't like cards that are obviously altered, no, but the truth of the matter is that with most cards like those that come out of GWTS, many of us cannot tell the difference. Maybe it isn't that we shouldn't care - it's just that I don't see much room for change.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Apologies, guess I'm wearing my realist cap today. That they are grossly (or maybe at least somewhat) incompetent is also something that is unlikely to ever change. If folks 2 years ago or so could not get on the bandwagon to force change after all the alteration / trimming, Moser-gate - then I have little faith that it will ever happen.

I don't like cards that are obviously altered, no, but the truth of the matter is that with most cards like those that come out of GWTS, many of us cannot tell the difference. Maybe it isn't that we shouldn't care - it's just that I don't see much room for change.

I agree that PSA is unlikely to become competent (or not corrupt, one can take their pick). Many people cannot tell the alterations.

But I don't think that is justification (very different from 'realistic'), and doesn't mean one shouldn't object to it. That the fraud goes undetected does not make it okay.

Originally Posted by jchcollins

...my understanding is that the large majority of cards he worked on did wind up grading fine with PSA and SGC afterwards. If it's really that untraceable, you have to be a purist several degrees further along the spectrum than I am I guess to object...

Your original argument here is not that it's realistic to acknowledge it will happen and the graders will certify them anyways. Your statement as written is that frauds (as not disclosing alterations is) that are not detected are unobjectionable. Getting away with the crime doesn't make it unobjectionable. Selling a knock off to someone they don't know isn't real and looks pretty close isn't alright. Many in the hobby clearly feel that any and everything is fine if it gets into a slab and PSA certifies the fraud, but I have a hard time seeing any ethical argument for the original statement.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree that PSA is unlikely to become competent (or not corrupt, one can take their pick). Many people cannot tell the alterations.

But I don't think that is justification (very different from 'realistic'), and doesn't mean one shouldn't object to it. That the fraud goes undetected does not make it okay.



Your original argument here is not that it's realistic to acknowledge it will happen and the graders will certify them anyways. Your statement as written is that frauds (as not disclosing alterations is) that are not detected are unobjectionable. Getting away with the crime doesn't make it unobjectionable. Selling a knock off to someone they don't know isn't real and looks pretty close isn't alright. Many in the hobby clearly feel that any and everything is fine if it gets into a slab and PSA certifies the fraud, but I have a hard time seeing any ethical argument for the original statement.

I insinuated that, yes. Whether or not I actually feel that was most of the time is another matter. So, regardless of how I feel as one collector - let's say it's not ok. What do you propose we do about it? I can hate doctors and trimmers and other alteration hacks all day long in theory.

[Triton21]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

Don’t mess with guys like this. They are basically in the business of altering cards to try and pass off as better for more money. Don’t think that they don’t ruin their fair share of not only cards but others reputations along the way for what they do. Steer clear if you want to keep your good name intact. Clear water soaking out of a scrapbook is not what they are all about.

So Rocky since you know so much about gone with the stain And what we supposedly do I would like you to educate us and the baseball card world exactly what it is that you think we do!?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

The business is centered on altering cards for people to then sell as if they weren’t restored. Done with a wink of legitimacy of course, they aren’t doing the fraud part themselves directly, but they know damn well what their service is for.

Many will heavily frown on people altering cards. Gone with the Stain isn’t soaking in water to remove cards from a scrapbook.

I don't see any difference. Soaking cards is altering and those that do it don't disclose their alterations. They are no different than GWTS and those that use them. I wouldn't want a card that I knew was soaked, but I suspect that is why it is never revealed. That and they wouldn't want to have their cards graded Authentic by PSA or SGC.

[butchie_t]

Hmmm, sure seems like this was a drive by post just to shake the nest.

Butch Turner

[G1911]

Originally Posted by rats60

I don't see any difference. Soaking cards is altering and those that do it don't disclose their alterations. They are no different than GWTS and those that use them. I wouldn't want a card that I knew was soaked, but I suspect that is why it is never revealed. That and they wouldn't want to have their cards graded Authentic by PSA or SGC.

I don’t necessarily disagree in principle on soaking and don’t soak myself, but it’s certainly not the same thing as what Towle and his heirs do. There are clear differences, soaking is openly seen as acceptable by a majority of hobbyists. Towle’s operation is undeniable alteration and even most who do these things won’t deny it is.

Smoking a joint and selling 50 pounds of cocaine are both drug crimes, but they sure ain’t the same thing. Being able to bucket in the same category doesn’t make them “no different”.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

I don’t necessarily disagree in principle on soaking and don’t soak myself, but it’s certainly not the same thing as what Towle and his heirs do. There are clear differences, soaking is openly seen as acceptable by a majority of hobbyists. Towle’s operation is undeniable alteration and even most who do these things won’t deny it is.

Smoking a joint and selling 50 pounds of cocaine are both drug crimes, but they sure ain’t the same thing. Being able to bucket in the same category doesn’t make them “no different”.

I do not think that soaking is accepted by the majority of the hobby. Otherwise, those that do it would reveal that their cards were soaked. They keep it secret because they know it is wrong, while trying to convince others it isn't. Does the majority of the hobby accept "conserving" or is it just PWCC's customers?

You can say there are different degrees of altering cards, but they are still all altering cards. It is more like the difference between being a heroin dealer and selling prescription opiates. We can agree that what GWTS is doing is wrong, but that doesn't make other forms of card doctoring ok. GWTS started out as removing wax stains from the back of cards and many accepted it and tried to convince the hobby it was ok too.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by rats60

I do not think that soaking is accepted by the majority of the hobby...

I concur. Personally, I view soaking as alteration; it's a form of cleaning the card.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I concur. Personally, I view soaking as alteration; it's a form of cleaning the card.

I agree, but I think we are actually in the minority. When the topic was discussed in the prewar section of the board it was obvious that it's done all the time, and an accepted part of the hobby. Many of the high-grade prewar cards have been soaked out of scrapbooks that they were glued into back in the early years.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I concur. Personally, I view soaking as alteration; it's a form of cleaning the card.

It's fine to have an opinion, but in popular opinion dictates that is isnt cleaning a card. Nor is removing pencil with an eraser.


I guess anything can be used for evil instead of good. Dont hate the conservator hate the game

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

It's fine to have an opinion, but in popular opinion dictates that is isnt cleaning a card. Nor is removing pencil with an eraser.


I guess anything can be used for evil instead of good. Dont hate the conservator hate the game

If removing a pencil mark isn't cleaning a card, what would it be?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by rats60

I do not think that soaking is accepted by the majority of the hobby. Otherwise, those that do it would reveal that their cards were soaked. They keep it secret because they know it is wrong, while trying to convince others it isn't. Does the majority of the hobby accept "conserving" or is it just PWCC's customers?

You can say there are different degrees of altering cards, but they are still all altering cards. It is more like the difference between being a heroin dealer and selling prescription opiates. We can agree that what GWTS is doing is wrong, but that doesn't make other forms of card doctoring ok. GWTS started out as removing wax stains from the back of cards and many accepted it and tried to convince the hobby it was ok too.

I don't think this is true. People openly post about soaking all the time; there are threads here detailing how to do it (you won't find that for alterations that unanimously considered as such). It is not "kept secret" precisely because few seriously object to it.

PWCC's "conservation" arguments are a separate issue; they are trying to make altering okay, that's not an argument that X isn't really altering.

Yes, I can say there are different degrees of alteration because that is obviously true. Soaking as alteration is not a consensus opinion.

I said I don't really disagree that soaking is an alteration, and said already I am not for it and do not it. When did I argue some forms of altering are okay? Can you point me to this?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by rats60

I do not think that soaking is accepted by the majority of the hobby. Otherwise, those that do it would reveal that their cards were soaked. They keep it secret because they know it is wrong,

No, it's because it doesn't matter. Its water

[71buc]

A few years ago I acquired a number of common low number 52 Topps. The original owner had written his name on them in ballpoint. I sent three to GWTS to see what their work was like. I figured I had nothing to lose. The results were mixed and honestly far from impressive. One card was mutilated and the others had loss of gloss and discoloration of the borders. Dick was very friendly and proud of his process. He offered to do some more for me without charge because of the destroyed card. If I recall it was a Luke Easter. I declined. I gave or sold the cards to another board member who wanted examples of GWTS’s work so he could use them to identify cards that had been altered when searching for 52 Topps. I am honestly surprised they get through TPGs. I’m a neophyte when it comes to grading. Nonetheless it was pretty easy to look at the cards I sent them and identify that they were obviously altered.

[JollyElm]

837. High Horseshit
Someone who feels his views on any subject falling within the parameters of the card collecting world are the only ‘rightful’ sentiments regarding the matter.


Come on now, soaking is fine. It's only water, not a chemical alteration (here's where some know-it-all is probably going to say, "Actually, water is a chemical.").

Like other people, I use it to get the occasional schmutz off of a card here and there, and said card is in the same shape as it was before it took a dip. Nothing changed except the grime sitting on top of the gloss has been removed.

[Triton21]

Originally Posted by G1911

The business is centered on altering cards for people to then sell as if they weren’t restored. Done with a wink of legitimacy of course, they aren’t doing the fraud part themselves directly, but they know damn well what their service is for.

Many will heavily frown on people altering cards. Gone with the Stain isn’t soaking in water to remove cards from a scrapbook.

Just out of curiosity since you know our business and how we do things how is it that we're removing cards from scrapbooks can you shed some light on our process and what we use if we're not using water? Since you supposedly have the answer already why don't you share to the world what you know.

[campyfan39]

*grabs popcorn

Originally Posted by Triton21

Just out of curiosity since you know our business and how we do things how is it that we're removing cards from scrapbooks can you shed some light on our process and what we use if we're not using water? Since you supposedly have the answer already why don't you share to the world what you know.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Triton21

Just out of curiosity since you know our business and how we do things how is it that we're removing cards from scrapbooks can you shed some light on our process and what we use if we're not using water? Since you supposedly have the answer already why don't you share to the world what you know.

I am sure your firm has used water to soak an item out. What I am saying is that this is not all you do - using an example of something which is and has been considered benign by the general hobby for a very long time. Your own website, advertising and testimonials makes it extremely clear you are doing far more; that's what you are openly selling.

I stand by what I said. You cannot possibly not know that most of these cards are being worked on to get past graders and then sold without disclosure of the work done. This is the problem and criticism I am making (well, made, you are rather late). The wink and the nod is that your family doesn't commit the fraud, but provides the enabling the service. I have yet to see people selling cards with open and honest disclosure of your alterations and work, for some mysterious reason the minority popcorn gallery here consistently refuses to address.

[campyfan39]

I am very interested in the debate and the opinions and conversations. For clarity, I haven't even removed wax stains with panty hose. Pushing a corner down with my finger is the only thing I have ever personally done with a card.

Originally Posted by G1911

I am sure your firm has used water to soak an item out. What I am saying is that this is not all you do - using an example of something which is and has been considered benign by the general hobby for a very long time. Your own website, advertising and testimonials makes it extremely clear you are doing far more; that's what you are openly selling.

I stand by what I said. You cannot possibly not know that most of these cards are being worked on to get past graders and then sold without disclosure of the work done. This is the problem and criticism I am making (well, made, you are rather late). The wink and the nod is that your family doesn't commit the fraud, but provides the enabling the service. I have yet to see people selling cards with open and honest disclosure of your alterations and work, for some mysterious reason the minority popcorn gallery here consistently refuses to address.

[Triton21]

Originally Posted by G1911

The business is centered on altering cards for people to then sell as if they weren’t restored. Done with a wink of legitimacy of course, they aren’t doing the fraud part themselves directly, but they know damn well what their service is for.

Many will heavily frown on people altering cards. Gone with the Stain isn’t soaking in water to remove cards from a scrapbook.

By all means can you please educate us all and tell us exactly what it is that you think we use for removing cards from scrapbooks?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Triton21

By all means can you please educate us all and tell us exactly what it is that you think we use for removing cards from scrapbooks?

You already did this lol. See post 60.