Anyone who wonders what Evan Mathis is up to...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

He's trying to "unify the trading card industry"

Received this email today.

__________________________________________________ ______

Hi there!

CardSeer's initial mission is to unify the trading card industry by allowing users to search live and completed auctions from as many industry sites as possible. We are rolling out of beta and hard launching our listings search feature soon. You can see where we are now at app.cardseer.com

At no cost to you, we can feature your live and completed listings, all which link directly to you. If you approve, please reply to this email and CC xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. xxxx will then get us what we need to have you integrated quickly.

We will be scaling into other verticals but all your listings will still be searchable on CardSeer to start. We will also be rolling out AuctionSeer in the near future where we have live and completed auction data across all categories.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks for your time!

Evan
Founder, CardSeer
(m) 205-966-5115

[oldjudge]

Who is Evan Mathis?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who is Evan Mathis?

The collector's antithesis of John Galt

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who is Evan Mathis?

Former NFL player and controversial figure in the hobby. Lots of virtual ink on Net54 about him.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Former NFL player and controversial figure in the hobby. Lots of virtual ink on Net54 about him.

The amount of vintage uncut sheets he's acquired over the years should make some collectors who view their collections as investments a bit nervous. It's a crazy amount of uncut...that might not be uncut any longer...

[Lucas00]

This is the guy that made a card trimming tutorial correct?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who is Evan Mathis?

One of the all time greats in the hobby. He has exposed it for what it really is countless times. Weirdly very few seem to care and most carry on like he or the many many like him don't exist.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who is Evan Mathis?

Some chump who brags about trimming cards.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Some chump who brags about trimming cards.

+1.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

This is the guy that made a card trimming tutorial correct?

Correct

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

He's trying to "unify the trading card industry"

One industry under Evan, indivisible, with high grades and profits for all?

LOL

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Some chump who brags about trimming cards.

He didn't come across to me as being braggadocious. I interpreted it more as him showing everyone what goes on behind the curtain.

The vast majority of people still don't get it. They still think it's a few cards here and there and a handful of bad actors. But it's literally millions of cards. There is no such thing as a gem mint vintage card. The only way to get one is to make one. If you get a truly perfect pack pulled card with the nicest factory edges, corners, and centering you can get, the best it can grade is a 9, and realistically probably an 8 by today's standards. You'd have to pull a Mathis if you want a 10. And all these trimmed cards that pass through grading have shifted the grading scale accordingly. The graders see a "perfect" card and instead of flagging it as trimmed, they instead think that cards in that condition truly do exist out of the pack. So they adjust the scale accordingly, and the best untampered with cards can now no longer achieve mint or gem mint grades. Those are now reserved for cards that look perfect. Or too perfect rather.

Anyone who buys high grade vintage isn't collecting cards. They're collecting slabs. If you want to pay to play that game, then the hobby will provide what you seek. I don't know the extent to which he was/is involved in the trimming scandals and/or profiting from it in the past, but at least Mathis was willing to show you what's really behind that curtain so that we can all be better informed buyers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Whatever his motive, or personal ethics, Mathis shared some important truths about what goes on in this hobby.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whatever his motive, or personal ethics, Mathis shared some important truths about what goes on in this hobby.

No doubt, it was great information, seemed more a tutorial than an expose to me though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

No doubt, it was great information, seemed more a tutorial than an expose to me though.

You can find posts here years ago where Evan was acknowledging tons of cards are trimmed.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You can find posts here years ago where Evan was acknowledging tons of cards are trimmed.

Did he acknowledge he was trimming them? I don't know. Wasn't there a big blowout with him over at blowout also, I don't remember the details as I'm not a blowout guy.

[Tomi]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Did he acknowledge he was trimming them? I don't know. Wasn't there a big blowout with him over at blowout also, I don't remember the details as I'm not a blowout guy.

He put out a video showing how he trimmed cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Did he acknowledge he was trimming them? I don't know. Wasn't there a big blowout with him over at blowout also, I don't remember the details as I'm not a blowout guy.

I don't think he admitted it back then but it was sort of implicit in how matter of fact he was about it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

No doubt, it was great information, seemed more a tutorial than an expose to me though.

I think it was intended as a middle finger to PSA. They won't allow him to grade cards anymore, which he is bitter about (and which he expressly stated in an interview). In the early days of grading, everyone knew what was going on. PSA included. It was a good ol' boys club. It was all hush-hush. All those guys were slicing up cards. They knew it. They allowed it. It's only in recent years that some of this stuff has become more public and exposed. Now PSA wants to pretend like they weren't complicit early on, banning the customers upon whose backs they built their brand. Mathis asked Nat Turner to reinstate his submission privileges and promised not to send in trimmed cards. Of course, he was denied. In response, he showed Nat a bunch of cards in Nat's personal collection that either he himself trimmed or that his friends trimmed. Then he effectively said, "fine, you want to see how ignorant you guys are, here... here's 100x more trimmers than you had last week. Have fun with BODA." Meanwhile, he just submits through friends and bulk submitters instead, and PSA keeps up their facade of pretending like they can identify trimmed cards.

I've said this a few times, but this hobby desperately needs a "secret shopper" that submits known altered and unaltered cards to every TPG, reporting statistics on the percentage of Type I and Type II errors they make (e.g., how often they miss trimmed cards, and how often they falsely flag untrimmed cards). Would be very interesting to see those results.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whatever his motive, or personal ethics, Mathis shared some important truths about what goes on in this hobby.

You might say the Jose Canseco of cards...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

He didn't come across to me as being braggadocious. I interpreted it more as him showing everyone what goes on behind the curtain.

The vast majority of people still don't get it. They still think it's a few cards here and there and a handful of bad actors. But it's literally millions of cards. There is no such thing as a gem mint vintage card. The only way to get one is to make one. If you get a truly perfect pack pulled card with the nicest factory edges, corners, and centering you can get, the best it can grade is a 9, and realistically probably an 8 by today's standards. You'd have to pull a Mathis if you want a 10. And all these trimmed cards that pass through grading have shifted the grading scale accordingly. The graders see a "perfect" card and instead of flagging it as trimmed, they instead think that cards in that condition truly do exist out of the pack. So they adjust the scale accordingly, and the best untampered with cards can now no longer achieve mint or gem mint grades. Those are now reserved for cards that look perfect. Or too perfect rather.

Anyone who buys high grade vintage isn't collecting cards. They're collecting slabs. If you want to pay to play that game, then the hobby will provide what you seek. I don't know the extent to which he was/is involved in the trimming scandals and/or profiting from it in the past, but at least Mathis was willing to show you what's really behind that curtain so that we can all be better informed buyers.

While I agree with the sentiment, I get a lot of "old timer" collections in on consignment and still pull the occasional 9 on a vintage card that is beyond reproach. For instance I just got a 1968 Topps Hockey set in a 50 year old cigar box, got tons of 8's and a couple 9's including Gordie Howe. I've also gotten 9's on commons from 1955 and 1956 in the last year from similar sources. Now if you are talking pre war, I haven't personally submitted a 9, but wouldn't be surprised if there are a handful of legit ones out there in old collections.

Again I agree the majority of new high grades on vintage are suspect, but the problem is you can't just assume everything is bad, though I guess that's one way of protecting yourself.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think it was intended as a middle finger to PSA. They won't allow him to grade cards anymore, which he is bitter about (and which he expressly stated in an interview).

I wonder if PSA stopped allowing him to submit before or after his tiktok trimming tutorial video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOkVBJsLEjk

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Eric72

One industry under Evan, indivisible, with high grades and profits for all?

LOL

I'm not happy unless I can buy high and sell low.....I will leave all that profit making garbage for others.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

I wonder if PSA stopped allowing him to submit before or after his tiktok trimming tutorial video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOkVBJsLEjk

Pretty sure it was before.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I've said this a few times, but this hobby desperately needs a "secret shopper" that submits known altered and unaltered cards to every TPG, reporting statistics on the percentage of Type I and Type II errors they make (e.g., how often they miss trimmed cards, and how often they falsely flag untrimmed cards). Would be very interesting to see those results.

Substitute "depressing" for "interesting."

I'd also like to see a secret shopper buy up 100 PSA 10s from an insider and resubmit them raw.

[Exhibitman]

It was (is?) possible to get a ten out of the pack or set. I’ve had several of them over the years. Much as I dislike grading I can’t be so cynical as to say that every ten is doctored, at least not in the post 1980 arena.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

It was (is?) possible to get a ten out of the pack or set. I’ve had several of them over the years. Much as I dislike grading I can’t be so cynical as to say that every ten is doctored, at least not in the post 1980 arena.

It used to be possible. I would argue that it no longer is (or that it's nearly impossible rather, and that any 10 you might be lucky enough to get would almost certainly not regrade as a 10 again if cracked and resubmitted). Surely, there's a turning point where card manufacturing eventually rose to a level where they were capable of producing gem mint cards, and if you get some nice pack-fresh cards from those years, you can still get gem mint grades (as you said, post 1980ish - with a few exceptions like the Rickey Henderson RC). But for pre-war and the early Topps stuff, pretty much everything from the 50s and 60s, they just didn't make truly gem mint cards. You'd have to grade those on a curve to give them a 10. PSA used to do this. They used to give 9s and 10s to really nice-looking cards with flaws in the early days, but they no longer do. Every card has edge defects and corners that aren't perfectly sharp. Nowadays, the only way to get a "perfect" card is to "improve" one. PSA sees so many trimmed cards that they now think those are legit pack-pulled cards. And they've become the new standard by which all other cards are now measured against.

PSA has simply moved the goalposts too far from where they used to be. They had moved it by about a full grade prior to the pandemic when compared to the early days, and have moved it another full grade since then (give or take). If you haven't been submitting vintage cards for grading in the past year or two, then you may not have recognized it. But cards that used to be graded as 6s and even 7s are currently being put into 4 and 5 holders with extreme regularity. You can occasionally still get a fair grader, but on average, it's really gotten bad there. The correlation between grade distributions for each card and what year they were submitted is extremely high.

I've graded thousands of vintage cards over the past few years, and I keep meticulous records. Grading today is just a vastly different landscape than it used to be.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It used to be possible. I would argue that it no longer is (or that it's nearly impossible rather, and that any 10 you might be lucky enough to get would almost certainly not regrade as a 10 again if cracked and resubmitted). Surely, there's a turning point where card manufacturing eventually rose to a level where they were capable of producing gem mint cards, and if you get some nice pack-fresh cards from those years, you can still get gem mint grades (as you said, post 1980ish - with a few exceptions like the Rickey Henderson RC). But for pre-war and the early Topps stuff, pretty much everything from the 50s and 60s, they just didn't make truly gem mint cards. You'd have to grade those on a curve to give them a 10. PSA used to do this. They used to give 9s and 10s to really nice-looking cards with flaws in the early days, but they no longer do. Every card has edge defects and corners that aren't perfectly sharp. Nowadays, the only way to get a "perfect" card is to "improve" one. PSA sees so many trimmed cards that they now think those are legit pack-pulled cards. And they've become the new standard by which all other cards are now measured against.

PSA has simply moved the goalposts too far from where they used to be. They had moved it by about a full grade prior to the pandemic when compared to the early days, and have moved it another full grade since then (give or take). If you haven't been submitting vintage cards for grading in the past year or two, then you may not have recognized it. But cards that used to be graded as 6s and even 7s are currently being put into 4 and 5 holders with extreme regularity. You can occasionally still get a fair grader, but on average, it's really gotten bad there. The correlation between grade distributions for each card and what year they were submitted is extremely high.

I've graded thousands of vintage cards over the past few years, and I keep meticulous records. Grading today is just a vastly different landscape than it used to be.

This is Spot On Truth.

[Snowman]

I should also point out that SGC is doing a pretty solid job of maintaining consistent, fair, and accurate grades across the board for the most part. They've tightened up their standards a little bit as well since the early days, but at least they haven't moved their goalposts by two full grades like PSA has. And they actually utilize the half point grading system, unlike PSA. If your card is dead centered and free of some major defect, it's probably getting the half point bump 80-90% of the time at SGC and about 1-2% of the time at PSA. And that's not an exaggeration.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

I wonder if PSA stopped allowing him to submit before or after his tiktok trimming tutorial video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOkVBJsLEjk

It was well before that.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It used to be possible. I would argue that it no longer is (or that it's nearly impossible rather, and that any 10 you might be lucky enough to get would almost certainly not regrade as a 10 again if cracked and resubmitted). Surely, there's a turning point where card manufacturing eventually rose to a level where they were capable of producing gem mint cards, and if you get some nice pack-fresh cards from those years, you can still get gem mint grades (as you said, post 1980ish - with a few exceptions like the Rickey Henderson RC). But for pre-war and the early Topps stuff, pretty much everything from the 50s and 60s, they just didn't make truly gem mint cards. You'd have to grade those on a curve to give them a 10. PSA used to do this. They used to give 9s and 10s to really nice-looking cards with flaws in the early days, but they no longer do. Every card has edge defects and corners that aren't perfectly sharp. Nowadays, the only way to get a "perfect" card is to "improve" one. PSA sees so many trimmed cards that they now think those are legit pack-pulled cards. And they've become the new standard by which all other cards are now measured against.

PSA has simply moved the goalposts too far from where they used to be. They had moved it by about a full grade prior to the pandemic when compared to the early days, and have moved it another full grade since then (give or take). If you haven't been submitting vintage cards for grading in the past year or two, then you may not have recognized it. But cards that used to be graded as 6s and even 7s are currently being put into 4 and 5 holders with extreme regularity. You can occasionally still get a fair grader, but on average, it's really gotten bad there. The correlation between grade distributions for each card and what year they were submitted is extremely high.

I've graded thousands of vintage cards over the past few years, and I keep meticulous records. Grading today is just a vastly different landscape than it used to be.

I sadly can’t argue with this. I’d like to be able to but I don’t think I can.

[Section103]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

You might say the Jose Canseco of cards...

Man, if this isnt a perfect analogy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I should also point out that SGC is doing a pretty solid job of maintaining consistent, fair, and accurate grades across the board for the most part. They've tightened up their standards a little bit as well since the early days, but at least they haven't moved their goalposts by two full grades like PSA has. And they actually utilize the half point grading system, unlike PSA. If your card is dead centered and free of some major defect, it's probably getting the half point bump 80-90% of the time at SGC and about 1-2% of the time at PSA. And that's not an exaggeration.

Based on an admittedly small sample size, namely one sub of 35 or so cards, I disagree. Mine were all graded down 2 or more grades.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

PSA has simply moved the goalposts too far from where they used to be. They had moved it by about a full grade prior to the pandemic when compared to the early days, and have moved it another full grade since then (give or take). If you haven't been submitting vintage cards for grading in the past year or two, then you may not have recognized it. But cards that used to be graded as 6s and even 7s are currently being put into 4 and 5 holders with extreme regularity. You can occasionally still get a fair grader, but on average, it's really gotten bad there. The correlation between grade distributions for each card and what year they were submitted is extremely high.

I've graded thousands of vintage cards over the past few years, and I keep meticulous records. Grading today is just a vastly different landscape than it used to be.

I would bet my life the same is not true for their favored insiders.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would bet my life the same is not true for their favored insiders.

I'm no favored insider, but I will share that I have noticed my expensive submissions seem to grade more reasonably than my cheap submissions. My theory is the big stuff is going to the experienced graders who have been there a while, the cheap stuff is going to guys who only know shiny crap.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I'm no favored insider, but I will share that I have noticed my expensive submissions seem to grade more reasonably than my cheap submissions. My theory is the big stuff is going to the experienced graders who have been there a while, the cheap stuff is going to guys who only know shiny crap.

Yep, this is precisely my experience as well. All of my premium, walk-through, super express, etc. submissions are usually graded accurately, or at least fairly. They've tightened up a little from the early days, but it's more like one goalpost move than two. All of my cheap vintage bulk subs are the cards that are getting hammered. Those subs are being graded by the guys who truly have no idea what they're doing. I have two more bulk vintage subs at PSA right now that I know I'm going to regret sending them. My last two bulk subs were just cracked out immediately and are now headed off to SGC.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yep, this is precisely my experience as well. All of my premium, walk-through, super express, etc. submissions are usually graded accurately, or at least fairly. They've tightened up a little from the early days, but it's more like one goalpost move than two. All of my cheap vintage bulk subs are the cards that are getting hammered. Those subs are being graded by the guys who truly have no idea what they're doing. I have two more bulk vintage subs at PSA right now that I know I'm going to regret sending them. My last two bulk subs were just cracked out immediately and are now headed off to SGC.

+2

[Lobo Aullando]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My theory is the big stuff is going to the experienced graders who have been there a while, the cheap stuff is going to guys who only know shiny crap.

I have a theory that my eleven-decade old cards are getting docked for loss of gloss.

At least, I read their standards, which are stated objectively, and that's all I can come up with.

[williamsmanuel707]

Originally Posted by Lobo Aullando

I have a theory that my eleven-decade old cards are getting docked for loss of gloss.



At least, I read their standards, which are stated objectively, and that's all I can come up with.

Hmhm I think that is okay .

Sent from my Infinix X6516 using Tapatalk

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lobo Aullando

I have a theory that my eleven-decade old cards are getting docked for loss of gloss.

At least, I read their standards, which are stated objectively, and that's all I can come up with.

My theory is that they are not allowed to read their own standards. It is clearly forbidden.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

My theory is that they are not allowed to read their own standards. It is clearly forbidden.

My theory is more a troop of monkeys spinning wheels. Somedays you get a good wheel and somedays you don't.

[Exhibitman]

Here is the output for the new PSA AI-driven automated grading system:



SGC's version relies on unique proprietary software:



CGC went with a high output system:



And Beckett still does things with a human touch:

[Leon]

That gorilla is awesome. I think he had just got his cards back and felt like we do when we get them back 😏.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Here is the output for the new PSA AI-driven automated grading system:



SGC's version relies on unique proprietary software:



CGC went with a high output system:



And Beckett still does things with a human touch:

[Rhotchkiss]

VERY funny Adam.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Leon

That gorilla is awesome. I think he had just got his cards back and felt like we do when we get them back 😏.

Was thinking the same thing about that Gorilla, my kind of guy, we could be friends.

[todeen]

I scrolled past Adam's post at a 6yo birthday party. NSFW. hahahahahaha. Can't explain Ken Jeong's hand movement to young children without disapproving looks from their parent.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by todeen

I scrolled past Adam's post at a 6yo birthday party. NSFW. hahahahahaha. Can't explain Ken Jeong's hand movement to young children without disapproving looks from their parent.

Oh, they'll find out soon enough on their own.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by todeen

I scrolled past Adam's post at a 6yo birthday party. NSFW. hahahahahaha. Can't explain Ken Jeong's hand movement to young children without disapproving looks from their parent.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

he's rolling dice, obviously.