OT: Manning announces his retirement

[T205 GB]

Very sad day to hear that Peyton has decided to take a permanent vacation from the NFL.

Best wishes and been a blast watching you as a player!

[mickeymao34]

He is a class act. Old school and team first player and doesn't cheat. Players like him are definitely in the rare dept.

[Jobu]

Great player, perhaps the best QB ever. I do hope that he does fewer commercials in retirement though, that would make me very happy.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

He is a class act. Old school and team first player and doesn't cheat. Players like him are definitely in the rare dept.

class act? he has good pr hype machine, and good goons. good management team like bill cosby's.

[egri]

Will miss watching him and Brady go at it; that was always a good rivalry. Though I do agree with Jobu about the commercials.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Great player, perhaps the best QB ever. I do hope that he does fewer commercials in retirement though, that would make me very happy.

I am one to always differentiate best Qbs vs. best passers

Best QBs ever

1. Tom Brady (And I am a Bills fan)
2. Joe Montana
3. Peyton Manning
4. Otto Graham
5. Brett Favre

Best Passers

1. Peyton Manning
2. Dan Marino
3. Aaron Rodgers
4. Fran Tarkenton
5. Drew Brees

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sonny Jurgensen goes on my list of best passers. Incomparable. And I don't see how any QB list doesn't have Unitas.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sonny Jurgensen goes on my list of best passers. Incomparable. And I don't see how any QB list doesn't have Unitas.

Or John Elway, for that matter.

[Mdmtx]

HGH you taste so good...

[HRBAKER]

At least the Broncos won't have to cut him now.

Great career, great player, great ending.

Would have been painful to watch him play more.

[glynparson]

Best qb

1. Tom Brady
2. Joe Montana
3. John Elway
4. Peyton Manning
5. Johnny Unitas

Honourable mention to Roger Staubach and Troy Aikman

Best passers

1. Dan Marino
2. Dan Fouts
3. Brett Favre
4. Fran Tarkenton
5. Drew Brees

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sonny Jurgensen goes on my list of best passers. Incomparable. And I don't see how any QB list doesn't have Unitas.

Sonny maybe, he was an exquisite passer, but Unitas as great as he was has just been passed. He would be in the Top 10, but most of the great modern day passers do things that would make Unitas go from 6:00 to 12:00 real fast.

On a side note, another explanation could be because your old.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Honourable mention to Roger Staubach and Troy Aikman

Aikman was known for his accuracy but behind that line and with Emmitt, YOU could've qb'd those teams to victory.

[TUM301]

Hard to compare QB`s especially from different eras so the #`s are basically what they are. Been watching football since the late 60`s and will make my top 5 or 6 guys with a different criteria. I`ll say top 6 QB`s I take if I absolutely must win on Sunday. So here goes
1-Brady
2-Unitas
3-Montana
4-Elway
5-Staubach
6-Bradshaw

[rats60]

My top 5
1. Unitas
2. Manning
3. Montana
4. Graham
5. Brady

Unitas and Graham put up great numbers under rules that made passing much more difficult. I think they would hold their own with any modern QB given an equal footing.

[ksabet]

You people and your nostalgia.

If you think Unitas could hold Brady or Manning's jock straps you don't really know football.


I am happy though that no one mentioned the most overrated player in the history of football. Mr. all style no substance. Look at me I am in the HOF despite a losing record, throwing more INT;s than TDs and having a horrendous completion percentage. Dave Krieg was better a QB than Broadway Joe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ksabet

You people and your nostalgia.

If you think Unitas could hold Brady or Manning's jock straps you don't really know football.


I am happy though that no one mentioned the most overrated player in the history of football. Mr. all style no substance. Look at me I am in the HOF despite a losing record, throwing more INT;s than TDs and having a horrendous completion percentage. Dave Krieg was better a QB than Broadway Joe.

Many panels of experts over the recent years would disagree with you, as most rank Unitas anywhere from 1 to 3.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Many panels of experts over the recent years would disagree with you, as most rank Unitas anywhere from 1 to 3.

I realize that, but its a bit of revisionist history.


I argue the same thing with Babe Ruth. Does anyone honestly believe he was as good an athlete and ball player as Ken Griffey Jr.? But he's always numero uno on most lists.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ksabet

I realize that, but its a bit of revisionist history.


I argue the same thing with Babe Ruth. Does anyone honestly believe he was as good an athlete and ball player as Ken Griffey Jr.? But he's always numero uno on most lists.

So at what point did athletes evolve in baseball? Was it when DiMaggio succeeded Ruth? When Mantle and Mays succeeded DiMaggio? When Jackson and Schmidt succeeded Mantle and Mays? When Griffey succeeded them?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ksabet

I realize that, but its a bit of revisionist history.


I argue the same thing with Babe Ruth. Does anyone honestly believe he was as good an athlete and ball player as Ken Griffey Jr.? But he's always numero uno on most lists.

Do you not think that the great players of the 50s and 60s, Clemente, Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Rose, etc. would be superstars today?

You have Brady #1, but his stats are no better than Manning's, both regular season (96.4 to 96.5) and postseason (88.0 to 87.4) and that is before factoring Spygate and Deflategate.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So at what point did athletes evolve in baseball? Was it when DiMaggio succeeded Ruth? When Mantle and Mays succeeded DiMaggio? When Jackson and Schmidt succeeded Mantle and Mays? When Griffey succeeded them?

When the steroids got popular?


Ive always liked to look at the mile. People used to think that running a mile in under 4 minutes was an impossibility now its the norm. I do think that its similar in football. In baseball its tough to say because guys threw 100 mph back then as they do now.

I would not pretend to know as much about baseball as I do about football. So being on here as long as I have I would trust your opinion more than my own, so what are your thoughts?

[Mikehealer]

Best QB ever, Aaron Rodgers and it's really not even close.

And how can you have a list of best passers and not have Warren Moon somewhere. I can't think of anyone that threw a better pass.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by rats60

Do you not think that the great players of the 50s and 60s, Clemente, Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Rose, etc. would be superstars today?

You have Brady #1, but his stats are no better than Manning's, both regular season (96.4 to 96.5) and postseason (88.0 to 87.4) and that is before factoring Spygate and Deflategate.

I don't know in regards to baseball. Do I think those guys would be better than the average players...absolutely. Do I think that they could outplay the megastars of today, I would guess no, but I defer to the more knowledgeable.

Removing one year from his career, Brady had so much less to work with than any other QB in history and if not for two very fluky plays he'd have 6 rings right now. I believe Unitas would be a solid backup today. Theres no way he could stand up to how big, fast and strong defenses have become.

BTW I admit this is a silly argument because I am the first to argue that you can really only compare athletes to their contemporaries, very difficult to cross compare generations.

[drcy]

Not to suggest that there aren't some all-time great quarterbacks today, but the recent passing and receiving records are a product of the rules.

Any list that doesn't include Johnny Unitas, says the list maker goes by today's open-the-floodgate stats. A generation ago, when passing for 300 yards in a game was a huge day and 3000 in a season got you to the Pro Bowl, Johnny Unitas was universally ranked as the all time best. He was the Jim Brown no-brainer as best quarterback. Perhaps a quarterback, two or three have deservedly passed him since then (I've for years have considered "newbie" Peyton Manning one of the all-time best), but when Unitas' name doesn't even appear in a sea of Drew Breeses and Aaron Rogereres, I assume the list maker is a youngster wearing ESPN blinkers. It's also common, and a standard cognitive bias on the list of human cognitive biases, for all-time lists on any subject to be over populated with recent things. The list is made by a person or organization that views history and its details from its time, place and familiarity.

I have always argued that Brett Favre was the most valuable of his era because he played every game. Second, third or 5th best best is automatically more valuable in the game than number on the bench. Someone can perhaps rightfully argue that So-and-so was superior to Favre "when they were playing," but the "when they were playing" is a big disclaimer. Coupled with his on the field abilities (which people can argue over whether it was first, third or fifth), that Favre played every single game made him the most valuable. When the rubber hits the road, as they say.

[TUM301]

As stated above, throw the raw #`s out the window. Watching Matt Stafford and the like go for 5000/40 + TD`s in a season has made stats what they are. That`s why I use the 'have to win one game this Sunday" criteria for best ever. Also, and this from as big a Brady fan as there is, guys like Unitas, Tarkenton, Elway, Staubach etc. would be running for their lives and taking huge "legal" hits every week. Offense sells obviously, but put me in the 24-21 game with great plays being made on both sides of the ball versus the 45+ pass attempts from both QB`s with a periodic run sprinkled in. Talent is talent and success comes from many intangibles. The players from all the mentioned eras have both and I think would have achieved what they did playing any time.
Ruth, he`s a special case. When one player literally carries the american sports scene and bye the way out homers entire teams, he has to be put above everyone else. Great topic for discussion boys, and my 2 cents.

[wolf441]

While he probably doesn't belong on either the list of GOAT or best passers, Dan Fouts was a hell of a lot of fun to watch....

[Mdmtx]

Domes, more games, belief of passing selling tickets, tightened roughing the passer rules, stricter interference rules more athletic receivers have all contributed to the gaudy numbers posted by modern quarterbacks. I believe QB is one position that would be competitive over decades of time. The biggest asset to a QB is intelligence and decision making. Those skills haven't changed much. So you take manning and Brady. I will stick with moon, fouts , Marino, Starr, Unitas, staubach and Dawson.

I do understand that a couple of these guys benefitted from some of the "advances" pointed out in my first sentence. Give Marino or Fouts the dominating defense and they change the stat books forever

[drcy]

Dan Fouts' arm provided lots of entertainment and highlights and Dan Marino had an arm an a half. All you have to know about Dan Marino is he was slow but wasn't sacked for two years. Why? Because he had such a quick release. Marino makes my list as one of the all time best, and in his day was the best quarterback I'd seen with my own eyes.

Growing up a Green Bay Packers fan in Wisconsin, Lynn Dickey was our version of Dan Fouts. Call him "mini Dan Fouts" or "Dan Fouts Junior." Lots of entertainment value. Brett Favre was basically an improved version of Lynn Dickey for the Packers faithful, with the key quantitative difference being that Favre could run. Nearing the end of his long and battered career, I would say that my grandmother could run faster than Dickey.

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

class act? he has good pr hype machine, and good goons. good management team like bill cosby's.

Thanks for the childish remarks.


He's a great talent and a legend. He will be sorely missed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I recall the expert rap on Marino was that he was subpar in his ability to find his secondary receivers. This is perhaps Brady's greatest talent, and was Manning's. He certainly had a quick release and great arm.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

Thanks for the childish remarks.


He's a great talent and a legend. He will be sorely missed.

just because he's very good at football, doesn't mean he's a good person. i was only replying to the class act part...if you show this thread to the parents of the hgh source whom he sent "private investigators" to their house to harass and intimidate them a few months ago they wouldn't share that same opinion.

but yea tom brady or joe montana over peyton as best QB ever...and aaron rodgers is the best passer ever past or present. he may not have the best arm but his deft touch and pinpoint accuracy lets him make throws into small disappearing windows that only he can pull off. plus he thows very catchable spiraling balls (very underrated aspect of qb-ing)...he doesn't overpower you like a cam ball or dying ducks of manning. rodgers' always balanced with his little moves inside the pocket.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

if you show this thread to the parents of the hgh source whom he sent "private investigators" to their house to harass and intimidate them a few months ago they wouldn't share that same opinion.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/02/05/pey...era-hgh-source

Al-Jazeera news: A great source of news and information

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sonny Jurgensen goes on my list of best passers. Incomparable. And I don't see how any QB list doesn't have Unitas.

Agree with both points.

I think it's hard to rank players with one guy being a solid #1, then 2, then 3, etc., but I don't know how you'd rank anyone above Jurgensen as a pure passer. He was incredible. (Having Charley Taylor, Bobby Mitchell, and Jerry Smith didn't hurt, but his throwing and offensive management were great.) I'd perhaps put Marino and maybe Rodgers in the same class, but wouldn't say any of them is the clear cut best.

As for Unitas, I don't know how you compare across eras, but I think he's in the group of the top QBs ever.

And don't forget Otto Graham.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/02/05/pey...era-hgh-source

Al-Jazeera news: A great source of news and information

Actually, Al Jazeera has an excellent reputation.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Actually, Al Jazeera has an excellent reputation.

They do, but they really bungled this one.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Actually, Al Jazeera has an excellent reputation.

That 'excellent reputation' must explain why their (Al Jazeera America) ratings are super low and why they're shutting down next month. Gotcha!