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#1
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No one is a saint in this sport, almost all of the greats have done something wrong either on or off the field. Performance Enhancing Drugs have been apart of the game for a better portion of it's existence, and will continue to be apart of it, going forward.
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#2
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I stand by my previous post. Cheers. Butch Turner
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“Man proposes and God disposes.” U.S. Grant, July 1, 1885 Completed: 1969 - 2000 Topps Baseball Sets and Traded Sets. Senators and Frank Howard fan. I collect Topps baseball variations -- I can quit anytime I want to.....I DON'T WANT TO. |
#3
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Bonds, Sosa, et al
Bonds, Sosa, etc in the Hall or not? The debate that won't die, appearing in
multiple recent threads... I'll start by saying everyone gets an opinion. The problem is that someone's right to opinion, does not carry with it a right of legitimacy. Anyone who tries to equate caffeine pills with back room HGH injections and physically mutated players, is a person who is desperately trying to make his own bias work. Sosa was a horrid outfielder and even worse teammate, whose 15 minutes of "fame" is directly tied to PEDs and cork. He's a joke, a sideshow. I get the feeling that many posters somehow feel that their fandom, as it was tied to the fake home run race of 98 and fake HR totals after, has been cheapened. Those fans don't like it- they want their time, their energy, their passion to be worth something. Problem is you were wrong, it was a sham. So, to mitigate this let down, people justify the cheating because it somehow makes it easier to live with inside. I'm lucky that I was never a fan of these dudes or their teams- it would stink for sure. But the truth is they were sneaky, malicious, self serving at the expense of others- and TOTALLY outside MLB's bylaws. The argument for PED guys is pretzel logic. Trent King |
#4
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I think it is so sweet when people think their favorite player didn't cheat or only took caffeine(LOL) pills.
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#5
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Sosa
Ben North- we have agreed more than once in the past, I am disappointed
at your take... To put a bow on this, I'll reveal that I am an Ohio State football fan. There is a LOT to be proud of as an OSU fan. There are also, however, realities that I'm not proud of (Woody Hayes staying too long and going out ingloriously, Jim Tressel lying to NCAA, Urban Meyer's transgressions, etc). The difference is that I won't sugarcoat them... So, you can lose the snarky remark about how it's "sweet" how others think their favorites are somehow perfect. Your argument/logic is faulty. I didn't say it, didn't even imply it, and don't believe it. Odds are you are a McGwire/Bonds homer (yes, that was on purpose) and are butthurt that their undeniable (important!) cheats have been exposed. Don't care to read your exposition or deflections of the point. The steroid boys went WAY out of bounds, got caught with their pants down, and now fanboys are doing everything they can to normalize the behavior. Hard pass. Trent King |
#6
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To me it makes zero sense to be excluding Bonds and Clemens from the hall due to PED, it’s just a no brainer that they should be in regardless based on their accomplishments.
That said, I don’t think PED is irrelevant to Hall consideration in some cases. It’s really a question of how much weight is put on that factor, which I don’t think should be so high as to offset the accomplishments of a Barry Bonds. It seems it should really just be a major factor in those cases where you’ve got a borderline candidate, Where PED use could be a significant factor in excluding them. Like Jose Canseco, who without the PED use might have had a shot, I think it makes sense to take that as a factor that moves him solidly into the “no” column. Bonds and Clemens are just so far beyond that level though that it doesn’t make sense to be barring them though. It’s a tougher question for guys like Palmeiro and McGwire though, a fair bit lower on the achievement scale than Bonds/Clemens, but also high enough above a Canseco that they can’t be so easily dismissed.
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My blog about collecting cards in Japan: https://baseballcardsinjapan.blogspot.jp/ |
#7
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PED guys
seanofjapan- you are right that Bonds/Clemens certainly had HOF level
potential prior to PED use, when they were younger. The problem is that the use makes folks wonder if the PEDs put them over the top from "hall of very good" to "Hall of Fame". The blatant PED abuse causes voters to hesitate- for VERY good reason. A side issue is that, as also was mentioned earlier, the voting process itself is skewed. Sadly, I do think a number of players who were utterly dependent on PED use, will eventually make it due to the uneven nature of the voting process. I mean, Harold Baines somehow got in, right? It's probably a matter of time before "the clear and the cream" crowd slithers it's way in. Trent King |
#8
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No, none get in and should never get in. Those that either got caught or came forward and admitted their PED use should not even get a ballot sniff of any sort.
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“Man proposes and God disposes.” U.S. Grant, July 1, 1885 Completed: 1969 - 2000 Topps Baseball Sets and Traded Sets. Senators and Frank Howard fan. I collect Topps baseball variations -- I can quit anytime I want to.....I DON'T WANT TO. |
#9
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Reminds me of Shoeless Joe Jackson fans, they like him and won't admit its possible that he threw WS games.
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#10
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Pete Rose gambled on his team to win, no pass from me. Pick anyone from the Houston Astros a couple of years ago. They all should be banned. No pass from me. :shrug: B. T.
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“Man proposes and God disposes.” U.S. Grant, July 1, 1885 Completed: 1969 - 2000 Topps Baseball Sets and Traded Sets. Senators and Frank Howard fan. I collect Topps baseball variations -- I can quit anytime I want to.....I DON'T WANT TO. |
#11
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Rose, he supposedly never tried to throw a game and lose, which is really what the gambling rule was put in place to stop. But it was and still is the rule, and Rose knew it. So agree as well. Jackson my be a little more complicated. To this day, no one really knows exactly everything that occurred. There is evidence that Jackson didn't necessarily willingly agree to accept and keep the money, and supposedly the money primarily went to benefit a sick relative in need of surgery and care. His stats and play during the 1919 WS certainly seem to belie the argument that he was actively trying to throw the WS. And there was no specific gambling rule in place at that time for MLB as there is today. So Jackson was permanently banned by the retroactive application of a rule that didn't exist at the time of the alleged transgression. I'd love to see how that would have held up in today's courts, and how fast the lawsuits to stop it would have been filed. Not so sure Jackson was fairly treated by MLB back then, which had their own agenda they were keeping to at the time. |
#12
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Or when they decide steroids are a no-no, but amphetamines, sheep testosterone and who knows what else are A-OK.
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Signed 1953 Topps set: 264/274 (96.35 %) |
#13
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To Egri- I suppose I am one of the "they" you mention, who have "randomly" decided
that amphetamines , sheep testosterone, and apparently animal sacrifice (since you included "whatever else" as a possible enhancer) to get more hits, are somehow the same as PROVEN PED abuse... The problem with the "____" 50s superstar took stimulants" argument is that it is based on anecdotal or 2nd hand (or worse) memory/speculation/rumor. Was it even against MLB policy back then? (Serious question, I'm not privy to policy from 60+ years ago). The PED stuff, however, is NOT. It is within our memories and a matter of formalized MLB conclusion. We all watched Bonds' head grow larger and Sammy Sosa's bat give birth to cork- after his body shape changed completely. It's not rumor or 60 year old folk tale- it's provable and most certainly against MLB policy, which EVERY ONE of those guys knew... So, the extent to which permissive people like you will do all you can to justify the PED crowd- "everyone was doing it so it's okay", or "I heard from my uncle's best friend that ____ used to sniff jet fuel before games in 1960" is actually the amusing thing here. You keep on justifying and speculating, have at it- the PED crowd actually did what they have been accused of doing. Good luck with that argument! Trent King |
#14
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Signed 1953 Topps set: 264/274 (96.35 %) |
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