Help needed - Can anyone identify this player?

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Posted By: Richard

Can anyone please help me identify this player? I could not find his image on Horner's league composite.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Looks like Stahl.

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Posted By: Rhys

Looks to me like the seller of this item last week on ebay lied to me when they told me "The family came and decided to keep these items".

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Posted By: Shawn

I tried, but my offer was not high enough...

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Posted By: Rhys

Right after this auction was listed, about 15 minutes after, I e mailed the seller and asked if they would add a buy it now or consider an offer on the two photos. They agreed and he e mailed back with a figure. I agreed, paid him with paypal and he ended the auction. A few hours later I get an e mail that the consigners family had a change of heart and wished to keep the item in the family and that they had just come and picked the items up and that there was nothing they could do and it was out of their hands. I figured someone else had come in and undercut the deal, I just did not think it would show up on the foum so quick.


So needless to say, Great Pickup!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Do people ever honor deals anymore, or is that a thing of the past?

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Posted By: Anthony S.

He looks like Frank Arellanes to me.

edited to add --- which is impossible because Horner Cabinets came out in 1905 and Arellanes didn't join Boston until 1908. I'm going to stop talking now.

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Posted By: Richard

Sorry Rhys. I did not know that you had a deal in the works. I contacted the seller, gave my best price, the seller accepted and the deal was done. My apologies.

Edited to add, for clarification, that the seller ended the auction after he received my payment in full.

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Posted By: peter ullman

that's just life in the big city.

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Posted By: Rhys

Dont sweat it Richard. My post was not directed negatively toward you, but to come up with that elaborate of a lie and reneg on a payment that was already made to make a few hundred bucks (If that, my offer was fairly high) speaks volumes of the sellers integrity. I figured you did not know the seller had done so I dont blame you. I dont really care that much about the item anyways, I just have never had someone lie to me like that on a deal.

Rhys

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Awesome pickup!

I don't believe that's Stahl, Barry. But, I could be wrong.

What's throwing me a bit is the cap. Different variation. I'm thinking National League but I'll do some searching.

Greg

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Rhys, check your email please.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I checked both my 1904 and 1905 Spalding Guides and the closest player was clearly Stahl. But it was only an educated guess.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Here's a 1901 photo by Horner of Chick Stahl I found online. It's from the Boston Public Library collection ...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Nope- it's not Stahl.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

By some hushed accounts, Stahl was separated at birth from Ed Barrow and is uncle to Charlie DiGiovanna and grandfather to Brooke Shields.

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Posted By: leon

From my wife's view, comparing it to my '03 League Composite, it is Stahl....but what do women know? (j/k)...It does sort of look like him to me too...

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

I still say it's NOT either Jake or Chick STAHL, but will eat crow if proven wrong.

Although the cap is throwing me, my vote is for Moose Grishaw who played for the Americans. Here he is in 1904-05. That being said, now I REALLY love this cabinet.

Greg

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think Greg's got it.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

That's 100% him. Good job!

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Posted By: Richard

Yes! Looks like Greg has it. Thanks!

No wonder why he put on his cap. He looks like Matt Williams without his batting helmet on. :D

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Posted By: Richard

Greg,

Are you sure the guy in the middle of your picture is Moose Grimshaw? Here is a photo of Moose - I think he is the guy at the bottom right corner of your picture.



http://www.grimshaworigin.org/Webpages2/CharlesWileyGw.htm

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't think it's Grimshaw

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Posted By: dennis

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I think it's Kip Selbach.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Richard,

Good question. The guy in the bottom right of this picture is definitely Buck Freeman.

I have the 1904 composite. Freeman is on there (same picture as a matter of fact). Grimshaw is not on there which makes sense as I believe he came in for 1905. This composite comes from Red Sox Century. Here it is as it appears in the book.



Now, that being said, I did a search for Moose and came up with the same photo you showed.

Hmmmmmmmm I'll do some more research. At least we got the photo right, just need to back up the facts in Red Sox Century.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

I think Rhett nailed it. Looks like Red Sox Century was off. Good Job Dan as well!

Everyone know what happened to Charles Stahl by the way?

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Posted By: Richard

Yes, looks like Selbach. Thanks, Rhett!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Selbach

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Looks like they got quite a few names wrong in that book as Unglaub is not the player they identify him as, he is the guy in the lower right. Here are few of the guys (with later teams)

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Greg, Do you mean the Carbolic Acid drinker?

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Here's a copy of the original. I can't remember where I found this. Unfortunately, I can't make out the names on the bottom, but one would have to assume (?) the names lined up (?) when they put them in the book.



Here are the Sox in '06




Looks like Grimshaw in no. 12 lines up better

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Rhett - Bingo!

Sad state of events leading up to the suicide.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Personally, I prefer Mr. Pibb.

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Posted By: Steve

Great work! Awful stuff there about Stahl. Why would you off yourself with acid? -it has to be painful, albeit briefly. Too many other comfy options.

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Posted By: Shawn

There is a good image of Selbach in the W600 series, but I cannot find a large scan... Here is a postcard from the "Vintage Ball" site with Selbach?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Sweet postcard...haven't seen that one before.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

So is Selbach misidentified in that composite photo? I guess so.

Here's his autograph:

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Posted By: Shawn

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the photo of Selbach (with and with out) the hat is the SAME photo. The hat being added later. The crease along the T on his shirt is the same, the collar shadow is the same, the exposure of the letter T (what you can see of the T) is the same.

Am I just stating the obvious or did anybody else see this?

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Posted By: Shawn

The more I look, the more I am certain it is the same photo... I think I have read on Cyclebacks' site about Horner cabinets being modified? Still would like to here others thoughts?

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Posted By: leon

To me it doesn't look like the same photo. Aside from him being inverted his collar is different......I think there might have been different Horner cabinets of the same person but am not sure....I know I love the '03 League Composite I recently acquired and might even like it more than any one of my cards...

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Posted By: Shawn

Leon,

I am comparing the Oval picture (1904 composite) of Selbach several threads up with the cabinet photo. Its not inverted. I should have made myself more clear. Sorry

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Posted By: leon

In that case I certainly see your point.....

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Posted By: Steve

Shawn, Amazing observation. And I did agree with you, until I noticed the remnants of hat-head

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Shawn, I noticed that myself, but the more I looked I just couldn't tell. If Horner did add the hat in he did a heckuva job because usually stuff like that is pretty obvious.

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Posted By: Tom Hufford

Why is this player's identity such a mystery? If the seller says the player's family came back and didn't want to sell, they should certainly know who it was. Just ask them!

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Posted By: Steve

Tom, I believe the "family" story is BS

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

The addition of the hat to the same photo may explain why it seems foreign to me (like I mentioned earlier). It doesn't look like anything I've seen in photos of the period but I'll be the first to admit that there could have been variations.



Did I mention that that is one great cabinet? I'll sheepishly ask if you're keeping it????



Greg

and by the way.....there's nothing wrong with a little baldness in those composites

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Posted By: Shawn

I figured out where I had read about the Horner cabinets being modified... Its on the T207.com, sorry about that David. While its no "hat trick", you can see below that the team name has been removed from the uniform. I agree that it would be one heck of a job to put that hat on, but the dark spot on the left collar at his neck line seems to be exactly the same as the other. Not sure how you could accomplish that? Hell, I don't know...

Photo from T207.com where you can find more examples.