Very, very, interesting...

[David Atkatz]

I seem to recall a number of threads a few years back regarding restored cards being slabbed. I don't recall the names, but the guy was an expert in card doctoring, and he claimed that a great number of slabbed cards belonging to a major PSA collector and board member were almost certain to have been doctored.

[David Atkatz]

Some examples:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...doctored+cards

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...doctored+cards

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...doctored+cards

[insidethewrapper]

I have had baseballs signed in person in the 1960's and they have been out of the sunlight etc and many of the signatures have faded over the years. How in the heck can these older signatures still look so good ? They can't.

Also how can these older cards like 1933 Goudey's look mint. White borders, no nicked corners , no creases etc. They can't . In 1933 etc, are you telling me kids never touched these cards and not once in all these years a corner has been nicked ? That's impossible. How in the heck were they stored all those years before being slabbed .

Is there anyone on here that is old enough to remember collecting Goudey's as a kid ? My dad is 89 and he collected them and he laughs when he sees cards in that shape.

Cards are restored and auto's are faked if they look that good.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I have had baseballs signed in person in the 1960's and they have been out of the sunlight etc and many of the signatures have faded over the years. How in the heck can these older signatures still look so good ? They can't.

Cards are restored and auto's are faked if they look that good.

Nonsense. Here's an Isaac Newton signature from 1703. Looks pretty good.



This was written in 1864. Not bad, either.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Some examples:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...doctored+cards

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...doctored+cards

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...doctored+cards

David
I have been on this board longer than anyone except the person who started it. You can't show me a thread on the memorabilia side or card side that I haven't read. Except for one person I have more than 2x as many posts as anyone else. I agree with everything you said. I have had many hours of conversations with Dan Markel and was all set to testify in court when it was settled. I am not sure what else I can say except you haven't said anything I haven't already known for years and years. I know there are a ton of altered high grade cards in holders etc etc......I am a preacher of that issue. After one of our discussions on the board, several years ago, I had someone call me and his introduction was literally "Hi Leon, I am a card doctor and I want to let you know more about the things your board members are saying."

[David Atkatz]

I don't understand, Leon. First you ridicule me for suggesting that doctored/altered/restored cards get graded and slabbed, and now you say "Of course they do. I've known that forever."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I don't understand, Leon. First you ridicule me for suggesting that doctored/altered/restored cards get graded and slabbed, and now you say "Of course they do. I've known that forever."

First of all David, sorry if you think I was ridiculing you. That wasn't my intention. I am only having a friendly debate. What I have a problem with is when folks that don't know cards too well lump them all together. My whole thought is that the lower grade cards have far fewer altering problems and that is what I collect. If I collected only PSA 8 and above, then I wouldn't feel so good. If I collected autographs, and taking into account what I have read and seen on this board, I wouldn't feel so good either (unless I was an expert and could authenticate them myself) Sorry if I miss communicated.

[David Atkatz]

I agree with you, too, Leon. Perhaps we each misunderstood the other. My contention was not that low/mid grade slabbed cards have been altered, but rather that raw mid-grade cards are altered to produce high-grade cards, which are then slabbed.

[insidethewrapper]

David: Must have used better ink back then ( or are they forged), but my 1960's are faded and they have rarely seen the light of day. Maybe something else is destroying these signatures. But color movies from around the late '60's and '70's are also very faded and look terrible.

[David Atkatz]

They did use better ink back then. Museums and archives are full of 1000+ year old documents. as dark and bold as the day they were written.

[base_ball]

Originally Posted by Leon

After one of our discussions on the board, several years ago, I had someone call me and his introduction was literally "Hi Leon, I am a card doctor and I want to let you know more about the things your board members are saying."

Did this person tell you anything worth sharing with this board? Or with law enforcement?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by base_ball

Did this person tell you anything worth sharing with this board? Or with law enforcement?

I have shared everything I know with law enforcement. In different threads and posts I have also shared many details. I am not a card doctor so don't know it all. Most things are actually common sense and have been rehashed on the board over and over.

[Frozen in Time]

Let me start by saying that I don't really know anything about grading cards or determining whether or not a Ruth autograph is authentic. But, aside from the comparisons to known "real" autographs of Ruth, I would think that the surface properties of a vintage ball would change enough over a period of 70 or 80 years that a modern forgery might display some disparities in the interaction of the ink with the ball surface that could be examined and quantitated.

If this were true, some type of physical measurement (e.g., refractive index or absorption spectrum) would at least remove some of the subjectivity out of the process.

Does anyone know if this kind of approach has ever been used?

[David Atkatz]

As a physicist, Craig, I'm sure that 60+ years of ink-leather interaction must have some measurable effects. The key, of course, would be to measure them non-destructively.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

As a physicist, Craig, I'm sure that 60+ years of ink-leather interaction must have some measurable effects. The key, of course, would be to measure them non-destructively.

Along these lines, wouldn't fresh ink on 60 year old leather feather or spider-web to some degree?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I seem to recall a number of threads a few years back regarding restored cards being slabbed. I don't recall the names, but the guy was an expert in card doctoring, and he claimed that a great number of slabbed cards belonging to a major PSA collector and board member were almost certain to have been doctored.

I'm with you on this one. I could post a very personal example, but I think Leon would fly to Seattle and kick me in the butt.

I think the doctored cards in slabs are a despicable aspect of card-collecting, but I still don't think it is as rampant as forgeries. Trimmed cards in slabs might be - not sure. I still have to wonder if a trimmed card in a slab is as bad as a forged autograph with an LOA. I wouldn't think so.