rarest tobacco card?

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Posted By: steve

does anybody know just what the actual rarest tobacco card really is,is it honus wagner t206 or ty cobb with ty cobb back or is it someone else from another tobacco card set?

----edited to add more specific title. Thanks....Brian---

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Posted By: warshawlaw

1 of 1

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Posted By: Robert

Rarest and most expensive are totally different measures, there are a lot of cards that there are only one known example of in existence. Tango Eggs for example:

Bresnahan- 4 known
Cobb-1 known
Crawfod-4 known
Evers-1 known

And the same goes for many other sets. And we will never know the true value of these rare cards until the ownersdecides to sell them.

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Posted By: Jim Manos

To the best of my knowledge there is only 1 of each card maybe 2 ?? There are alot more rare cards than the Wagner. The Wagner is just the most expensive. It is called supply and demand. Victory's and the others mentioned above are very few in supply but they don't have the demand of a Wagner. The Doyle and Plank as you know are more scarce than the Wagner in the same set. I would say there are 100 examples of the T206 Wagner.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Supply and demand. It just takes two high rollers that really want the item to establish an inflated baseline value for a card.

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Posted By: Mike

I recently purchased a Jimmie Foxx card from Leon where there is only one known. There are many many cards where there is only one or possibly two known. It doesn't make them more desirable than some of the "BIG GUN" cards. Like many have said, it is supply and demand.

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Posted By: leon

By definition the rarest tobacco card (as that is what is asked) is the T231 Fans Cigarettes card of Baker. Of any ACC catalogued set it is the rarest. There is this card and a xerox of Bigby as the only known ones from the set (2 total and 1 physical card). By definition 1 known would be as rare as they come. As for other unique cards in sets there are hundreds....best regards

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Posted By: Tim S.

Not tobacco but what about this beauty....

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Posted By: Wesley

Very nice Tim!

There are a number of one of a kind or near one of a kind cards. Many of these cards, while expensive, are very underrated compared to cards like the T206 Wagner, T206 Plank and 1933 Goudey Lajoie.

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Jim,

Do you really think that there are more T206 Wagners than Planks known to exist?

I find that hard to believe. I would bet that there are more collectors who have a Plank, but no Wagner than vice-versa.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

They are two separate questions. I defy anyone out there to find me other examples of some of the exhibit cards listed on my site. I would be willing to bet you cannot. Doesn't make them expensive, merely rare. Edited to add: Damnit!

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

There are some t-cards which are the only representatives of the set which they belong to. Leon has one, Hal recently sold one, I believe. And therte may be others.

As such, the ownership of these cards prevents anyone else from completing a type set of t-cards.

In my estimation, these are the key rarities in t-cards.

Of course, the same exists for n-, r-, e-, w-,f-, etc. cards.

I would be interested in a list of these key cards. Wouldn't you?

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Posted By: fkw

1/1............ Unique and obviously as rare as they get, are the 1921 Herpolsheimer's cards, 69 different known, all 1/1.

Shortprints....... The cards that interest me the most are the shortprint cards from well known sets. The cards that were purposely printed in small numbers to keep the kids from completing the sets. One reason was so the kids would keep buying more and more cards to try to find that last card (R319 #106), another was if there was an offer for a prize for the complete set when turned into the company.

Examples are....

1933 Goudey #106 Lajoie
1923 V117 Maple Crispette #15 Stengel
1932 R328 US Caramel #16 Lindstrom
1926 Holland Ice Cream #16 Peckinpaugh
1933 R300 Geo. C. Miller #2 Andrews
1911 Zeenut Bohen (???)

I was lucky enough to find the only known Holland Ice Cream #16 Peckinpaugh card, before that the #16 card was always listed as "unknown" in checklists. Still one of my favorite hobby experiences.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

when you find a card that was uncatalogued, especially when it destroys a popular assumption about the set. I had that experience with a T220 Mecca card. I found the 26th silver bordered card--the set had been treated for ages as having only 25 silver bordered cards. To date I've still not seen another of the card I located, so it is a 1 of 1 as far as I know. Edited to add: I just got it back from SGC, encapsulated 20 fair, which is appropriate. I wanted it slabbed only to protect it.

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Posted By: JimB

Harry,
Though it is really speculation to some degree, I agree that there are probably not more T206 Wagners than Planks. My sense, just from observing the frequency with which they come to public auction is that there are probably a few more Planks than Wagners, but that the totals are probably close. I also doubt there are 100 of either one. My guess is that the number is probably closer to 50-60 for either one. If there were more than that, I think they would come up more frequently. Wagners seem to come up about once a year or less. That means if there are 50-60, less than 2% of Wagner owners are sellers in any given year. That sounds about right to me.
JimB

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Posted By: Jim Manos

There was study by Mastro's at the Cleveland National that they were aware of 68 Wagners. I know of others not on there list. I would say 80 to 100. But I do think there are more than the Plank T206 card. But I have no more evidence than that so Yes I can(rarely) be wrong. Kidding.

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Posted By: William Heitman

#106 Lajoie was printed up on a 25 card sheet. The other 24 cards on the sheet were the 1934 Goudey high numbers. The card also carried a 1934 copyright notice on its back. It seems that Goudey printed up the #106's in response to numerous complaints from, among others, Jefferson Burdick, about the lack of a #106 in the previous year's set. But interestingly, #106 is not in the style of either the 1933's or the 1934's. And Lajoie would be an anomaly in either set since the sets contain no players who had been out of baseball for so many years. The truth is that #106 is a 1934 Goudey one card set. And it is truly doubtful that any #106s ever saw the inside of a pack of gum.

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Posted By: fkw

Another interesting card is the 1933 Goudey #106 Leo Durocher card (proof). I find it as interesting as the Lajoie if not more.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think 50 to 60 Wagner cards underestimates what is out there. 80 to 120 seems more realistic to me. I actually know and have met 3 owners, have talked to another on the phone, and emailed with at least one more. And I don't think I'm all that networked into the hobby. It is difficult for me to believe that I know the whereabouts of 10% of the cards, if there really are only 50.

I do believe that some of the Wagners that change hands do so in a non-public manner. If one is auctioned off in public, then the seller will be needing to pay the taxes, and there's a record of the new owner having the card. When he dies one day, either there's a record that he sold it and pays (or owes) taxes, or it is still in his estate (where's the card) as a probatable (and taxable) asset. This drives some buyers and sellers to seek oneanother out in a more private setting, one that auctionwatchers would not see.

But I could be wrong about that.

I don't know what it is like to own one. I do know what it is like to hold one in the palm of your hand. I clearly recall the day, time, location, and circumstances. And I'm guessing that holding one is more satisfying than holding the slab that entombs one, but since I've never held a slabbed/graded one, I don't really know. If anyone has held one slabbed and raw, I'd like to hear which one was more memorable.

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Posted By: Aaron Seefeldt

Can't get more rare than 1 known:

t231 Baker
Tango Eggs Cobb
e125 Plank
e125 Merkle
e125 Baker
Henry Reccius H. Wagner
Vassar Sweaters Cobb
etc.

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Posted By: fkw

I have scans of 18 different T206 Wagners (including the proof). I just started saving them about a year ago.

If anyone wants to see them......

T206 Honus Wagners (18 different)

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Bill Heitman

Thanx for the clarification on the 1934 Goudey Lajoie card.

Frank K. W.

Great display gallery of the Wagner cards.

I have to augment your above 1933 Goudey post on this Thread. It was not only
the Lajoie card (#106) that was missing in the early series of Goudeys in 1933.
There were 21 other cards that were not available (from #97 to #142) early in '33.
So, kids were buying lots and lots of Goudeys, looking for 22 cards in the spring
and summer months of '33.

Cards #97, 98, 99, 128, 129, and 142 were printed on the 8th sheet of a 24-card
Goudey sheet (the first group of cards without the Big League adv. strip) and were
issued late in the Summer and early Fall.

And, 15 cards (#107 - 114 and #121 - 127) were finally issued after the 1933 World
Series. They were printed on the last (10th) sheet and the info on their backs reflect
events in the World Series between Washington and New York (NL) that year.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Great info, Ted, thanks.

What Goudey did with the Indian card set is even more manipulative... kids went nuts chasing those cards. We old kids go nuts today. Even now, to understand it, you have to have the information on the prinings spread out in front of you, half an hour to focus, and no phone calls or spousal interruptions.

And there is National Chicle's Sky Birds set, a set of first 44 cards then 144 cards, but there are only 108.

It is why the 2004 Topps Cracker Jack set has shortprints and variations... I kinda liked that, it is the only new thing I've fooled with. I long for the days when the cards came out in series, and the last couple of series at the end of the year were short printed a bit.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Frank

I totally agree with you about cards issued in Series.

My Grandson, Ron, when he was 9 years old was fascinated with my 1952 Topps set.
So, I acquired a 1952 Topps reprint set for him. He grew up in Maine and I would
send him these cards in series form as I recall collecting them as a kid. To start with
cards #1 - 80, and then #81 - 130, etc., etc....and finally, the Hi#s (#311 - 407) in
the Fall of that year.

This way he had an appreciation for how we acquired them back in 1952.

And let me tell you, he kept wondering when he was going to get the Mantle.

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Posted By: Scott Gross

Adam,
What's your 26th silver t220 ??

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

This is a "one of one". Was once mine.

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Posted By: Anonymous

FKW,
Do you have scans of Cobb/Cobbs? I used to own one, and I often wonder what became of it.

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Posted By: fkw

No, but maybe I'll start. I have a few Cobb/Cobb's that are pictured in some old auction catalogs.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Found it last year

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

How many Four Base Hits and/or Just So Chewing Tobacco cards
are known of each player.

There are number of cards in both sets where there are is one card
known and several examples when only two cards are known.

To my knowledge the Pittsburgh Kalamazoo Bat Cabinet Team Card
in unique and there are only two versions of the smaller card known.

Certainly Fans Cigarettes qualifies as the rarest 20th century issue..
though my recollection is tthat three different players have been discovered.

There is some discussion of relative rarity in the early volumes of Wharton-Tigar's
World Tobacco Index.

Finally, about 12 years ago Rob Lifson authored an article in Sports Collector's
Digest on the rarest known baseball cards.

It will be interesting to see if any new issues/cards are discovered.

Bruce

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Posted By: leon

With all due respect I think your recollection is probably wrong on the T231 Fans card(s). Everyone I have ever spoken too, including where I got the card (Lew), has said this is it. There is only the Xerox of Bigby besides the card I have. I wouldn't be awe struck if another surfaced but until I see one I won't believe it. It is in fact the rarest ACC catalogued card from the rarest ACC set. Please prove me wrong..... best regards

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Posted By: JimB

Frank,
The Wagner page is great. I would love to see a Cobb/Cobb back page too.
JimB

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Posted By: Andy Baran

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

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Posted By: Preece1

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Posted By: Anonymous

That's a beaut Hal. How long have you had that.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Tobacco companies have allways been tricky devils, haven't they. These things would have made me want to smoke too, and often.

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Posted By: JimB

mistake.

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Posted By: Brett

fkw cool pics !

Isn't funny that someone paid over a million dollars for a trimmed wagner ?