Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[packs]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

When you pay for something, you expect to get the service performed efficiently and with some expertise.

If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics.

Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

[Daveyc]

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

This description pretty much just told most people you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This description pretty much just told most people you have no idea what you’re talking about.

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

I wrote something similar earlier in this thread. The description at the MAB show is 100% accurate and true. Its data entry and they didn't watch the items being signed. You could bring a ball that wasn't signed at the show and get a sticker as long as that signer is in attendance.

I have been to the card show but haven't gone to the JSA table to witness that process. So I can't verify the second part. But based on what I see at the MAB table I would believe this.

I'll be at the induction this year like always. When I'm at the card show I'll check out the JSA table to see what happens.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

One note on the Sal Bando, and yes that should have been stopped BUT... the TV piece was done during a show where Bando was, ...signing.

Normal people would presume, and I get that can be dangerous, that any Bando auto they would see that weekend would be good. That is "gotcha" journalism and there are far better targets

Rich

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

First of all, I never said they authenticate everything. But I witnessed jimmie himself, and his "authentication" process. He passed everything I WITNESSED him look at, and only spent mere seconds on each item and very casually at that. They do pass EVERYTHING put in front of them at live signing events and they DO NOT witness the signings. He often would be conversing with the client as he was "authenticating" I saw at least one team ball he did this with. Wouldn't you agree that at the least the "authenticator" and client shouldn't be face to face during the process? I have watched this on more than one occasion.

As for their post signing "authentication" process, that is a joke and could be seen as indicative as to how seriously they take authentication in general. If Jimmie himself is this cavalier in public, imagine how that place runs behind closed doors.

A word of advice. Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you denigrate others. I have witnessed this process first hand, it appears you have not, but are placing blind faith in the process, probably because you have some skin in the game.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

First of all, I never said they authenticate everything. But I witnessed jimmie himself, and his "authentication" process. He passed everything I WITNESSED him look at, and only spent mere seconds on each item and very casually at that. They do pass EVERYTHING put in front of them at live signing events and they DO NOT witness the signings. He often would be conversing with the client as he was "authenticating" I saw at least one team ball he did this with. Wouldn't you agree that at the least the "authenticator" and client shouldn't be face to face during the process? I have watched this on more than one occasion.

As for their post signing "authentication" process, that is a joke and could be seen as indicative as to how seriously they take authentication in general. If Jimmie himself is this cavalier in public, imagine how that place runs behind closed doors.

A word of advice. Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you denigrate others. I have witnessed this process first hand, it appears you have not, but are placing blind faith in the process, probably because you have some skin in the game.

David -

I believe what you are saying because your description of the MAB show is 100% accurate. I’m sure (hopeful) a little more scrutiny goes into the process when items are sent in. But witnessing these types of things certainly cast doubts.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

First of all, I never said they authenticate everything. But I witnessed jimmie himself, and his "authentication" process. He passed everything I WITNESSED him look at, and only spent mere seconds on each item and very casually at that. They do pass EVERYTHING put in front of them at live signing events and they DO NOT witness the signings. He often would be conversing with the client as he was "authenticating" I saw at least one team ball he did this with. Wouldn't you agree that at the least the "authenticator" and client shouldn't be face to face during the process? I have watched this on more than one occasion.

As for their post signing "authentication" process, that is a joke and could be seen as indicative as to how seriously they take authentication in general. If Jimmie himself is this cavalier in public, imagine how that place runs behind closed doors.

A word of advice. Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you denigrate others. I have witnessed this process first hand, it appears you have not, but are placing blind faith in the process, probably because you have some skin in the game.

I do have a pretty good idea on how autographs are authenticated. I have been buying and selling them for over 30 years. Some take longer and more study and some take merely a glance. If an autograph expert (let's for fun just say it's an expert) only takes 2 seconds to look at an item, it doesn't mean it's not authentic. You are paying for that unbiased "let's also for fun say they're unbiased" authenticators opinion to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and more confident in purchasing the autograph.

If you bring a Babe Ruth ball and it's clearly not a run of the mill forgery, they are going to take much more time on it. They might even ask multiple people for their opinion as well before giving a letter. BTW, letters are signed in front of a notary public and sent out in the mail. Not "voila" or "poof" or whatever you described.

A person pays the authentication company for their opinion, despite many others opinions who think they should be libel for saying it's authentic. This is done to make the buyer feel confident in their purchase having another party say they also believe the item is authentic. OR the seller who is letting buyers know that there is this third party who also agrees with the sellers opinion of authenticity. Items that come with LOA's from PSA and JSA often, if not all times, fetch more at auction or direct sale than those without.

I know this because I do business with some of these authentication companies as I already described. I sell items and guarantee them to pass or they already come with the authentication. This is to increase my bottom line, no other reason. There are plenty of people who refuse to do business with these companies, but try to get top dollar without playing the TPA game nowadays. It doesn't work. If I get a letter and double my money, guess what, i'm getting the letter or COA.

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

Lastly, There are WAAAAAAYYYYYY more trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders than there are fake autographs that are authenticated by PSA and JSA. The card game is far worse than the auto game. People may argue with me all they want, but you will never convince me otherwise. Many, many full time dealers "work" on cards before they are sent off to the TPA. Most pass or pass the next time.

Bottom line, complain all you want about the TPA companies but they serve a purpose and command higher dollar results at the end of the day. I sell autographs and memorabilia to make money, the more the better for me an my family.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

Well, t least JSA is consistent in being fooled "sometimes".

I'm going to go out on a limb here - if someone (JSA, PSA or SGC) didn't cert the signatures, then there wouldn't have been near the amount of cash involved at the time the hammer hit the gavel.

Not saying that people shouldn't rely solely on certs, but that's where the appearance of validity begins. If someone or organization is getting fooled that often, then perhaps they need to re-evaluate their career path...

http://http://www.net54baseball.com/...1&d=1544487620

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

Have you read Mr. Nash's post on JSA mistakes?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Have you read Mr. Nash's post on JSA mistakes?

This is an interesting read! It's long, but worth it, imo.
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlo...nt?oid=2505680

I particularly liked the "Cheetah" certified sig story.

But there seems to be no ceiling to PSA and JSA's abilities. In 2010, a dealer submitted the "signature" of Cheetah, the chimpanzee purported to have appeared in the Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan serials of the 1930s. Despite the likelihood that they had no exemplars on file for primates, JSA deemed the scrawl authentic.

As it turns out, Cheetah was an imposter whose owner duped the public before a 2008 Washington Post article uncovered the truth: Weissmuller's chest-thumping co-star was long deceased.

"I don't remember the particulars of that," JSA's James Spence says of his endorsement. "I'm not prepared to answer that. I'd have to refresh my memory. I think it was done tongue in cheek."

JSA would have needed only to perform a cursory Google search to put the chimp's penmanship in context.

[irv]

Just how do places like Coaches Corner and others stay in business?
Millions a year on fake and forgeries but no one bats an eye?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCGxsGelS50

[painthistorian]

Unfortunately, Coaches Corner for years hid behind & utilized "TPG" services like STAT or Frangipani or Morales or their own certs, all of their business models had the same motives & the common premise. It was a limited but very decorative certificate, the actual wording hid behind the quoted caveat "in their expert opinion" or "to the best of their ability & knowledge" and collectors not as knowledgable would see a "bargain" and go for it with their pocketbooks. Most of their material was fake and most legit autograph dealers did speak out...This happened for years thru SCD and later through their on line premise and actually well "branded & advertised" name......it was obviously a diabolical way of taking novices and taking their money, many unfortunate collectors did not even know they were taken advantage of. In later years, the internet has helped reveal the obvious years of crap being sold but again there are non educated customers.

[jchcollins]

At least this one and the auto is not on the card itself...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-t206-H...t9mA:rk:1:pf:0

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

… You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information?...

If my mechanic quoted me $2,000 for brakes, and did not know how to properly spell “brakes”, you’re correct, that would indeed raise a red flag.

Originally Posted by irv

…As it turns out, Cheetah was an imposter whose owner duped the public before a 2008 Washington Post article uncovered the truth: Weissmuller's chest-thumping co-star was long deceased.

Cheetah’s dead???? Ooooooohhhhhhhh Nooooooooooooooo…