Quiz: Who is this player?

[vintagesportscollector]

Can you guess who the young 18 year old lad is sitting on the bottom right of this 1909 team portrait of the "Hennessey Clippers" in Oklahoma? This county team was his first baseball team before going on to have a renowned and infamous career in the Majors.

image.jpg

[Lordstan]

Sorry. I can't help myself.
It has to be either Joe Jackson or Charles Comiskey

[vintagesportscollector]

Hint: it's not Joe Jackson or Comiskey...I was going to say that up front I'll drop more hints if someone doesn't guess today.

[cmoore330]

Now I can't see your image! I would like to though since I am only 30 minutes from Hennessey. One of my best friends is the high school principal, too.

[cmoore330]

I'm guessing it is "high and tight"?

[Teamgluck]

Eddie Cicotte?

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by cmoore330

I'm guessing it is "high and tight"?

Color me impressed.....Casey you know it, but that's not fair since your are local and know the local legends...but for full credit you need to post a name.

[nolemmings]

Carl Mays

[vintagesportscollector]

Bingo!...I am working with the Chisolhm Trail Museum in OK, on an exhibit they are creating on Carl Mays, as their country team was the first baseball team he played on. I am helping with the re-creation of the local teams uniform. A local historical clothier, who is on the board of directors for the museum, will be recreating the uniform as authentically as possible.

They will also recreate the 1920 New York Yankee's uniform that he would have been wearing when he hit Chapman.

This 1909/10 photograph is an original copy in their museum collections. The photograph was featured in a story from the "Hennessey Clipper" newspaper prior to the 1910 baseball season, as a preview for the upcoming year. It is the only known photograph of the original "Hennessey Clipper" team wearing their uniforms. There was a photograph of the team prior to the 1909 season, however, they were wearing uniforms with Fire Department logos on the front.

If anyone knows additional information, which would be of benefit to the museum and their future exhibit, they would greatly appreciate any assistance.

[bmarlowe1]

Not Mays - not even close, and yes, the ear shapes don't match, nor does anything else.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Not Mays - not even close.

I was waiting for someone to possibly question that. It is Mays, according to the museum. They say he was on the team. I wouldn't say it's not even close. Here is a picture in which I see similar features - but I am not 100% convinced either. It is close. I am focused on the uni, but if others feel the same that it is not Mays I will certainly pass that along to the museum.

image.jpg

[vintagesportscollector]

image.jpg

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Not Mays - not even close, and yes, the ear shapes don't match, nor does anything else.

Mark, I posted after you added pictures. Fair comparison - you make a good point. I am not invested one way or other, but will pass along to the museum what the group thinks. Other thoughts? According to the museum the newspaper article lists Mays on the team with this Photo.

[Lordstan]

Now that I see the pictures next to each other, I don't think the nose matches at all. Mays appears to have a big mid bridge bump and a rather bulbous tip. The person in the museum's photo has no bump and the tip appears very pointed.

[bmarlowe1]

>> Here is a picture in which I see similar features

Any feature similarities you may see (and I have no idea what you might be refering to) don't matter. We can see the ear in your photo clearly enough to know that the outer ear shapes don't match - therefore he is not Mays.

Also, the nose is grossly different - Mays has a huge turned down beak (which he had in younger and older photos), the guy in your photo has a pretty nice straight nose.

This is like saying a photo of Andy Petit is Roger Clemens - it really is ludicrous. I will contact the museum.

[bgar3]

It does not look like Mays to me, but even more important, Mark is the expert. Luckily, he has weighed in and spared the museum from a bad id.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

>> Here is a picture in which I see similar features

Any feature similarities you may see (and I have no idea what you might be refering to) don't matter. We can see the ear in your photo clearly enough to know that the outer ear shapes don't match - therefore he is not Mays.

Also, the nose is grossly different - Mays has a huge turned down beak (which he had in younger and older photos), the guy in your photo has a pretty nice straight nose.

This is like saying a photo of Andy Petit is Roger Clemens - it really is ludicrous. I will contact the museum.

Thanks Mark. I am not anywhere close to an expert, and won't even begin to question you. You are the expert and I trust that. I see some different things not as clearly as you, but my photo match experience is close to nil. Ok if I give the museum your contact info? As I said I don't care one way or the other, and the museum asked me to share this photo to get additional help. I don't think this is what they were expecting, but very valuable for them to know. That is why i told them i would share with a group of experts. They can figure out the mystery they have if they have other evidence that Mays was on this team or in this photo.

[nolemmings]

I didn't think it looked like Mays either, but chose him given the hints of "infamous" and "high and tight", and I knew it wasn't one of the Black Sox.

[bmarlowe1]

Joe - You can just PM me the museum contact info (you can give them a heads up if you want). I have worked with several museums in the past.

Thx

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Joe - You can just PM me the museum contact info (you can give them a heads up if you want). I have worked with several museums in the past.

Thx

Will do. Thanks. I am sure they will appreciate your expertise. They have only good intent - it's not like other schmucks that have come onto this site trying to claim things in photos and then sell them on ebay for outrageous prices. No one is trying to sell this photo, and I hope this doesn't detract from their exhibit, or they have other evidence or pictures, because they are extremely excited about the exhibit they are building.

[vintagesportscollector]

Just exchanged emails with the museum director who clarified their view on the photo, as well as their own doubt - which they didn't express before. The so what is they are not surprised, and this doesn't seem to curb their enthusiasm at all, so hopefully all is good. They do welcome any and all Info on Mays...

"We have newspaper articles written in 1909 about the team and about Carl Mays from the Hennessey Clipper. I will email those links via the Oklahoma Historical Society's gateway research website. There is also an article from a 1929 letter from Mays when he was playing later in his career to a friend from "Turkey Creek", which is the Hennessey area. It is not surprising he is probably not in this photograph, as he was brought in towards the in of the 1909 season to pitch for the "Sluggers" according to the paper. Regardless, I do know that the photograph does reveal several of the teammates he would have played with, and that the photograph is of the "Hennessey Sluggers." I would love to speak with anyone who knows more about Carl Mays. Feel free to contact me "

[vintagesportscollector]

For those intererested here is some great stuff..and as the museum director noted below, kind of exciting. Three cool newspaper writeup of Mays games on Hennessey from 1909. A lot is written of Mays in these articles.

http://gateway.okhistory.org/ark:/67531/metadc105674/m1/1/zoom/?q="Hennessey Sluggers"

http://gateway.okhistory.org/ark:/67531/metadc105671/m1/1/zoom/?q="Hennessey Sluggers"

http://gateway.okhistory.org/ark:/67531/metadc105673/m1/1/?q="Hennessey Sluggers"

http://gateway.okhistory.org/ark:/67531/metadc102199/m1/1/zoom/?q="Hennessey Clipper"

I do find it ironic how he mentions his ears...I guess ears are in the "eyes" of the beholder.....

"I realize the gentlemen we thought might be Mays doesn't look a lot like later photographs. I am not photo expert by any means. However, he would have been very young in 1909 (18 years of age). The only reason we thought it might possibly be Mays was that his ear structure looked similar to other photographs. He might have left for the minors shortly after the 1909 season ended, and this very well could have been taken later. Anyway, I've attached a few links from the "Hennessey Clipper" detailing Mays as the pitcher (just click on the links and it should take you to the article. You will need to click on the article and then zoom in to see the print). The last link is later, which mentions Mays as a Yankee, who had played for the Hennessey team about 12 years earlier and was well known in that vicinity. There are several additional articles I did not attach, but can be found via the Gateway link I sent, which detail May's relation to Hennessey. Thank you again. This is very exciting"