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  #1  
Old 04-03-2017, 04:55 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.

Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-12-2019 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Updated INDEX.
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  #2  
Old 04-03-2017, 05:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference / Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



all six are SOVEREIGN cards


Nov 2006, Barry Sloate informed me that he had acquired a T206 collection including 300 cards with Sovereign backs. These cards would be in his November auction. I won
262 of these cards (including 38 HOFers). Having 60 - Sovereign cards to start with, I was determined to complete this set. I do not need the "Big 6", nor Lundgren, nor the
Southern Leaguers (48 cards), I thought this project would be easy. However, early in this game I realized that the big challenge would be to figure out which subjects were
Not Printed with Sovereign backs.
By the Fall of 2007, I had completed this Sovereign set....and, I was confident that I had figured out which T206's were not printed with Sovereign backs. And, I am happy
to say that my list of No-Prints have withstood the test of time.
A complete SOVEREIGN-only set comprises of 402 different subjects. And, if you are really "gung ho"....go for a master SOVEREIGN set comprising of 476 cards

During the Sovereign press runs, American Litho (ALC) introduced a new feature into the T206's....the 350/460 series. ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects **.
And, printed them with Sovereign 460 backs during the printing of the 460-only series (46 subjects).
Note that the Sovereign 460 versions of these 6 subjects are considerably tougher to find relative to the regular 46 subjects in the 460-only series.

Shown here are these 6 subjects......

.
.
............




The 350/460 story continues in the following post with a complete array display of the 66 subjects (with Sovereign 350 backs) which ALC designated for the 350/460 series.


** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in
the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 06-28-2017 at 10:06 PM. Reason: Update scans.
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  #3  
Old 04-03-2017, 07:40 PM
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Leon Leon is offline
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Nicely done, Ted. Thanks for sharing!!
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  #4  
Old 04-04-2017, 07:28 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series

* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *


<<>>


Continuing from post #2, illustrated here are the 66 subjects that American Lithographic selected for the 350/460 series. American Litho printed
the backs of these 66 cards using an apple green colored ink (instead of the deep green seen on the backs of all the other SOVEREIGN cards).
For more info on this topic, check-out this thread posted in 2009....Sovereign phantom "350/460" series
Here is my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement of these 66 subjects (Super-Prints are double-printed **)



v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v









The next two posts will get more into the "nitty-gritty" of this mystifying 350/460 series......especially regarding their front/back combos.


** Note
I show the super-prints Double-Printed (D-P) on this sheet, since several large T206 surveys have indicated that the 6 super-prints were D-P.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-19-2017 at 04:35 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #5  
Old 04-05-2017, 10:59 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference.....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


A picture is worth 1000 words......so, here are the 22 tobacco advertisement backs that are available on the T206 Subjects in the 350/460 Series......


460-type backs




. .

............. Factory #42 .............



350-type backs




Assorted backs





Stay tuned for the "rhyme-n-reason" of the mutually-exclusive front/back combos found with the 460-type backs in this 350/460 series.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-11-2018 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #6  
Old 04-06-2017, 01:41 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Nicely done, Ted. Thanks for sharing!!

Thanks, I really appreciate your compliments, Leon.

TED Z
.
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  #7  
Old 04-06-2017, 02:55 PM
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ullmandds ullmandds is offline
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Very cool Ted...It's awesome to see so many of your t's in a bunch! This is the best I can do for now...a few odd remaining t's!
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File Type: jpg IMG_1031.jpg (78.8 KB, 6157 views)
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  #8  
Old 04-06-2017, 10:24 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects

Now, continuing our study of the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series.....although 22 T-brands were illustrated in the previous post, not all the 63 subjects were printed
with the rare AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, BROAD LEAF 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT backs.
A theory was first presented in a thread posted April 2010 which hypothesized that the AB 460 and UZIT cards were printed as pairs. Also, BL 460 and red HINDU cards
were printed as pairs. Furthermore, these two sets of pairs are mutually exclusive. Refer to.... 350/460 mutually-exclusive cards ....post #14.

I've constructed the following scans of the 350/460 series subjects in order to illustrate how the mutually-exclusive 460-type (rare) backs in this series resulted from
American Lithographic separating these 63 subjects into two print groups.



Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

. . .
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A

.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B




Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).

.


Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42.. red HINDU.. BROAD LEAF 460



Refer to post #5 in this thread which displays a T206 collection of 33 different "scrap subjects" coinciding with the cards of Group A shown above......
....why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive



Stay tuned for the next Reference or Reflections. New topic....I'll surprise you ?


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 04-13-2019 at 07:35 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #9  
Old 04-07-2017, 07:08 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Very cool Ted...It's awesome to see so many of your t's in a bunch! This is the best I can do for now...a few odd remaining t's!

Hey Pete

Thanks for the "awesome"....it's one of my favorite adjectives.

Judging from your scan, we both collect similar pieces of colorful cardboard (besides BB cards).

Take care......hope to see you at the National this summer.


TED Z
.
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  #10  
Old 04-09-2017, 01:21 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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TedZ wrote:

** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".

Lastly, Ted, thanks for this acknowledgement. The existence of the six "superprints" was probably the most interesting of the discoveries revealed in my first (2006) version of Inside T206.

Last edited by sreader3; 04-09-2017 at 01:25 PM.
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  #11  
Old 04-10-2017, 10:30 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Hi Scot

Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.

Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.

Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.

Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").


TED Z
.
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2017, 12:01 PM
parkerj33 parkerj33 is offline
Jim Parker
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Ted,
Confused...i post #2 you say "ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects.."
then in post #4 you state there are "66" subjects in 350/460 series...then further on in post #8 you mention "63" subjects. maybe i am misreading subtle differences in each context?

Good stuff, thanks for compiling in one thread.
jim
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  #13  
Old 04-10-2017, 12:29 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parkerj33 View Post
Ted,
Confused...i post #2 you say "ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects.."
then in post #4 you state there are "66" subjects in 350/460 series...then further on in post #8 you mention "63" subjects. maybe i am misreading subtle differences in each context?

Good stuff, thanks for compiling in one thread.
jim

Hi Jim

The array of 66 subjects (in post #4) includes Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls, and Bob Rhoades (who initially were intended to be continued into the 350/460 series).
However, the Major League careers of these 3 guys ended prior to American Litho printing the 460-type backs. Thus, the 350/460 series consists of 63 subjects.


TED Z
.
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  #14  
Old 04-10-2017, 06:47 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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Ted,

Great story. Joe was a character. We had some good laughs on the phone before he passed. He was super friendly one-on-one. And, he had the ONLY copy of Schulte (Front View) Piedmont 350 in existence! (As you know he also had the Doyle Error). For years, Joe kept insisting on our calls that he had a copy of the then unconfirmed Schulte (Front View) with Piedmont 350 but could not figure out how to send me a scan! I believed he had the card, but was blown-away that he didn't have a scanner (or at least couldn't figure out how to use it). He was old school -- which is actually endearing considering we are talking about old baseball cards that are cherished across generations.

Good stuff.

Scot

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Scot

Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.

Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.

Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.

Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").


TED Z
.

Last edited by sreader3; 04-10-2017 at 07:02 PM.
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2017, 07:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference.....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




Expanding on the A-B-C-D sub-set, Darren (posts #65 & 73) of T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection" added the 1910 COUPON cards, whose backs are
identical to the stylized design of the A-B-C-D cards. Providing us proof that the timeline of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set was issued Spring / Summer of 1910.


The blue Chase is my favorite T206 subject. If a DRUM card of Mr. Chase ever shows up, I might have a chance to complete this A - B - C - C - D sub-set.






TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 11-23-2018 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:27 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default 1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set


* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





There has been much controversy on this forum as to whether the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards belong to the T206 "family". And, much of this is due to mis-information.
So, here are the facts.... as Detective Sergeant Joe Friday (from the TV series, Dragnet) would ask...." Just the facts, man ? "......

The Macon (Georgia) Telegraph newspaper was running advertisements introducing ATC's COUPON cigarette brand in the Spring of 1910. And, as shown, in the prior post
here, the 1910 COUPON cards' backs were printed with the same stylized design as the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM cards (which we
know were issued in the Spring / Summer of 1910). The group of 48 subjects (Major Leaguers) were selected from an early print run of the 350-only series (illustrated in
the 48-card array shown here). And, the Southern Association subjects (20 cards) were printed from the 48 - Southern Leaguers in the T206 set. Furthermore, unlike the
T213-2 and T213-3 cards (with blue captions), the 1910 COUPON cards' captions were printed with Brown ink.

The minor exception with the 1910 COUPON (with respect to the T206 cards) is that American Litho printed the 1910 COUPON cards on "thinner" cardboard. This was done
simply because these cards were not intended to serve as Cigarette pack " stiffeners ". The initial marketing of the COUPON cigarette brand was not in packs, instead these
cigarettes were packaged in the standard cigarette cartons (11" x 3" x 2") of that era, which were labelled " COUPON Cigarettes ", and contained 100's of cigarettes. The
1910 Coupon cards were placed inside these cartons, or "spot-glued" on the outside of the carton (indicative of the red Cobb's paper loss on its back, as shown below).

Jefferson Burdick didn't have the benefit of the "Internet" when he included the 1910 COUPON set in with his classification of the T213-2 and T213-3 sets which were cards
issued 1914 - 1915 (his stated timeline). It's my opinion that Burdick would have included the T213-1 in his classification of the T206's, had he known what we now know.
Furthermore, we now know that the T213-2 and T213-3 cards were actually issued 1914 - 1919.

Click on this thread for the 1910 COUPON checklist.... FYI....1910 COUPON checklist (T213-1)


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects







The Six Super Prints are seldom seen with the 1910 COUPON advertisement.

.



.













TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 12-23-2018 at 05:23 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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Old 04-17-2017, 06:59 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 Reference.....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





Jim Blumenthal started the "ball rolling" regarding the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card when he posted this thread in T2006...... Senator Russel's tobacco card collection......
Jim never waivered in his belief that this Ty Cobb card should have been classified as a T206.

Seven years ago this month, Jon Canfield posted this Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb thread that sparked some spirited discussion......including information revealing that the Ty Cobb
Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco was marketed in the Spring of 1910...... What We Have Learned About Ty Cobbs With a Ty Cobb Back
Check-it-out






TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 10-13-2017 at 03:49 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #18  
Old 04-19-2017, 08:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 Reference.....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





This project has been a work in progress on Net54 since 2005. Additional inputs (or corrections) to these checklists are greatly appreciated.

In Jan 2011, for ease of access, I consolidated into a single thread the T206 front/back surveys which were previously conducted on Net54.
Furthermore, included is the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) and RED CROSS (T215-1) checklists, as these sets fall under the "T206 rubric" in that
they are White-Bordered, Brown-Captioned Tobacco cards printed and issued by American Lithographic within the 1909 - 1911 timeline.

And included is the Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back (issued Spring/Summer 1910), since it also conforms to the above stated T206 rubric.







T206 confirmed front/back surveys with respect to T-brand.

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 & 460

BROAD LEAF 350 & 460

BROAD LEAF 460

CAROLINA BRIGHTS

CYCLE 350 & 460

DRUM

EL PRINCIPE de GALES

Brown HINDU

Red HINDU

LENOX

OLD MILL

PIEDMONT

POLAR BEAR

SOVEREIGN

SWEET CAPORAL

TOLSTOI

UZIT


1910 COUPON (T213-1)

1910-1912 RED CROSS (T215-1)

Ty Cobb / "TY COBB" Tobacco



TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 06-28-2017 at 11:35 PM.
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  #19  
Old 02-10-2018, 08:56 PM
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Howie Camnitz?

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Old 02-10-2018, 09:15 PM
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Joe McGinnity?
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Old 02-10-2018, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
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Joe McGinnity?
Rube Marquard?
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Old 02-10-2018, 10:15 PM
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Larry Corcoran had 74!!! Of course not a t206

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Old 02-11-2018, 05:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE, Reflections, Theory's...TRIVIA QUIZ #2...1st correct answer wins T206

OK guys,

So far Joe McGinnity leads the pack. At this point, Nat (post # 341) appears to be the winner of this quiz.

56......Joe McGinnity (1899-1900)
52......Vic Willis (1898-1899)
48......Russ Ford (1910-1911)
37......Eddie Plank (1901-1902)
37......Ed Reulbach (1905-1906)
36......Cy Young (1890-1891)

We'll see if there are any more responses by 9 PM (EST) tonite. Then, I will declare the winner.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this quiz.


TED Z
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Old 02-11-2018, 08:00 PM
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Default T206 REFERENCE, Reflections, Theory's...TRIVIA QUIZ #2...1st correct answer wins T206

Quote:
Originally Posted by nat View Post
Joe McGinnity?

Nat you are the Trivia King tonite.

Email me and we'll talk about the T206 card that I'm going to send you..... tedzan11@comcast.net



TED Z
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  #25  
Old 02-14-2018, 10:03 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE, Reflections, Theory's....TRIVIA QUIZ...1st correct answer wins a T206

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkFan70 View Post
Ted-

Is it Ted Breitenstein?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nat View Post
Joe McGinnity?

Chris and Nick

The T206 cards awarded to you for the correct answers to the Trivia quiz #1 and #2 will be in the mail to you today.

Thanks for participating in these Trivia quizzes.


TED Z
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:14 PM
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I received the card today. Thanks so much, Ted!
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  #27  
Old 02-23-2018, 08:20 PM
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Double post.

Last edited by tedzan; 02-23-2018 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:08 PM
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Apologies if this is not the correct thread for this question, but I didn't want to start a new thread for what is probably a basic question.

My monster number is 1, so my T206 knowledge is very limited. I recently picked up a Bill Clymer in rough shape. I just happened to notice that there appears to be extra bright red spots on his face and hands. I have heard of missing red ink, but never extra red ink? Does anybody have an explanation as to what might cause this discoloration? Does it change any thing from a value standpoint?

Apologies for the photo, I am currently unable to take a decent scan.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Clymer.jpg (45.6 KB, 273 views)
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:49 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoyWonder089 View Post
Apologies if this is not the correct thread for this question, but I didn't want to start a new thread for what is probably a basic question.

My monster number is 1, so my T206 knowledge is very limited. I recently picked up a Bill Clymer in rough shape. I just happened to notice that there appears to be extra bright red spots on his face and hands. I have heard of missing red ink, but never extra red ink? Does anybody have an explanation as to what might cause this discoloration? Does it change any thing from a value standpoint?

Apologies for the photo, I am currently unable to take a decent scan.

Hi

The "redness" that appears on Clymer's cheeks, lips, and left hand varies from card to card. On some Clymer cards it is very faint, while others (like yours) it is more intense.

Good luck on collecting the T206's.


TED Z
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:03 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default INDEX to this T206 Reference thread's posts and story's....UPDATED

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *






Post #1......Introduction....starting with Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

Plus, an early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
Lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's in this thread exploring various aspects of the T206 series (including surveys). Resulting in 363 meaningful posts.

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131..Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-13-2018 at 08:47 PM.
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  #31  
Old 03-12-2018, 09:05 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys...PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





522 of the 524 subjects** which comprise a complete T206 set were printed with PIEDMONT backs. The PIEDMONT brand
dominates the T206 population to the tune of 52 - 55%. The following is a complete list of the PIEDMONT cards with respect
to the Series they were printed in.

The SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 sub-set ranks 2nd in this category....as it consists of 469 subjects printed with this back.


PIEDMONT 150

150 Series..................156 subjects


Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Alperman
Ames (hands at chest)
Ames (portrait)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bell (hands over head)
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Birmingham
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bransfield
Bresnahan (portrait)
Bridwell (portrait-no cap)
M. Brown (Cubs)
M. Brown (portrait)
G. Brown (Chicago Nat'l)
Burch (batting)

Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
Clarke (bat)
JJ Clarke
Cobb (green)
Cobb (bat on shoulder)
Conroy (fielding)
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)
Crawford (throwing)
Criger
Criss
Dahlen (Boston Nat'l)
George Davis (Chicago)
Harry Davis (A's)

Delehanty (Washington)
Devlin
Donlin (fielding)
Donlin (seated)
Donohue
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolin
Dougherty (portrait)
L. Doyle (throwing)
Durham
Elberfeld (New York)
Evers (bat-blue sky)
Evers (portrait)
Ewing
Ferris
Flick
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert

Goode
Griffith (portrait)
Hahn
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)
F. Jones (portrait)
F. Jones (hands at hips)
Tom Jones
Jordan (portrait)
Joss (portrait)
Karger
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kleinow (bat)

Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lake (New York)
Leach (portrait)
Leifield (pitching)
Liebhardt
Lindaman
Lobert
Lumley
Lundgren (Cubs)
Magie (portrait)....[ERROR]
Magee (portrait)
Manning (bat)
Marquard (hands at side)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
McGraw (portrait-no cap)
McGraw (pointing)

McIntyre (Brooklyn)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (portrait)
Mullin (throwing)
Murphy (throwing)
Nicholls (hands on knees)
Niles
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Owen
Parent
Pastorius
Pattee
Pelty (horizontal)
Plank
Powell
Powers
Reulbach (glove)
Ritchey

Rucker (portrait)
Schaefer (Detroit)
Schlei (catching)
Schmidt (throwing)
Schulte (front view)
Seymour (batting)
Shaw (St Louis Nat'L)
Sheckard (no glove)
Shipke
F. Smith (Chicago)
Spade
Spencer
Stahl (no glove)
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Sullivan
L. Tannehill (Chicago)
Tenney
Tinker (portrait)

Tinker (hands on knees)
Turner
Waddell (portrait)
Waddell (throwing)
Honus Wagner
Wagner (bat on left)
Wallace
Walsh
Weimer
Doc White (portrait)
Wilhelm (hands at chest)
Williams
Willis (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-no cap)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)



** Note......The Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs.


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 03-12-2018 at 09:22 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #32  
Old 03-12-2018, 09:06 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys...PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

PIEDMONT 350


350-only Series..................Major League subjects = 123

Abstein
Arellanes
Atz
Barbeau
Barry (A's)
Beck
Becker
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Bliss
Bresnahan (bat)
G. Brown (Washington)
Burns
Bush
Byrne
Campbell
Carrigan
Charles
Collins (A's)
Cree

Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Downey (fielding)
Joe Doyle (NY Nat'L)......[ERROR]
Joe Doyle (New York)
Dubuc
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Fletcher

Fromme
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hartsel
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hulswitt
Hunter
Jones (Detroit)
Killian (portrait)
Kleinow (catching--New York)
Knabe

Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
Laporte
Lennox
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
Mc Elveen
McIntyre (Detroit)
McLean
Milan

Miller (Pittsburg)
Mitchell (Cinci)
Moran (Chicago)
Moriarty
Mowery
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nicholls (bat)
Oakes
O'Hara (New York)
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelps
Phillippe
Purtell
Quinn
Raymond

Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Rossman
Schmidt (portrait)
Scott
F. Smith (Chicago--white cap)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Starr
Stephens
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop

Willett
Wilson
Zimmerman



350-only Series..................Minor League subjects = 86

Abbott
Adkins
Anderson
Armbruster
Arndt
Barger
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beckley
Blackburne
Brain
Brashear
Burchell
Burke
Butler
Carr
Casey
Cassidy
Chappelle
Clark

Clancy
Clymer
Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty
Dessau
Dorner
Downs
Dunn (Baltimore)
Flanagan
Freeman
Ganzel
Grimshaw
Hall
Hallman
Hannifan
Hayden

Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoffman (Providence)
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kruger
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Lundgren (KC)
Malarkey
Maloney
McGann
McGinley
McGinnity
McGlynn
Milligan
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Providence)

Nattress
Oberlin
O'Brien
O'Neill
Phelan
Pickering
Poland
Puttman
Quillen
Randall
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)

Strang
Taylor
Thielmann
White (Buffalo)
Wright
Irv Young



Southern League Series..................48 subjects

Bastian
Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard (Savannah)
Jordan (Atlanta)
Kiernan

King
Lafitte
Lentz
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Miller
Molesworth
Mullaney
Orth
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Rockenfeld
Ryan
Seitz
Shaughnessy

Sid Smith (Atlanta)
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Thornton
Violat
Westlake
White (Houston)



Information on the PIEDMONT 350/460 series and the 460-only series will follow.



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-13-2018 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #33  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:37 PM
Rich Falvo Rich Falvo is offline
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Ted - I think the 350-only minor league list needs Moran (Providence) in place of Maddox.

Thanks for putting together these lists. Great information.
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  #34  
Old 05-30-2018, 07:40 PM
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Hi Ted, thanks for always providing such top notch T206 information. I notice you say you “speculate” about such things as players next to each other on a sheet and other things. My question is, did the printers not keep records or have they all been destroyed? Sorry if this has been answered before.


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  #35  
Old 05-30-2018, 10:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys......T206 printed sheet structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr2 View Post
Hi Ted, thanks for always providing such top notch T206 information. I notice you say you “speculate” about such things as players next to each other on a sheet and other things. My question is, did the printers not keep records or have they all been destroyed? Sorry if this has been answered before.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks Greg, and, you ask a great question. Apparently, nothing was saved from American Litho's printing days of their various sets of tobacco cards (1909 - 1919).
Millions and millions of cards were produced, and not even a single sheet of cards has been discovered. This is really very strange. The only example which I know of
players horizontally adjacent to each other on a sheet is Chance (yellow portrait) and Cobb (red portrait), because I have seen a mis-cut T206 indicating this.

Years ago I was in downtown Manhattan, so I ventured over to Park Ave. and E 19th Street where the American Lithographic building still stands. I entered it, hoping
to find a showroom (or some kind of museum) displaying all the great stuff this great printing Company produced in the early 20th Century. What I found were many
professional offices, but no showrooms and no displays of any kind. The only thing I got out that visit was this photo I took of the building's entrance.





One of the competitors to American Lithographic (ALC) was Schmidt Lithography in San Francisco. They produced the OBAK cards. If you go to San Francisco,
visit the museum that Schmidt Lithography has on display. It's a real shame that ALC did not do the same.


TED Z
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  #36  
Old 05-31-2018, 10:07 AM
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Pat R Pat R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Thanks Greg, and, you ask a great question. Apparently, nothing was saved from American Litho's printing days of their various sets of tobacco cards (1909 - 1919).
Millions and millions of cards were produced, and not even a single sheet of cards has been discovered. This is really very strange. The only example which I know of
players horizontally adjacent to each other on a sheet is Chance (yellow portrait) and Cobb (red portrait),
because I have seen a mis-cut T206 indicating this.

Years ago I was in downtown Manhattan, so I ventured over to Park Ave. and E 19th Street where the American Lithographic building still stands. I entered it, hoping
to find a showroom (or some kind of museum) displaying all the great stuff this great printing Company produced in the early 20th Century. What I found were many
professional offices, but no showrooms and no displays of any kind. The only thing I got out that visit was this photo I took of the building's entrance.





One of the competitors to American Lithographic (ALC) was Schmidt Lithography in San Francisco. They produced the OBAK cards. If you go to San Francisco,
visit the museum that Schmidt Lithography has on display. It's a real shame that ALC did not do the same.


TED Z
.

There are several horizontal miscut T206's

Here are the ones I have scans of...

Stephens with a part Of Rossman
Stephens - Rossman Miscut.jpg

Sheckard with Part of Goode, these two are also Neighbors on
a plate scratch sheet.

Sheckard-Goode - Copy.jpg
Sheckard - Goode Plate Scratch - Copy - Copy.jpg

Bergen with part of Herzog (Boston) that Jantz picked up at last years national

Bergen - Herzog - Copy.jpg

horizontal sheet mates can also be found on many of the ghosts...

Wilson Ghost - Copy.jpg
Charles-Fletcher.jpg

on scraps such as the test print scrap....

Test Print Scrap - Copy.jpg

and on all of the plate scratch sheets

attachmentU8OPTOUU.jpg
Donlin-Mullin-Tannehill.jpg
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  #37  
Old 06-01-2018, 06:36 AM
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[quote=Pat R;1782169]

Bergen with part of Herzog (Boston) that Jantz picked up at last years national

Attachment 317938

I sold that one to Jantz. Sad to think I won't be seeing him again.
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  #38  
Old 06-01-2018, 06:57 AM
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I sold that one to Jantz. Sad to think I won't be seeing him again.[/quote]

Hi Ed,

Yes I remember when he posted it that he said he had bought it off you.

Jantz was one of those few people that you never heard anyone
that had anything bad to say about him. I used to meet up with him at
all the nationals that I went to and I've lost interest in going
this year after hearing about his passing.
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  #39  
Old 06-02-2018, 02:06 PM
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Thanks for continuing to post all of this great information Ted. It is nice to have a thread at the top of the board that deals with something other than complaining.

Last edited by Jobu; 06-02-2018 at 02:06 PM.
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  #40  
Old 05-31-2018, 10:07 AM
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Hi Ted,

Well worth reading is an article written by Andy Broome - Printing The Monster.

The article explores the logistics of assembling the player permission and images needed to produce such an enormous checklist anticipated and the clever way it was done. The connection between Joseph P. Knapp, the founder and head of the American Lithographic Company, and James B. Duke, head of the American Tobacco Company, for the printing of nearly all T-cards inserted into ATC products.

Explains the chromolithography process where T206 card sheets are passed through the printer six times for the six different layers of colors and the accuracy needed to keep perfect alignment. Blurry and ghost images as a result of any misalignment. Included in the engineering is the necessary ink color sequence of the layers in the printing.

Beside the image of the entrance to the ALC building there are pictures of a 10 ton lithopress and cutters that cut finished cardsheets of the T206 cards.

Published by Beckett Vintage Collector April, 2018.
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  #41  
Old 05-31-2018, 07:03 PM
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Thanks Jerry,

I will check out Andy Broome's article.


TED Z
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  #42  
Old 05-31-2018, 08:17 PM
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i always enjoy seeing the latest research uncovered by the plate scratches. awesome groundbreaking work patrick
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  #43  
Old 09-08-2018, 02:53 PM
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Default Vertical OM miscut w/ 2 players

Hi all—

Would love assistance with some detective work:

According to the centennnial edition of Inside T206, the only cards known to be vertically miscut AND show 2 different players are from P350-only sheets. It was a result of the Pirates winning the 1909 WS and being long-printed with some sharing vertical rows with other players.

However, I recently acquired an Old Mill back Doc Casey that is vertically miscut, and features a different player at the bottom of the card.

1) Has anyone seen an OM miscut like this?
2) What could be the explanation for the vertical positioning of the different cards like this? Were players alternating vertically in OM?
3) Who might the player with the dark blue background be?

Thanks in advance for your input and expertise. Looking forward to hearing theories.

Justin

Last edited by Silverskulls; 09-08-2018 at 05:37 PM.
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  #44  
Old 09-08-2018, 07:04 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverskulls View Post

However, I recently acquired an Old Mill back Doc Casey that is vertically miscut, and features a different player at the bottom of the card.

1) Has anyone seen an OM miscut like this?
2) What could be the explanation for the vertical positioning of the different cards like this? Were players alternating vertically in OM?
3) Who might the player with the dark blue background be?

Thanks in advance for your input and expertise. Looking forward to hearing theories.

Justin

Hi Justin

#1....I have seen quite a number of mis-cuts like your Casey (but not Casey....seen other T206's).

#2....Multiple printings (vertically) of the same T206 subject was commonplace. Followed by a different subject (above and below) that subject.
This process was independent of the T206 back. Since the fronts were printed first.

#3...." Who might the player with the dark blue background be? "

Casey is a 350-only Series subject, and many T206's in this series have dark blue backgrounds. It's anyone's guess which T206 is below Casey.


TED Z
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  #45  
Old 09-09-2018, 08:53 AM
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Thank you, Ted! Very helpful. The string is a treasure trove.
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  #46  
Old 09-09-2018, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverskulls View Post
Hi all—

Would love assistance with some detective work:

According to the centennnial edition of Inside T206, the only cards known to be vertically miscut AND show 2 different players are from P350-only sheets. It was a result of the Pirates winning the 1909 WS and being long-printed with some sharing vertical rows with other players.

However, I recently acquired an Old Mill back Doc Casey that is vertically miscut, and features a different player at the bottom of the card.

1) Has anyone seen an OM miscut like this?
2) What could be the explanation for the vertical positioning of the different cards like this? Were players alternating vertically in OM?
3) Who might the player with the dark blue background be?

Thanks in advance for your input and expertise. Looking forward to hearing theories.

Justin
I think you can cut this down to a handful of serious candidates.

I might have missed a couple of the dark blue subjects from print group 2
but if you eliminate the ones that haven't been confirmed or are Old Mill
no prints you're left with these candidates.

Batch
Bender (with trees)
Brain
Cree
Knight (with bat)
Krause (portrait)
Livingstone
Quillen

Bender and Cree have different back patterns than Casey and there is a
Livingstone two name PD350 with Maloney at the top so if you eliminate
these three as strong candidates you're left with these five.

Batch
Brain
Knight (with bat)
Krause (portrait)
Quillen

If you have these five in hand to compare with your Casey you
might be able to narrow it down further.

Very nice card congratulations on picking it up!

Last edited by Pat R; 09-09-2018 at 02:20 PM.
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  #47  
Old 09-09-2018, 04:10 PM
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Like I need an excuse but the Nascar race was rained out and it's
cool and overcast here so I was bored.

The colors vary from card to card and can also vary on the same
card with different scans.

These are all Old Mill's and I didn't resize the scans because
I didn't want to distort the colors.

Casey - Batch.jpg

Casey - Brain.jpg

Casey - Knight.jpg

Casey - Krause.jpg

Casey - Quillen.jpg

My choice would be Knight or Krause slightly favoring Knight.
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  #48  
Old 09-09-2018, 04:16 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"

Justin

Also, either one of these Hal Chase cards could have been the card below your Casey card.

These cards were initially printed on an early 350-only series sheet (circa Spring 1910).







TED Z
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  #49  
Old 09-09-2018, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Justin

Also, either one of these Hal Chase cards could have been the card below your Casey card.

These cards were initially printed on an early 350-only series sheet (circa Spring 1910).







TED Z
.
You're right Ted I didn't factor in the super prints or the unconfirmed
Old Mill's with Blue backgrounds and any of them could have been the
card below Casey. I wouldn't consider the Chase blue portrait a strong
candidate though since there's a two name PD350 of Chase with
Zimmerman on top.
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  #50  
Old 09-10-2018, 05:18 PM
Silverskulls Silverskulls is offline
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Thanks guys so much for all of your expertise. I'll continuing digging and see if I can get closer to confirming the blue card showing at the bottom, or figuring out what the card above Casey might be.

Justin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
You're right Ted I didn't factor in the super prints or the unconfirmed
Old Mill's with Blue backgrounds and any of them could have been the
card below Casey. I wouldn't consider the Chase blue portrait a strong
candidate though since there's a two name PD350 of Chase with
Zimmerman on top.
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