Little Red Riding Hood & Her Babe Ruth Signed 700th Homerun Day Ticket

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

My understanding in reading the article was that additional seating ("circus seating") was set up in anticipation of a greater-than-capacity crowd. The press talked it up about how the stadium was bound to be filled to capacity, but the reality of game day didn't live up to the hype. The article also laments the effect that the added seating, apparently at ground level on the field itself, had on game play (kids running around on the field, doubles becoming inside the park home runs, etc), so even though the stadium was not filled to capacity, the field-level seats clearly were occupied to some extent.

Also note that the term "circus" was only ever applied to the additional seating in the article, not the tickets themselves.

Gotcha!
I'm sure that the Tigers organization, in an attempt to capitalize on all of the hype and hysteria surrounding the pennant race and Ruth's 700th HR game, wanted to sell more expensive $1.60 seats, not cheap bleacher seats. $$ is always a great motivator, LOL.

[Runscott]

Everyone participating in this thread has 'Circus Seats'.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Everyone participating in this thread has 'Circus Seats'.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

That was my point

[thecatspajamas]

Ta da!

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Gotcha!
I'm sure that the Tigers organization, in an attempt to capitalize on all of the hype and hysteria surrounding the pennant race and Ruth's 700th HR game, wanted to sell more expensive $1.60 seats, not cheap bleacher seats. $$ is always a great motivator, LOL.

I guess that was par for the course from the baseball owners. The funny thing was that despite having the games on radio, and the Great Depression, Detroit finished first in attendance in 1934. You wouldn't think that the game would need to be "played" up, but money talks.

[David Atkatz]

So, to get back on track, every bit of physical evidence either points to, or is consistent with this being a genuine 700 HR game ticket.

I wonder where "the Michigan forger" obtained it?

[mr2686]

I guess another question would be, even if he obtained it, it would have cost him an amount unusual for a forger to fork out considering he would only have one shot at creating such a convincing Ruth, so why not dummy up a fake ticket instead?

[David Atkatz]

I hope you realize, Mike, I was being a bit of a smartass.
Of board members that have spoken, a majority of those in the "98%," and even a few in the elite "2%" feel the signature is genuine.

All physical evidence is consistent with the ticket being genuine, as well.

I'm sure the buyer will be happy with his purchase.

[mr2686]

Yes I did David. I was just taking the point a litte further. I still stand by my first post in this thread that the OP had good info. I base that strictly on his previous posts that did not tell us anything that would help us determine why he felt the sig was bad. With this tread, we learned that he did not believe the story and why, and whether we agree with all of it or not, it did start a very interesting ticket investigation on this very thread. The other part was to compare the Ruth with a Gaedel (as well as a real Gaedel), which to many of us proved that this forger not only does a terrible Gaedel, he didn't seem, with that comparison, to have the skill to do a Ruth THAT well.
All I ever ask for when someone gives an opinion is to have them back it up with his/her reasons, and agree or disagree at least he finally did that.

[shelly]

Mike, I agree. To me it was the ticket first then the signiture. That is why I wanted to find out if the ticket was correct. I again want to thank everyone that went far and above what usually happens on here. It was nice seeing people working together and not takeing pop shots at each other.
Now its up to each person to decide is the autograph real or not.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Ta da!

Weeee! Haha

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by mr2686

All I ever ask for when someone gives an opinion is to have them back it up with his/her reasons, and agree or disagree at least he finally did that.

No, Mike, he didn't.

He presented a story outlining why he isn't happy with the provenance. He presented no information at all as to why he thinks the signature is the work of the so-called Michigan forger.

[mr2686]

Although he didn't elaborate, he did show additional work of "the forger" for us to draw our own conclusions...which I think we did. I do know what you're saying David, but I've given up at getting any additional type of info in situations like this, but hey I'm just a dumb 98 percenter.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Yes I did David. I was just taking the point a litte further. I still stand by my first post in this thread that the OP had good info. I base that strictly on his previous posts that did not tell us anything that would help us determine why he felt the sig was bad. With this tread, we learned that he did not believe the story and why, and whether we agree with all of it or not, it did start a very interesting ticket investigation on this very thread. The other part was to compare the Ruth with a Gaedel (as well as a real Gaedel), which to many of us proved that this forger not only does a terrible Gaedel, he didn't seem, with that comparison, to have the skill to do a Ruth THAT well.
All I ever ask for when someone gives an opinion is to have them back it up with his/her reasons, and agree or disagree at least he finally did that.

What info did he have? He thought it was rejected by PSA. It wasn't...he had no clue it was certified by JSA. It was. He believed it was rejected by Heritage. It wasn't... He disappears for over a week when questioned about all of this. He comes back and gives us a Red Riding Hood fairy tale that totally deflects from the autograph and focuses on the ticket.

These threads completely illustrate what is wrong in the autograph hobby and what is right in the memorabilia hobby. What did we learn about Babe Ruth autographs? Nothing. What did we learn about ticket stubs? A whole heck of a lot. We also learned something about the game played that day. Lots of collectors chimed in with their FACTS about the game and ticket stub. What did we learn from the 2 percenters? Nothing.

[JT]

+1

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What info did he have? He thought it was rejected by PSA. It wasn't...he had no clue it was certified by JSA. It was. He believed it was rejected by Heritage. It wasn't... He disappears for over a week when questioned about all of this. He comes back and gives us a Red Riding Hood fairy tale that totally deflects from the autograph and focuses on the ticket.

These threads completely illustrate what is wrong in the autograph hobby and what is right in the memorabilia hobby. What did we learn about Babe Ruth autographs? Nothing. What did we learn about ticket stubs? A whole heck of a lot. We also learned something about the game played that day. Lots of collectors chimed in with their FACTS about the game and ticket stub. What did we learn from the 2 percenters? Nothing.

In one of the threads it was pointed out, by SS, that the Ruth signature had some potential issues with it. In comparing some of them how many legitimate Ruth autographs have the A in Babe be open?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What info did he have? He thought it was rejected by PSA. It wasn't...he had no clue it was certified by JSA. It was. He believed it was rejected by Heritage. It wasn't... He disappears for over a week when questioned about all of this. He comes back and gives us a Red Riding Hood fairy tale that totally deflects from the autograph and focuses on the ticket.

These threads completely illustrate what is wrong in the autograph hobby and what is right in the memorabilia hobby. What did we learn about Babe Ruth autographs? Nothing. What did we learn about ticket stubs? A whole heck of a lot. We also learned something about the game played that day. Lots of collectors chimed in with their FACTS about the game and ticket stub. What did we learn from the 2 percenters? Nothing.

+!

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

In one of the threads it was pointed out, by SS, that the Ruth signature had some potential issues with it. In comparing some of them how many legitimate Ruth autographs have the A in Babe be open?

What did we learn? Are there no legit Ruth autographs with an open "A"?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mr2686

I guess another question would be, even if he obtained it, it would have cost him an amount unusual for a forger to fork out considering he would only have one shot at creating such a convincing Ruth, so why not dummy up a fake ticket instead?

As Shelly said, now that we're through analyzing the ticket (for now, anyway), we can look at the signature.

I haven't heard anyone say that this signature is "convincing".

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Runscott

As Shelly said, now that we're through analyzing the ticket (for now, anyway), we can look at the signature.

I haven't heard anyone say that this signature is "convincing".

I believe that some board members have said they believe that it's real.
I'm pretty certain David A. said it was in the 1st thread, FWIW.
If I'm wrong, please don't crucify me.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What did we learn? Are there no legit Ruth autographs with an open "A"?

No one said that. There no such thing as always.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What did we learn? Are there no legit Ruth autographs with an open "A"?

Not many....?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

I believe that some board members have said they believe that it's real.
I'm pretty certain David A. said it was in the 1st thread, FWIW.
If I'm wrong, please don't crucify me.

That's right. In this case, I agree with Jimmy Spence. (I have made a mistake or two in my 50+ years of collecting, and I have made a judgement or two on this very board without looking as closely as I should have, so ya'll gotta factor that in.)

But I believe the signature is good.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

I believe that some board members have said they believe that it's real.
I'm pretty certain David A. said it was in the 1st thread, FWIW.
If I'm wrong, please don't crucify me.

Haha. In any statistical analysis, you would throw out the highs and lows. I threw out a low.

[David Atkatz]

Ha ha. You must be high.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Ha ha. You must be high.

Well-played, sir

[David Atkatz]

Thank you.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Mr. Jim Stinson once commented:

Actually autograph authentication is pretty easy ....No magic wand, and simple formula is when in doubt... BOW OUT ! That includes 1% of doubt.


I have no doubt.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Mr. Jim Stinson once commented:

Actually autograph authentication is pretty easy ....No magic wand, and simple formula is when in doubt... BOW OUT ! That includes 1% of doubt.


I have no doubt.

FWIW, I believe Jim was talking about making a decision whether to purchase an autograph or not.

[shelly]

It now comes down to the autograph. I would love to know what PSA,Stinson,Richard and Ron has to say about this signiture. If you trust Spence I think you would trust these guys. The problem with this is I dont think anyone of them wants to step on each other toes

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I have no doubt.

No evidence, either.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Ben and all,

I have never heard of Emergency tickets being called "circus tickets" FWIW. When I think of circus tickets I think of "raffle" style smaller tickets. The bleacher tickets that Lance showed are somewhat like generic circus tickets. These also had the disclaimer printing on the back. I have quite a few of these from this era.

One additional point to note. Briggs Stadium had PLENTY of capacity to handle large crowds in excess of 26,000 fans in attendance (capacity of the stadium was listed at 36,000). They should not have had to add extra seats, just sell them generic bleacher seats....

Scott, I believe capacity was 26,000 and was increased to 36,000 the following year.

Good analysis here!

I have a question as to when and why they would issue these emergency tickets. Why were they issued on the 12th (Attendance: 20K) and 13th (22.5K), but not the 14th (Sold Out)? Why would they stamp the date on them? Am I wrong in the assumption they would have A-Z? Wouldn't any ticket taker be told it was an 'A' day?
These may be dumb questions, but I'm sure someone here knows.

[shelly]

I want the people that ripped Chris for not saying anything to know that you are all wrong. I emailed a few people that I have respect for to back off because Chris did exactly what you wanted him to do.
He called Josh and told him the name of the forger, the tell and told him where the guy is from. Not only that, he told Josh to relay everything he said to Jimmy. I know this because I was on the other line. Not only that, I emailed Josh and he shined me off. The reason he did not post he had done it would have given the forger more info than was necessary.
Those people can verify that fact if they want to.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by shelly

The reason he did not post he had done it would have given the forger more info than was necessary.

Really? Well, you've just posted that he had done it. What have you given away?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Scott, I believe capacity was 26,000 and was increased to 36,000 the following year.

Good analysis here!

I have a question as to when and why they would issue these emergency tickets. Why were they issued on the 12th (Attendance: 20K) and 13th (22.5K), but not the 14th (Sold Out)? Why would they stamp the date on them? Am I wrong in the assumption they would have A-Z? Wouldn't any ticket taker be told it was an 'A' day?
These may be dumb questions, but I'm sure someone here knows.

Hi Jim,

I went back and re-read the info on Briggs stadium capacity available on the internet. I had two sources state that the capacity of Briggs Stadium was expanded to 30,000 in 1923, but you are correct in that they didn't expand to capacity of 36,000 until 2 years after Babe's 700th HR game in 1934.

Here is my original post about the Emergency tickets used in 1934 and my questions about the use of them after reading Josh from Huggins and Scotts post in the first thread:

"Very interesting...
I'm curious where the photo of all the tickets came from?
I see that it says eBay on the screen shot, but I'm intrigued how this image shows a ticket issued only one day apart (wow!) from the alleged Ruth 700 HR ticket. That's an amazing coincidence! They obviously are stamped identically, at the same angle, yet the Emergency Tickets are "A" tickets one day, and "Z" the following day- in July, no less (half way through the season)!
FWIW, about 22,000 were in attendance for Ruth's 700th HR. Did this require that the Tigers issue emergency tickets? I looked at all the surrounding games at DET on the 1934 schedule and they all appear to have similar attendance, especially with the Yankees in town. I saw attendances ranging from 20,000-26,000 during this homestand. I would also note that at least 4 games at DET prior to the NY series that featured Ruth's HR drew at least as many fans. One of the games drew 30,000 fans and the game on July 4th drew 40,000 fans for a twin bill. Would Ruth's 700th HR be Emergency ticket "Z" if it was at a minimum the 6th high attended game in DET in 1934?
I don't know, and I'm quite certain that no one knows for sure. It just seems odd to me, FWIW...

I certainly can be wrong, but I stand by my assertion that I have not seen other earlier vintage Tigers tickets stamped in this fashion prior to the screen shot that you posted"

FWIW, I now believe, given all of the new evidence submitted, that they would have issued Emergency tickets for the July 14th game as well, especially if they were anticipating a blow out turnout because of all the PR and the pennant battle between the Tigers and the Yanks.

You are correct in that the ticket takers would all be privy to the Emergency tickets being "A" or "Z" or whatever depending on the day.

[JT]

Originally Posted by shelly

I want the people that ripped Chris for not saying anything to know that you are all wrong. I emailed a few people that I have respect for to back off because Chris did exactly what you wanted him to do.
He called Josh and told him the name of the forger, the tell and told him where the guy is from. Not only that, he told Josh to relay everything he said to Jimmy. I know this because I was on the other line. Not only that, I emailed Josh and he shined me off. The reason he did not post he had done it would have given the forger more info than was necessary.
Those people can verify that fact if they want to.

And this will change what? I don't believe the auction house, the buyer, the seller, or JSA will rescind the sale, purchase, authentication or anything involved with this. Regardless of what Chris may or may not have finally stated to Josh, everyone actually involved with this transaction appears to be happy as nothing has been stated to rebuke that assumption.

As for everyone being wrong, I believe everyone was right when any statements you are referring to were made.

[shelly]

If you read what I said. You are wrong in thinking that Chris did nothing.Nothing more than what you asked him to do. What the auction house did with that info was up to them.
I am only stating that Chris did what most of you on this site asked him to do. Because he did not say anything to you or anyone else on this board I can now see why. Your damned if you do and you are damned if you don't.
I really think that this site has become who can we pick on next. There was so much pilling on that you should all be ashamed.
I am who I am and you take shots at me.
Chris has never hurt this hobbie and always tried to help. You hurt the one person that has done more to help than anyone of you on this site. If I am wrong name that other person.

[David Atkatz]

What corroborating evidence did Chris present?

[travrosty]

he didnt do what we asked. we asked for proof and he didnt show any.

he could have NOT started the thread and go directly to h and s and spence but that wouldnt give him the opportunity to brag because why start the thread if he isnt going to show proof other than to brag and bring attention to himself that he knows something and the rest don't?

you cant rally people behind your cause and build a consensus if everything, and i mean everything you do in your life regarding the hobby is a big SECRET! how is it picking on someone to ask for proof of their serious charge? no one should pile on if someone comes on here and says i know something and you dont deserve to know and i am right and you can't disagree because i am the top 2% and you aint ship?

w t heck? NOW I have seen it all. I am sure lots of lawyers in the courtroom would love to try that trick when prosecuting someone. I know they are guilty so don't even bother asking me how I know! He prosecuted this autograph and didn't present any hard evidence. And again, if you counter that he let h and s and spence know everything, then so what? he could have done that anyway without starting the thread and thumbing his nose at the rest of us telling us we are not worthy of his information? I want to know his history and background regarding vintage baseball autographs.

he flames atkatz and bretta but doesnt answer me at all. i know all i will get is that he doesn't owe me or anyone else anything regarding his hobby resume concerning vintage baseball. fighting forgeries and knowing babe ruth and vintage baseball autographs are two different things.

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Why would they stamp the date on them? Am I wrong in the assumption they would have A-Z? Wouldn't any ticket taker be told it was an 'A' day?
These may be dumb questions, but I'm sure someone here knows.

I would think they would stamp it for the benefit of the ticket holder. It is likely that at least a handful of people purchased more than one ticket for the series. Without a date stamp, it might lead to confusion.

[JT]

Originally Posted by shelly

If you read what I said. You are wrong in thinking that Chris did nothing.Nothing more than what you asked him to do.

Shelly,

And how recently did Chris share this information? It wasn't during the auction was it?

[shelly]

Originally Posted by travrosty

he didnt do what we asked. we asked for proof and he didnt show any.

he could have NOT started the thread and go directly to h and s and spence but that wouldnt give him the opportunity to brag because why start the thread if he isnt going to show proof other than to brag and bring attention to himself that he knows something and the rest don't?

you cant rally people behind your cause and build a consensus if everything, and i mean everything you do in your life regarding the hobby is a big SECRET! how is it picking on someone to ask for proof of their serious charge? no one should pile on if someone comes on here and says i know something and you dont deserve to know and i am right and you can't disagree because i am the top 2% and you aint ship?

w t heck? NOW I have seen it all. I am sure lots of lawyers in the courtroom would love to try that trick when prosecuting someone. I know they are guilty so don't even bother asking me how I know! He prosecuted this autograph and didn't present any hard evidence. And again, if you counter that he let h and s and spence know everything, then so what? he could have done that anyway without starting the thread and thumbing his nose at the rest of us telling us we are not worthy of his information? I want to know his history and background regarding vintage baseball autographs.

Travis, when you are asked a question do always answer it? I know that you have a friend that knows the Babe's sig, please ask if he would buy or not.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by JT

Shelly,

And how recently did Chris share this information? It wasn't during the auction was it?

Yes the date was 4/8/2013 at 12;33 est,

[David Atkatz]

I don't believe a word of it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I don't believe a word of it.

I was contacted by Shelly on the day of the auction, before it was over. He and I spoke for a good little while on the phone.

[David Atkatz]

And?

[JT]

Originally Posted by shelly

Yes the date was 4/8/2013 at 12;33 est,

If that is true, I can only assume whatever Chris stated was not sufficient in any way to override what others thought and believed, nor does it appear to even now.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by JT

If that is true, I can only assume whatever Chris stated was not sufficient in any way to override what others thought and believed, nor does it appear to even now.

Then the question is would you spend $ 12000 on this piece knowing what you have read. If you say yes why not buy a 1/1 that you think was a great bargin?
If you could not afford it I understand.

[David Atkatz]

Since when is the test of authenticity "Would you buy it?"

Ruth either signed that ticket, or he didn't. Who would or would not buy it is totally irrelevant.