NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-06-2017, 11:51 PM
trdcrdkid's Avatar
trdcrdkid trdcrdkid is offline
David Kathman
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,560
Default Hobby history: Early card auctions, 1944-1945

A few weeks ago, I wrote a post about the first auction of tobacco cards ever held, when Jefferson Burdick sold the collection of James Colkitt in late 1943. He described and promoted the auction (which he called a "mail sale") in the pages of Card Collector's Bulletin, but only listed the lots in a separate auction catalogue, which I don't have. After the Colkitt sale ended successfully (with a single bidder winning all the lots), there was a second auction in early 1944 to sell the collection of Alfred O. Phillipp, but Burdick handed the reins for that one to Charles Bray, who would continue to run auctions in Card Collector's Bulletin for the next 40 years. The lots for that second auction were also listed in a separate auction catalog, but Burdick and Bray wrote about it quite a bit in the pages of CCB. My post about those first two card auctions is here:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=239891

In Card Collector's Bulletin #30 (June 1, 1944), in which Burdick and Bray announced the results of the second auction, they also announced the start of a third auction with a closing date of August 12, 1944. The lots were still listed in a separate auction catalog which I don't have, but in the August 1, 1944 CCB (#31), Burdick and Bray announced some changes in the auction rules. In the first two auctions, bidders could write or call to find out the high bid on any lot, then top that bid if they wanted to. Burdick said this was to make it as if you were in the room at a live auction, but a lot of people complained, so he changed the rules to make all bids confidential. In addition, he changed it so that winning bidders only had to pay slightly more than the second-highest bid, which is now standard practice. So you could make a very high bid on a lot you really wanted, but then you had to hope that nobody else had the same idea and also made a crazy high bid. That kind of thing still happens on eBay and with auction houses, but back in 1944 you had to wait until the auction was over to find out what happened. Anyway, here are the relevant pages of CCB #31, which also include some interesting discussion by Burdick and Bray.





In the next issue of CCB (#32, October 1, 1944), Burdick and Bray announced a fourth card auction, but this time they listed the lots in the pages of CCB, a practice Bray would continue for the next four decades. He listed the number of cards in each lot, and in parentheses added the number of damaged cards (many of which no doubt had paper loss on the back). Alongside each lot description was an estimated value, based on the values in the 1939 United States Card Catalog -- since prices had risen quite a bit in the previous five years (as I noted in my post on the Colkitt auction), these estimates prices were four times catalog for color 19th century cards, twice catalog for 20th century tobacco cards and actress cards, and catalog values for everything else. At the end of the auction listings, Burdick wrote about the results of the third auction, including some of the prices realized.

The most interesting lot in this auction for me is #20, consisting of 900 different Old Judges, with an estimated value of $560. There were also three lots of Mayo die-cut ballplayers, which we know as N301. On the second page, there were two lots of T206s, 478 different (85 damaged) and 447 different (140 damaged); two lots of 40 different T201s (one very fine, one with 15 damaged cards); a lot of 124 different T205s (54 damaged); plus some B18 blankets and P2 pins.






In the next issue of CCB (#33, December 1, 1944), Burdick wrote in his "News Notes" column about the results of sale #4, and about the size of lots in the auctions. He mentions that lot 20 (the 900 Old Judges) got surprisingly few bids, apparently because people were scared off by the $560 estimated value. The next two pages have the listings for Mail Sale #5, followed by some more comments by Burdick about the results of auction #4, and a complete list of prices realized from that auction. This shows that the lot of 900 Old Judges went for $300, or 3 for $1; in inflation-adjusted terms, that's $4,144, or about $4.50 a card, in today's dollars. Of the two big lots of T206s, the first one (#79) apparently got no bids, and the second one, #80 (447 different, 140 damaged), went for $9.00, well below the estimated value of $21.45. The T201s, however, went for more than the estimate, and the lot of 124 different T205s went for $4.75, close to the estimate of $4.96.

Of the lots in auction #5, there were more N301 Mayo die cuts; a lot of 48 different T3 Turkey Reds (then known as #514), 28 of them damaged; and near sets of T206 (518 different, 25 damaged) and T205 (207 different, 38 damaged), a complete set of T201s, and lots of T202s and T207s.







In CCB #34 (February 1, 1945), Burdick wrote a short article with tips on bidding (below), followed by the listings for Mail Sale #6 and the prices realized from #5. The near-set of T206s went for $20.75, about two-thirds of the estimate, but the other baseball sets went for more than their estimates: the T3s for $12.50, the near-set of T205s for $10.50, the set of T201s for $7.00, the T202s for $7.25, and the T207s for $11.25. The new auction, #6, included T205s, T207s, T201s, and T202s, but no more T206s or T3s.






Unfortunately, the next issue of CCB (#35, April 1, 1945) did not have the prices realized from auction #6; they must have appeared in issue #36, which I don't have. (The next one I have is #40, which I've posted here.) It does have the listings for an abbreviated Mail Sale #7, with only 40 lots. I'll end this post with those listings, below. The only baseball cards in this one were two lots of T3s, plus lots of 44 different N28s and 35 different N29s that undoubtedly included some of the baseball players in those sets. If I ever get a hold of CCBs #36 through 39, I'll be able to see what those lots in auctions #6 and 7 went for.

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-10-2017, 11:08 PM
trdcrdkid's Avatar
trdcrdkid trdcrdkid is offline
David Kathman
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,560
Default

As an addendum to this post, I thought I would mention something about the sales commission (or what we today call a buyer's premium) that Charles Bray charged for those early card auctions in Card Collector's Bulletin. In all of the Bray auction listings that appeared in CCB in the 1940s, including those that listed the rules at the beginning (like several of those posted above), there is no mention of any sales commission. The first mention of such a commission that I've been able to find is in the June 1, 1950 CCB, in which Bray mentioned at the end of the auction listing that the sales commission was 10% of the price realized:



Yet from other sources, it's pretty clear that Bray was charging a 10% sales commission before that, which makes sense given all the work he was putting into running the auctions. In the August 1, 1948 CCB, Jefferson Burdick described a two-day visit he had made to Bray's home, including all the time and effort Bray was putting into the sales, and says that "my opinion is that the 10% commission is well earned."



The 10% sales commission remained unchanged through the end of 1960. In the December 1, 1960 CCB (#129), Bray announced that he was raising the sales commission to 15%. His wording implies that the commission had been 10% since the beginning:



Finally, here is an example of a bid sheet for a Bray auction from around that time, the only example I have. There is no mention of a sales commission on here, but maybe that's because it was mentioned in CCB by this time; it may be that the early bid sheets from the 1940s mentioned the 10% commission.

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-11-2017, 02:36 AM
enuffsenuff enuffsenuff is offline
Ian Penistone
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Grimsby,England
Posts: 55
Default Edgar C. Wharton -Tigar

Reading through your historical item I was hoping to see a reference to EC Wharton Tigar to which end I wasn't disappointed. He is mentioned as visiting some Collectors in the East in the early sixties. Edgar was the most prominent card collector in the UK and became the President of the U.K. Cartophilic Society writing several books on the hobby. He had close connections with many US collectors and bought up several important collections in your country. His vast collection now resides in a museum in London but not on show.
He was a well travelled senior executive of an mining company and when on foreign business trips he would always try to tie in some card dealing. Here is an extraction from his autobiography Burning Bright,
"As I have previously mentioned,my visits to the US brought me into contact with Charles R Bray and Jefferson R Burdick, whose monumental collection of American cards was accepted by the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, where it had a special place in the Print Room. Like CH Matthews, Charlie Bray told me he wished to sell his collection before his death to save his widow and handicapped daughter the complications of estate duty. Thus, the Bray collection of American issues, second only to that in the Metropolitan Museum, and in many respects it equal,found its way to London in my suitcases over a period of several months during regular business trips to New York."

I can recommend Edgar's autobiography which is an interesting read. I have a signed copy dedicated to another legend of British card collecting who has since passed but I willing be holding onto it for now.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-11-2017, 06:56 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,328
Default

Hey Enuff- You might want to gander at this thread if you enjoy Edgar Wharton-Tigar stuff...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=wharton+tigar

And David, your postings are very much appreciated even though they might not always be acknowledged enough....take care

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuffsenuff View Post
Reading through your historical item I was hoping to see a reference to EC Wharton Tigar to which end I wasn't disappointed. He is mentioned as visiting some Collectors in the East in the early sixties. Edgar was the most prominent card collector in the UK and became the President of the U.K. Cartophilic Society writing several books on the hobby. He had close connections with many US collectors and bought up several important collections in your country. His vast collection now resides in a museum in London but not on show.
He was a well travelled senior executive of an mining company and when on foreign business trips he would always try to tie in some card dealing. Here is an extraction from his autobiography Burning Bright,
"As I have previously mentioned,my visits to the US brought me into contact with Charles R Bray and Jefferson R Burdick, whose monumental collection of American cards was accepted by the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, where it had a special place in the Print Room. Like CH Matthews, Charlie Bray told me he wished to sell his collection before his death to save his widow and handicapped daughter the complications of estate duty. Thus, the Bray collection of American issues, second only to that in the Metropolitan Museum, and in many respects it equal,found its way to London in my suitcases over a period of several months during regular business trips to New York."

I can recommend Edgar's autobiography which is an interesting read. I have a signed copy dedicated to another legend of British card collecting who has since passed but I willing be holding onto it for now.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-13-2017, 07:21 AM
Jayworld's Avatar
Jayworld Jayworld is offline
Jay Shelton
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 752
Default

This is a fantastic post. Thank you for the scans and a view to our collecting historical past!
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hobby history: Card dealers of the early 1960s, part 1: Taylor vs. Gelman trdcrdkid Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 25 09-14-2021 02:04 PM
Hobby history: The first Old Judge checklist, 1944 trdcrdkid Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 9 06-03-2017 07:15 AM
Hobby history: 1945 Sporting News article on baseball card collecting trdcrdkid Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 04-25-2017 09:28 AM
Card Collectors Bulletin and early hobby history (in Sport Fan) trdcrdkid Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 1 04-30-2016 09:31 PM
1965 Rich Egan article on Card Collectors Bulletin, early hobby history trdcrdkid Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 04-26-2016 05:28 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:25 PM.


ebay GSB