Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[tedzan]

An often repeated excuse from the naysayers...."It's the thinner cardboard stock which the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that disqualifies
them from being considered T206's." This thinking is really ridiculous. My question to you naysayers is this....Then how come you don't DISCARD
the AMERICAN BEAUTY (AB) cards, since their card dimensions are inconsistent with all the other T206's ? ?

Well of course that is as ridiculous as the above comment regarding the 1910 COUPON's. It's all the same difference. Both AB and 1910 COUPON
cards differ from the other T206's due to Cigarette pack factors. American Lithographic trimmed the AB cards in anticipation of ATC's intention of
narrowing down AB cigarette packs (however, this never occurred). And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be used as cigarette pack
stiffeners. Since this new brand (introduced circa 1909-1910) was packaged as loose cigarettes in 200-count cartons labelled COUPON Cigarettes.
Such a cigarette carton is seen in Jeremy's 2016 thread (post #37)….. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+COUPON&page=4

Incidentally, no standard cigarette pack of that era has ever been reported that would have contained 1910 COUPON cards. And, I do not expect
that one will ever surface.
Therefore, my theory is that 1910 COUPON cards were either placed inside these 200-count cartons....or were pasted on these cartons. The latter
case would certainly explain the recurring paper loss found on quite a number of these cards' backs.

Here are some examples from my 1910 COUPON collection, which have the typical "glue spot" paper loss on the upper part of the backs (possibly
due to the cards having been pasted on cartons)......


.


.


.




P.S. Jeff Burdick's accomplishments in our hobby (Sportscards & Non-Sportscards) are amazing. And, if he had the benefit of the Internet,
I have no doubt that the 1910 COUPON cards would have been catalogued alongwith the 15 other basic T-brands in the T206 set.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by [B

P.S.[/B] Jeff Burdick's accomplishments in our hobby (Sportscards & Non-Sportscards) are amazing. And, if he had the benefit of the Internet,
I have no doubt that the 1910 COUPON cards would have been catalogued alongwith the 15 other basic T-brands in the T206 set.

I agree, Ted. I won't rehash all of the points I made previously but, in summary, same fronts, same font, same back ad design as others. Burdick noted in his book that the Coupons were printed in 1914-15. Had he known that the T213-1s were printed earlier, I don't really see a reason why he wouldn't have classified them as T206.

I suppose there could be an argument that he thought it was more important to keep them grouped with the other Coupons since they shared the same fronts as T213-2 and T213-3. But I also wonder if he might have reconsidered had he realized T213-1 was printed earlier during the T206 time frame.

[Leon]

Until the American Card Catalog is rewritten they will remain T213-1. It doesn't matter what anyone says, it is what it is. Some things in the English language don't make perfect sense either. Maybe Burdick should have made them T206s but he clearly didn't. They are simply T213-1, Coupons.

[DeanH3]

Put me in the they are T206's camp. There's just too many similarities for them not to be.

[RCMcKenzie]

Hi, Ted, Happy Holidays. This topic reminds me of standing before a Shakespeare class and explaining that 'Shakespeare' is just a pen name. It makes the crowd upset.

My only concern in this post is the theory about paper loss on the back. I have not noticed a pattern of paper loss on the ones I have. Take care, all.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Hi, Ted, Happy Holidays. This topic reminds me of standing before a Shakespeare class and explaining that 'Shakespeare' is just a pen name. It makes the crowd upset.

My only concern in this post is the theory about paper loss on the back. I have not noticed a pattern of paper loss on the ones I have. Take care, all.

Rob

Happy Holidays to you....and, I got a over your "Shakespeare" analogy.

Here is another one of my cards with a back problem. This one, though, only has cardboard residue on it from being pasted on a cigarette carton.
Which I'd say proves my theory that some of these 1910 COUPON cards were pasted on the COUPON Cigarette cartons.


.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

I agree, Ted. I won't rehash all of the points I made previously but, in summary, same fronts, same font, same back ad design as others. Burdick noted in his book that the Coupons were printed in 1914-15. Had he known that the T213-1s were printed earlier, I don't really see a reason why he wouldn't have classified them as T206.

I suppose there could be an argument that he thought it was more important to keep them grouped with the other Coupons since they shared the same fronts as T213-2 and T213-3. But I also wonder if he might have reconsidered had he realized T213-1 was printed earlier during the T206 time frame.

Cozumeleno

I appreciate your very concise response regarding this matter of the 1910 COUPON cards.

Thanks,

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RedsFan1941]

no they are not t206s

but always fun to discuss for the fiftieth time

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

no they are not t206s

Of course they aren't. Burdick looked at the cards, they all had similar fronts but not exact and had the same brand of cigarette on the back. No other T206 ad back group has the characteristics of the T213 Coupon set. Or show me one with a blue caption or on paper stock.

This is a quote from Burdick on the series, and found in the ACC-
"T213- Baseball Series. Coupon Cigarettes, designs of T206. 2 types, names in brown as NO. T206 or name in blue. On card or heavy paper. Issued 1914-1915 and includes Federal League. Many team changes. Name in blue value .35"

He knew they were similar but didn't make them T206, it really is as easy as that. They shoulda, woulda, coulda have been something else. But alas, they aren't

.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

Of course they aren't. Burdick looked at the cards, they all had similar fronts but not exact and had the same brand of cigarette on the back. No other T206 ad back group has the characteristics of the T213 Coupon set. Or show me one with a blue caption or on paper stock.

This is a quote from Burdick on the series, and found in the ACC-
"T213- Baseball Series. Coupon Cigarettes, designs of T206. 2 types, names in brown as NO. T206 or name in blue. On card or heavy paper. Issued 1914-1915 and includes Federal League. Many team changes. Name in blue value .35"

He knew they were similar but didn't make them T206, it really is as easy as that. They shoulda, woulda, coulda have been something else. But alas, they aren't

.

Yet Burdick only mentioned two types when in reality there are three so he made a mistake regarding this as well! We all now recognize that there are 3 types of coupons...there is no dispute! Mistakes are made and what's important is that they are corrected.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Of course they aren't. Burdick looked at the cards, they all had similar fronts but not exact and had the same brand of cigarette on the back. No other T206 ad back group has the characteristics of the T213 Coupon set.

With all due respect Leon...…I'm not quite sure I understand this statement of your's ?


Anyhow, it's obvious to me that the American Litho (ALC) artist designed these 5 backs (which include the 1910 COUPON back) during the T206 timeline (circa Spring/Summer 1910).



A - B - C - C - D connection






And, at some later date another ALC artist designed these COUPON backs for the T213-2 (circa 1914-1916) and T213-3 (circa 1916-1919) sets...…



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



So, please explain your comment.....because I don't get it ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

An often repeated excuse from the naysayers...."It's the thinner cardboard stock which the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that disqualifies
them from being considered T206's." This thinking is really ridiculous. My question to you naysayers is this....Then how come you don't DISCARD
the AMERICAN BEAUTY (AB) cards, since their card dimensions are inconsistent with all the other T206's ? ?

Well of course that is as ridiculous as the above comment regarding the 1910 COUPON's. It's all the same difference. Both AB and 1910 COUPON
cards differ from the other T206's due to Cigarette pack factors. American Lithographic trimmed the AB cards in anticipation of ATC's intention of
narrowing down AB cigarette packs (however, this never occurred). And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be used as cigarette pack
stiffeners. Since this new brand (introduced circa 1909-1910) was packaged as loose cigarettes in 200-count cartons labelled COUPON Cigarettes.
Such a cigarette carton is seen in Jeremy's 2016 thread (post #37)….. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+COUPON&page=4

Incidentally, no standard cigarette pack of that era has ever been reported that would have contained 1910 COUPON cards. And, I do not expect
that one will ever surface.
Therefore, my theory is that 1910 COUPON cards were either placed inside these 200-count cartons....or were pasted on these cartons. The latter
case would certainly explain the recurring paper loss found on quite a number of these cards' backs.

Here are some examples from my 1910 COUPON collection, which have the typical "glue spot" paper loss on the upper part of the backs (possibly
due to the cards having been pasted on cartons)......


.


.


.




P.S. Jeff Burdick's accomplishments in our hobby (Sportscards & Non-Sportscards) are amazing. And, if he had the benefit of the Internet,
I have no doubt that the 1910 COUPON cards would have been catalogued alongwith the 15 other basic T-brands in the T206 set.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

But he did have the benefit of being around when they were distributed and
they were less than 30 years old when he created the ACC.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

An often repeated excuse from the naysayers...."It's the thinner cardboard stock which the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that disqualifies
them from being considered T206's." This thinking is really ridiculous. My question to you naysayers is this....Then how come you don't DISCARD
the AMERICAN BEAUTY (AB) cards, since their card dimensions are inconsistent with all the other T206's ? ?

Well of course that is as ridiculous as the above comment regarding the 1910 COUPON's. It's all the same difference. Both AB and 1910 COUPON
cards differ from the other T206's due to Cigarette pack factors. American Lithographic trimmed the AB cards in anticipation of ATC's intention of
narrowing down AB cigarette packs (however, this never occurred). And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be used as cigarette pack
stiffeners. Since this new brand (introduced circa 1909-1910) was packaged as loose cigarettes in 200-count cartons labelled COUPON Cigarettes.
Such a cigarette carton is seen in Jeremy's 2016 thread (post #37)….. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+COUPON&page=4

Incidentally, no standard cigarette pack of that era has ever been reported that would have contained 1910 COUPON cards. And, I do not expect
that one will ever surface.Therefore, my theory is that 1910 COUPON cards were either placed inside these 200-count cartons....or were pasted on these cartons. The latter
case would certainly explain the recurring paper loss found on quite a number of these cards' backs.

Here are some examples from my 1910 COUPON collection, which have the typical "glue spot" paper loss on the upper part of the backs (possibly
due to the cards having been pasted on cartons)......







P.S. Jeff Burdick's accomplishments in our hobby (Sportscards & Non-Sportscards) are amazing. And, if he had the benefit of the Internet,
I have no doubt that the 1910 COUPON cards would have been catalogued alongwith the 15 other basic T-brands in the T206 set.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Jon has a picture of a coupon pack on his site.

http://baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jon has a picture of a coupon pack on his site.

http://baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

Pat

We have gone thru this before....that pack in Jon's pix contained T213-2 or T213-3 cards. It did NOT contain 1910 COUPON cards. Think about it, the T-cards of that
era served the purpose of stiffening the cigarette pack. Two cards, one on each side of the pack were inserted.

There's no way the thin cardboard stock that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that could serve as stiffeners.

Incidentally, years ago I discussed with Jon the possibility of a cigarette pack containing 1910 COUPON cards, and if I recall correctly: Jon said that none were found.


Furthermore, a pack designed for 1910 COUPON cards would have had Quotation Marks on the brand name as the backs of these cards are printed with. The quotes
signify a new Tobacco brand which is in the process of getting a Registered Trademark.
Here are examples of this....

............ .






Therefore, continue your search for a Coupon pack that is labelled..... "COUPON".

Please contact me when you do find such a pack.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

We have gone thru this before....that pack in Jon's pix contained T213-2 or T213-3 cards. It did NOT contain 1910 COUPON cards. Think about it, the T-cards of that
era served the purpose of stiffening the cigarette pack. Two cards, one on each side of the pack were inserted.

There's no way the thin cardboard stock that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that could serve as stiffeners.

Incidentally, years ago I discussed with Jon the possibility of a cigarette pack containing 1910 COUPON cards, and if I recall correctly: Jon said that none were found.


Furthermore, a pack designed for 1910 COUPON cards would have had Quotation Marks on the brand name as the backs of these cards are printed with. The quotes
signify a new Tobacco brand which is in the process of getting a Registered Trademark.
Here are examples of this....

............ .






Therefore, continue your search for a Coupon pack that is labelled..... "COUPON".
Please contact me when you do find such a pack.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Will do Ted, and you keep up the search for the reprints with impossible
backs and stating your opinions and theory's as facts.

[tedzan]

Hey Pat

Wishing you a very Happy New Year.

Perhaps we can try to enjoy 2019 without any sarcasm on this forum.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Fair enough Ted. So back to the discussion the coupon carton you refer to in
Jeremy's post doesn't have the quotation marks either.

Coupon carton.jpg

and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

We have gone thru this before....that pack in Jon's pix contained T213-2 or T213-3 cards. It did NOT contain 1910 COUPON cards. Think about it, the T-cards of that
era served the purpose of stiffening the cigarette pack. Two cards, one on each side of the pack were inserted.

There's no way the thin cardboard stock that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that could serve as stiffeners.

Incidentally, years ago I discussed with Jon the possibility of a cigarette pack containing 1910 COUPON cards, and if I recall correctly: Jon said that none were found.


Furthermore, a pack designed for 1910 COUPON cards would have had Quotation Marks on the brand name as the backs of these cards are printed with. The quotes
signify a new Tobacco brand which is in the process of getting a Registered Trademark.
Here are examples of this....

............ .






Therefore, continue your search for a Coupon pack that is labelled..... "COUPON".

Please contact me when you do find such a pack.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It's possible the quotes were never put on the packs from circa 1910.
In post #5 of this thread Jon says the pack on his website is from 1910
hopefully if he changed his mind he will chime in.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ghlight=Coupon

It seems like they used quotes on a several tobacco products around that time.
I have this Carolina Bright's coupon that has "Carolina Brights" on the coupon
but on the picture of the pack Carolina Brights doesn't have quotes.

Tobacco Coupon Back.jpg Tobacco Coupon.jpg

[topcat61]

Hey Ted, everyone -It depends on how you look at it. Coupon Cigarettes and the Irby Branch were sold to Liggett & Myers on April 30th, 1911 from ATC