Experience with eBay buyer scams?

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Posted By: David R

I sold some cards a month or so ago on eBay (less than $100). The buyer had low feedback and no prior card purchases. I didn't hear from him for 10 days despite my emails. He then suddenly paid by PayPal and I sent the cards USPS with delivery confirmation. Now, three weeks later, I got the following message from the buyer:

"hi there ! i just realized how long has taken to get you cards ,did you happen to send them certificate or something ?i never got them !can you please let me know when should i expect them to arrive"

Post office says it was delivered. He says he didn't receive anything (I don't believe him). Any way for me to avoid negative feedback other than to refund his money? Is PayPal going to simply take it out of my account if he complains?

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Posted By: Ben

Did the delivery confirmation require his signature upon receipt? If so, then paypal will side with you if a dispute is opened on this matter. Otherwise, it could get tricky. Man, there's so much scum out there. Hope it works out for you.

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Posted By: David R

Thanks Ben. No, it was "delivery confirmation," not certified with signature required.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Hi, go to USPS.com-the home page has a tab near the top that says "track and confirm". Type in the del con number and the page will show you the exact time and date that the item was delivered. If the guy doesn't accept this, don't worry about it. You have the proof of delivery. Don't refund the money.

Rick

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

Now look at the other side of the coin. I won this item Oct 15 and paid right away. The seller tells me it went out with a conformation number and that I should contact my Post Office. Well I did and my P.O. has No record that if ever got into there system. I informed the seller of this and all he keeps telling me is he has a conformation number. Like that means anything to me. I want my card I don't give a crap about his number. And I think it is his responsibility to find where it is. Rob PS look at the link  http://www.stamps.com/shipstatus/submit/?confirmation=9101010521297077895709

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Posted By: Dave F

Confused here...Rob, are you the one that bought from David? Or is the link you provided to a different transaction your involved in?

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Posted By: Matt

if you have a delivery conf #, Paypal will side with you, for better or for worse.

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

No this is different. I just want to show that not all seller are honest. This guy tells me my card went out on Oct 17 and it's not his problem because he has an electroic comformation like that means anything. Rob

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Posted By: Matt

"not all seller(s) are honest" - believe me, I know

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

Her's the item check his feedback, how do they let this person still sell. The only reason I bid is because it is an error card. Rob http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120170757914

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Posted By: leon

I guess I am unaware of the whole situation the way I thought I was. I sort of thought delivery confirmation was NOT proof of receipt. Don't get me wrong as that is what I almost always use (too cheap for signature confirmation)...I truly thought if a buyer was a scammer and said he didn't get my package then I was still liable. IF the package gets to the recipient but somehow gets lost before he physically gets it (left on doorstep or in mailbox etc..) then I thought I was still really liable for it? SO far, knock on wood, I haven't had this happen....

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Bob, If the seller REALLY has the PayPal confirmation of delivery, then he should be able to provide you with a paper copy or a link. If he sent it delivery confirmation then you can look it up at USPS.com and see for yourself. If he sent it insured, send me the Insured number and I will look it up when I return to work on Friday.

I will be happy to help you with this as much as I can. (I am the Postmaster in Lancaster, WI)

Rick

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Posted By: Peck

The number given to you is a stamps.com transaction number and not a delivery confirmation number issued by the USPS. It shows that something was mailed by the seller using stamps.com postage but doesn't show it's destination. I believe stamps.com issues the transaction number for free. I would go to the stamps.com website and contact them for information regarding the transaction number.

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

I called stamps.com and they told me they have nothing to do with this. They told me to call my local P.O. that it is out of there hands. Does anyone know why somebody like this is still allowed to sell on Ebay? Is it just the greed of ebay for the sellers fees? They do not seem to care if a seller has almost 800 negs in a 12 month period. There is something wrong there. I wish someone would come up with another online auction house to compete with this crap auction house we call Ebay. Rob  PS I wonder how many people just let things go because if they leave a Neg so will he. Can you imagine the number of Negs, it would be twice as many as he has already

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

Thanks Rick, but that's the only number he gave me. Rob

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Posted By: David R

Rick,

On my situation. I checked and I actually sent the cards Certified Mail, not delivery confirmation. Is that better or worse in terms of confirming delivery and/or receipt (it was not "Return Receipt", just Certified (green receipt)).

Thanks

David

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Posted By: leon

I think certified is signature plus date stamping...I think you are safe on this one as the buyer, or someone, should have had to sign for the package.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

David, Certified is much better than Delivery Confirmation. Here is what happens with both items:

Delivery Confirmation - The delivery confirmation label is scanned by the window clerk when it is mailed. It isn't scanned again until the item is either delivered or delivery is attempted. In both cases it is scanned by your letter carrier. When you go to the USPS.com website you will see the date and time that it was mailed, the class of mail that was used, the amount of postage that was paid, and the date and the time that the item was delivered.

If the postage was generated through ebay/paypal, you generally won't see the acceptance scan, only the delivery scan. However, the mailer can get this info from the PayPal site. If the postage was generated through Stamps.com the mailer can also print a hard copy showing all of this info.

Certified Mail - Certified mail is only accepted over the counter, not through Stamps.com or PayPal. Certified is scanned the same way as delivery confirmation. The big difference is that ALL Certified mail must be signed for before it is delivered. You may also purchase a return receipt at the time of mailing which the customers signs, then the signed receipt is returned to the mailer.

Rick

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Posted By: Steve

Sorry you guys are going through this. However my question is will paypal accept certified mail as proof? I was under the impression that for items under 250.00 only delivery confirmation is proof.

Steve

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Posted By: Richard L.

David,
If the del. conf. shows it was delivered, I don't see how you could lose, otherwise every dishonest person could say "never received" get a refund and have the merchandise, I don't think so.


Robert,
I typed in your del. conf. number at the USPS site and in your case, it only proves he created a shipping label, but NO proof it was sent, I would think you'll win on a claim also. Scammers are always looking for ways to make a dishonest buck.


edited: David, after re-reading the thread I see you sent cert. instead, this should be better, as a signature would be required at delivery.

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

It was a cool card, well it still is but I don't have it. Rob

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Posted By: Steve

I agree certified seems better but does anyone know if paypal accepts that as proof of delivery?


Also a while back i sent someone some cards via USPS with insurance and delivery confirmation. It was under 150.00, the buyer emailed me and claimed it never got to him. This same buyer also demanded i include insurance as he had a few problems with his mail being left on a doorstep. I insured the package and you guessed it it was stolen or whatever. luckily i had it insured and del. confirmed. I checked with my postmaster and he confirmed it was delivered. i simply filled out a USPS form and mailed it to the buyer for him to deal with. I never heard back from him after that.


Steve

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Posted By: Frank

Hello,
Good luck with the problem buyer. There are many of them. My lawyer has stated delivery confirmation should be sufficient but I tend to make the buyer sign something.

I have had some issues with a few buyers. Mostly just deadbeat bidders but there are some real problem bidders out there. My suggestions are communicate only through ebay, send a copy to yourself as well for your documentation. Your obligation is to complete the sale. You are required to ship it. If you have data confirming it your obligation is done. If they are not satisfied once they get the item you can chose to offer a refund or not. Many sellers offer full refunds with shipping. You are not under any obligation to provide any additional materials or money to the buyer if they keep the item. If they received the card (you have proof of this) and don't return it they have completed the ebay contract and have no grounds to complain. Some buyers at this point carry out feedback extortion. This is when you try to get money off or get additional items. This is against ebay rules and is grounds for dismissal for ebay but I find ebay slow to remove anyone, buyer or seller.

You have feedback as a tool to document your issues, use it carefully though. I currently have my lawyer reviewing feedback that is not true. This can result in legal action. So be careful with your word choices and if you have proof you should be set.

I find Ebay very slow to deal with issues and honestly not really interested. It seems they like the fees more. I have had several buyers who had several ids that had issues with all kinds of merchandise. They fall into a pattern because ebay does not do anything with it.

Also ebay and paypal is more protective of buyers than sellers. Try filing a dispute on paypal. You can't, the buyer has to initiate the process.

Good luck, just document everything carefully and completely. I feel you are safe as you have info documenting you upheld your end of the contract. Don't expect the buyer to be rational and reasonable as there are just some people you can't please.

Frank

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Posted By: Bob

My experience with paypal and delivery confirmation is this: I shipped some rare books (about $400 value) to an ebay winner. He said he never got them. He had paid with Paypal. I tracked my delivery confirmation online and it showed they were delivered to his local post office in his city and picked up. Paypal refunded his money, took the money out of my bank account. I screamed bloody murder. After a month Paypal said because I was such a good and longstanding customer they were doing a one time deal and refunded the money back to me and my bank. This was about 3 years ago. I since have learned delivery confirmations don't mean squat to paypal if the person just lies and says they didn't get the package, regardless of what the delivery confirmation number shows. I still use dcs on each and every package but I often slap on insurance even if the buyer didn't pay for it, on larger purchases, to protect myself.
What a world...

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

This "non-delivery" issue is a big one. That is why it is worthwhile to purchase insurance. The Postal Inspection Service is tracking people who file multiple insurance claims. Sometimes a carrier or clerk will work with someone to "lose" insured packages. Let's say that I send someone a parcel that is insured for $200. The mail carrier (the same things are happening with ups), has an agreement with the buyer. The package will disappear with no scans or signatures. I would have to file an insurance claim with usps to reimburse the buyer, and the carrier and the buyer would end up with a free $200 card.

The same type of scam is happening with ebay/paypal postage. I sell you a $200 card and you pay for it with PayPal. I go to the PayPal website and print a shipping label for Priority Mail with $200 insurance. Then I tear up the label and never send the package. After a while you contact me and complain that you didn't receive the card. I file an insurance claim, reimburse the buyer and end up with the $200 card. I'm out a few bucks for the postage that I spent on the shipping label, but that is all.

There are many variations on these scams, and the Postal Inspectors are overwhelmed with cases. The easiest scam of all is when I purchase a card from you, I pay for the card and you send it to me with postage, but without insurance or delivery confirmation. There is no way to track that particular package, so if I tell you that I didn't receive it you really don't have any choice other to refund my money or receive negative feedback.

The upside is that within the next couple of years the Postal Service would like to include more "transparency" with packages. Every package will be bar-coded and every package will be scanned at each step along the way. You will know when the package left the post office, when it ran through the machines at each processing plant along the way, when it arrived at your local post office, and when it was delivered. But this is still a few years away, so your best protection right now is to use one of the tracking services.

Rick

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Posted By: Matt

Frank - "If they are not satisfied once they get the item you can chose to offer a refund or not. Many sellers offer full refunds with shipping."

It all depends on why the buyer isn't satisfied - if he isn't satisfied because the seller hid something, such as back damage when they only pictured the front and said the card was clean then it's on the seller to make things right - at a minimum offering a full refund and covering return shipping. If this is the case, it may also make sense for the seller to offer a partial refund since the seller doesn't want to have to sell it again and it clearly isn't worth what the buyer paid for it. Either way, the seller may get a negative because hiding damage hoping the buyer won't return it and relying on the worst case scenario being you get your card back is a duplicitous business model.

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Posted By: John

If the value was UNDER 250.00 and you used Delivery Confirmation and he files a claim, he will LOSE if it shows as being delivered.

If the value is OVER 250.00 you must use Signature Confirmation to conform to paypal's idiot ic rules even if you ship it registered.

I have had a couple of instances of people claiming they didn't receive cards and every time when I replied with the results of punching the Del. Con # into the USPS site along with a scan of my receipt and slip, they've never replied.

I always kept my receipts for a few months and paperclipped them into separate weeks worth of ebay auctions.

Saved me at least a couple of times.

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Posted By: Frank

Matt,
If a seller wants to offer a partial refund that is their right to do that. As I said many will offer refunds ( I said full with shipping but it could be partial too). I don't know what ebay does about fees for partial refunds. By ebay rules they are not obligated to offer any refund. That is where ebay protection comes in. I have not used it but hear it is a fiasco. Ebay encourages sellers to offer a refund.

My opinion is ebay wants the buyer and seller to figure it out on their own, so ebay doesn't have to do anything and doesn't lose any fees. I don't think they are as aggressive with troubled buyers and sellers as they should be but again think it is more about $$$$.

I just encourage buyers and sellers to clearly document everything. You can never be too careful as there are some people who all they do is figure out how they are scamming on ebay, be it a buyer or seller.

Hope the problem cases work out for everyone.

Frank

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Posted By: Matt

"By ebay rules they are not obligated to offer any refund."

If a seller objectively misrepresents a card they most certainly are obligated to offer a full refund and cover return shipping costs.

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Posted By: Frank

Matt
from ebay
"On occasion, a situation may arise where the best option is to issue a refund to your buyer. When you decide to make a refund to the buyer, we recommend you contact your buyer to arrange the best method for granting a refund."

They don't force you to make a refund. They strongly recommend it. As I stated if a refund is not offered and an issue remains that is where ebay protection comes in. I have no experience from ebay protection but again have had people tell me that they are not satisfied with the outcome.

Do I agree with you. Yes. If something is not right a full refund with shipping should be offered as you stated. That is what I stated above in an earlier post. I just don't agree with ebay policy on this as it seems you don't as well.

I agree as I stated before, I think ebay is to lax on troubled buyers and sellers.


Frank

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Posted By: Matt

I'm pretty sure ebay agrees if the item is "significantly not as described" then the seller should refund shipping charges and pay for return shipping as well. I believe what you quoted is in a case where the item is as described but a return is desired for some other reason. Legally, in a case where the seller sells X and delivers Y, the seller should be obligated to assume all costs to make the duped buyer whole again.

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Posted By: Frank

Matt,
I agree with you, can I say it clearer. You must prove to ebay that the item does not meet the description, they don't want to get into that. Again that is where ebay protection comes in.

Again I agree with you but still feel like I am going in circles. Will stop now as don't find this productive.

Sorry about the thread hijack I am done and out of it. Again hope everyone with issues on ebay get them worked out. Have a good holiday.

Karma will get them.

Frank

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

Still nobody answers my question, how does the higher powers  allow a person with so much negative feedback to still sell on ebay? Rob

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Posted By: Steve

Big ill try and answer you question in one word.....Fees


Could someone answer mine?.....Is certified proof for items sent under 250.00?

I think Goose tried to but still no mention if Paypal will accept certified as proof.


Goose was correct IMO under 250.00 del conf. over 250.00 a signature is required.


I think that is why Tbob had a problem, his sale was over 250.00 and he did not get a signature.


Steve