Casey Stengel and Dave Roberts...

[michael3322]

The collapse of the Dodgers in the playoffs after a 111-win season and renewed calls for Dave Roberts to go got me thinking of Casey Stengel. Here's a crazy idea: Maybe he gets too little credit for managing the Yanks to five straight WS victories, despite his incredible line-up. The Dodgers have had top-tier line-ups in recent years, but have only claimed 1 WS.

Roberts' Dodgers
LAD 2016 91 71 .562 Lost NLCS
LAD 2017 104 58 .642 Lost WS
LAD 2018 92 71 .564 Lost WS
LAD 2019 106 56 .654 Lost NLDS
LAD 2020 43 17 .717 WS*
LAD 2021 106 56 .654 Lost NLCS
LAD 2022 111 51 .685 Lost NLDS

Stengel's Yankees over 5 year-stretch
NYY 1949 97 57 .630 WS
NYY 1950 98 56 .636 WS
NYY 1951 98 56 .636 WS
NYY 1952 95 59 .617 WS
NYY 1953 99 52 .656 WS

From Wikipedia: "Stengel remains the only manager to lead his club to victory in five consecutive World Series. How much credit he is due for that accomplishment is controversial, due to the talent on the Yankee teams he managed—Total Baseball deemed that the Yankees won only six games more than expected during the Stengel years, given the number of runs scored and allowed. According to Bak, "the argument—even among some Yankees—was that the team was so good anybody could manage it to a title". Rizzuto stated, "You or I could have managed and gone away for the summer and still won those pennants""

But maybe it isn't too easy to just let the great ones play and win the WS. There are so many moments where managers make a difference by taking a pitcher out or pinch-hitting at a key moment.

Is Roberts worse than he is given credit for? Is Stengel better?

Would love your thoughts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yankees might not have been so successful if they had to go through the playoffs. Whole different era.

[FrankWakefield]

The playoff distinction seems applicable.

Casey managed in the minors. He had helped to get Jim Turner up to the majors in 1937, having managed him in the minors. Casey had Milkman Jim as his pitching coach with those Championship Yankee teams. Casey was in baseball forever, he knew a right smart about the game. I think it's too easy to underestimate what he accomplished.

In addition to the playoff system as a difference, the players are different. Current (modern) players have agents. They have idiosynchrasies, attitudes, and demands that would have been non existent back in Casey's day. Seems to me that Roberts is better attuned to deal with that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Stengel learned much from McGraw, not a bad manager to learn from. Where one rates him is of course subjective, but it seems to me it can't be too far from the top.

[FrankWakefield]

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1665974412

[Peter_Spaeth]

My Stengel can't compare to a T210, but it's a nice card.

[JimC]

+1

[raulus]

Originally Posted by michael3322

The Dodgers have had top-tier line-ups in recent years, but have only claimed 1 WS.

Here's a hot take:

60 games does not a season make. Dodgers must vacate!!!

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by michael3322

The collapse of the Dodgers in the playoffs after a 111-win season and renewed calls for Dave Roberts to go got me thinking of Casey Stengel. Here's a crazy idea: Maybe he gets too little credit for managing the Yanks to five straight WS victories, despite his incredible line-up. The Dodgers have had top-tier line-ups in recent years, but have only claimed 1 WS.

Roberts' Dodgers
LAD 2016 91 71 .562 Lost NLCS
LAD 2017 104 58 .642 Lost WS
LAD 2018 92 71 .564 Lost WS
LAD 2019 106 56 .654 Lost NLDS
LAD 2020 43 17 .717 WS*
LAD 2021 106 56 .654 Lost NLCS
LAD 2022 111 51 .685 Lost NLDS

Stengel's Yankees over 5 year-stretch
NYY 1949 97 57 .630 WS
NYY 1950 98 56 .636 WS
NYY 1951 98 56 .636 WS
NYY 1952 95 59 .617 WS
NYY 1953 99 52 .656 WS

From Wikipedia: "Stengel remains the only manager to lead his club to victory in five consecutive World Series. How much credit he is due for that accomplishment is controversial, due to the talent on the Yankee teams he managed—Total Baseball deemed that the Yankees won only six games more than expected during the Stengel years, given the number of runs scored and allowed. According to Bak, "the argument—even among some Yankees—was that the team was so good anybody could manage it to a title". Rizzuto stated, "You or I could have managed and gone away for the summer and still won those pennants""

But maybe it isn't too easy to just let the great ones play and win the WS. There are so many moments where managers make a difference by taking a pitcher out or pinch-hitting at a key moment.

Is Roberts worse than he is given credit for? Is Stengel better?

Would love your thoughts.

Stengel was not handcuffed by Andrew Friedman running the team with analytics like Roberts has had. Baseball is no longer a game it is a business.

[BobC]

Stengel also benefitted from the pre-free agency times. He didn't have to worry about anyone leaving.

[Lucas00]

On one of my auction house dives I found this photo of Casey from 1913. No idea what he's doing but I thought it was funny and had to share.