T206 Honus Wagner - Not For Sale

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I have seen crazier things than a card that looks like this ending up in a 3 or 4 holder. From the 1 picture I've seen I agree 2 would be the most likely grade, assuming the card had not been altered.

It WAS altered. OP stated so.

Then, unaltered.

So, no, it has not been altered.

It is alterless.
Without alter.
It has no alter.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by mrvster

restored......then unrestored....

I have been following this card for almost 5 years.....

its been worked 2 x over......

so Jonny is it authentic? or should it receive a numerical grade????

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by xplainer

It WAS altered. OP stated so.

Then, unaltered.

So, no, it has now, not been altered.

Right I guess I should have said had it not been altered I would assume a grade of 2. Although given the context of the thread my meaning should have been clear from my previous post.

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Right I guess I should have said had it not been altered I would assume a grade of 2. Although given the context of the thread my meaning should have been clear from my previous post.

I understand. Had it not...

[vintagetoppsguy]

To the OP, you should post a pic of yourself holding the card. It worked out well for this guy...

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

This, I would think. Undoing "paint" is going to leave some traces of paint or damage regardless on a very thin and delicate, 100+ year old piece of cardboard.

My point exactly.


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[mrvster]

and all....


I have followed this card very close , like I said , for many years.....


CARD SHOULD BE GRADED AS "ALTERED"


reasoning:


once a card has been tampered with (beside trimming) "altered" by human or otherwise.......



first time:


card had been "altered" the first time when extensive coloring had been added, and especially around the ear.....some "paper"(I believe) was added...and other major altering items performed on the card....

second time:

card was "un altered" by "altering" it again being reversing the original restoration......


this is EXTREMELY unfortunate as now no one really knows truly how much this card has been worked on....


it breaks my heart to see a piece of history being tampered with extensively....

my friend and board member mike s has held this a few times...


if you are going to drop serious cash on something like this, original in any condition , is the way to go....because no one truly knows what has been done and undone to this card...

CARD IS 100 % ALTERED .....AUTHENTIC, BUT NONE THE LESS ALTERED

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by mrvster

and all....





I have followed this card very close , like I said , for many years.....





CARD SHOULD BE GRADED AS "ALTERED"





reasoning:





once a card has been tampered with (beside trimming) "altered" by human or otherwise.......







first time:





card had been "altered" the first time when extensive coloring had been added, and especially around the ear.....some "paper"(I believe) was added...and other major altering items performed on the card....



second time:



card was "un altered" by "altering" it again being reversing the original restoration......





this is EXTREMELY unfortunate as now no one really knows truly how much this card has been worked on....





it breaks my heart to see a piece of history being tampered with extensively....



my friend and board member mike s has held this a few times...





if you are going to drop serious cash on something like this, original in any condition , is the way to go....because no one truly knows what has been done and undone to this card...



CARD IS 100 % ALTERED .....AUTHENTIC, BUT NONE THE LESS ALTERED

This is precisely the point I was making earlier. 100% altered. What once was done cannot be undone.


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[mrvster]

basically an "attempted" reverse on another "franken wagner"


UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

leave these cards alone!

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by mrvster

basically an "attempted" reverse on another "franken wagner"





UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH



leave these cards alone!

+1


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[xplainer]

https://www.cardboardconnection.com/...rail-hits-ebay

Have look, at this from a few years ago.
Been floating around for a few, it seems.

Crack it out, and send to SGC and ask for a “A” designation.

New card, new game.......

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by xplainer

It WAS altered. OP stated so.

Then, unaltered.

So, no, it has not been altered.

It is alterless.
Without alter.
It has no alter.

I believe that the past tense of alter means at some point in the past it was changed, regardless of the change but I am an English teacher

Unaltered and unrestored are not words I would use.

It was altered to make it look better then altered again to attempt to make it look like it did before it was altered the first time.

2 times it was altered.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Thanks for the link. This could be their problems in selling it. Back when the card was worth 150k they wanted 300k. When the card was worth 250k they wanted 450k. Now that the card is worth $420k (based on the December sale) they want $700k. The card is never for sale at current market value. Maybe in 5 years it will be worth $700k... and they’ll want $1.3m. Seems to be the mo.

Originally Posted by xplainer

https://www.cardboardconnection.com/...rail-hits-ebay

Have look, at this from a few years ago.
Been floating around for a few, it seems.

Crack it out, and send to SGC and ask for a “A” designation.

New card, new game.......

[frankbmd]

Does a realteror sell both heromes for sale and vacerant lots as well as Wagerners?

[LincolnVT]

The card is what it is. The guy wants to sell it. I don't think it's fair for people to go back and forth and make all sorts of editorial comments on a BST post. No one in their right mind is going to spend 700k on something w/o doing some research. This would turn me off from wanting to sell a major piece on Net 54. Just my 2 cents.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by LincolnVT

The card is what it is. The guy wants to sell it. I don't think it's fair for people to go back and forth and make all sorts of editorial comments on a BST post. No one in their right mind is going to spend 700k on something w/o doing some research. This would turn me off from wanting to sell a major piece on Net 54. Just my 2 cents.

It would turn me off from trying to do so somewhat less than competently, that's for sure...

[sycks22]

I just saw that there are already 12 pages on something that was posted today. It was a fun read. Any Baltimore News Ruth's laying around?

[xplainer]

Sarcasim is hard to do in print. Sorry.

[mrvster]

totally get it.....

but, trying to sell something such a high profile card, putting on BST, and all the knowledge here....

just a no brainer that the seasoned collectors are going to put a seal of approval or not...

whether this is frowned upon, if an investor or even a collector in our community pulls the trigger, its good to know that we care in our community and are proponents of full disclosure....we actually care...

this is our net54 environment ,

if what we were stating was incorrect, than it would be addressed....


when collectors want to "slip" it into an sgc for a possible "Auth" instead of "altered"....there is a huge difference....

unknowing collectors might not have the "full scoop" if you will...

I personally would take an auth card 10000 more than an altered one......

just made that decision on a cobb recently...

once there is evidence of tampering(besides trimming)....its a game changer/ deal breaker for me, and a lot of others....

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by LincolnVT

The card is what it is. The guy wants to sell it. I don't think it's fair for people to go back and forth and make all sorts of editorial comments on a BST post. No one in their right mind is going to spend 700k on something w/o doing some research. This would turn me off from wanting to sell a major piece on Net 54. Just my 2 cents.

truth of the matter, Ethan...is that this place is'nt the cozy, friendly place it once was...there are new members joining daily who may not have the knowledge or ethical backbone as many on here do. Additionally we are starting to see bad fakes/reprints for sale here on the BST. I don't expect or like this trend.

So as a community here we are the closest thing to a police as there is. I have many numerous friends here and have actually met them at nationals/shows, etc. This place isn't the wild wild west and I'd hate to see it become that.

So if someone posts bullshit on here...they're going to get called out on it.

The BST isn't the best venue to sell high profile/mega high buck cards anyway!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

truth of the matter, Ethan...is that this place is'nt the cozy, friendly place it once was...there are new members joining daily who may not have the knowledge or ethical backbone as many on here do. Additionally we are starting to see bad fakes/reprints for sale here on the BST. I don't expect or like this trend.

So as a community here we are the closest thing to a police as there is. I have many numerous friends here and have actually met them at nationals/shows, etc. This place isn't the wild wild west and I'd hate to see it become that.

So if someone posts bullshit on here...they're going to get called out on it.

The BST isn't the best venue to sell high profile/mega high buck cards anyway!

I don't know. I think if he had posted 600DPI scans and been clear and concise in his first effort, this might be a great place to try and sell the card. As other's have said, when you're trying to get roughly half a million from someone you might want to take the time to do it right the on your first try.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I don't know. I think if he had posted 600DPI scans and been clear and concise in his first effort, this might be a great place to try and sell the card. As other's have said, when you're trying to get roughly half a million from someone you might want to take the time to do it right the on your first try.

agreed...and if he were upfront and honest about it's history...maybe this would be a good venue to sell such a card.

[ullmandds]

What I meant I suppose...but didn't state very well is that this is the last place someone should come to try to pull the wool over over our eyes relating to vintage cards...the knowledge and experience here is unparalleled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I highly doubt any of those asking for more pictures in the thread are actually interested in buying this card. If I was in the market for a 600 or 700k altered Wagner I would have contacted the seller directly and asked for better scans. And if I were selling this I also would not waste my time answering the trolls.

You are or were in sales, right? Did you just blow off people you didn't think were serious buyers or were you respectful to everyone?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

The ONLY way that card gets a 3 or 3.5 is if Mr. Magoo is the grader- careful, your credibility is in question....

Zero is overstating the chance that card, if unaltered, would 3, IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Thanks for the link. This could be their problems in selling it. Back when the card was worth 150k they wanted 300k. When the card was worth 250k they wanted 450k. Now that the card is worth $420k (based on the December sale) they want $700k. The card is never for sale at current market value. Maybe in 5 years it will be worth $700k... and they’ll want $1.3m. Seems to be the mo.

Sounds like a perfect fit for an ebay museum I mean store.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You are or were in sales, right? Did you just blow off people you didn't think were serious buyers or were you respectful to everyone?

Respectful yes, but if someone making say 40k a year wants to go test drive a $500k Ferrari or Rolls Royce I don't think the response will be sure let me get the keys.

[RedsFan1941]

nice card

[MVSNYC]

All-

I cannot confirm who the exact seller is, but I can confirm...

About 6-7 years ago, I personally saw this card for sale in Gotta Have It's retail shop on East 57th St in NYC. I believe Pete was the shop owner, and selling the card for $350-400K. I saw it myself in their shop (during which time, Johnny [mrvster] & I conversed about it several times). The card was restored years prior, and sold in a Mastro's auction. Later, the restoration was "reversed", but since it is virtually impossible for someone (PSA, etc) to determine if 100% of anything added to the card was fully removed, it was labeled Altered.

I cannot confirm who is posting this, but like I said, everything I said above it fact.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by GottaHaveRockandRoll

I just said a PSA 2 is worth 850k+ not 600k. The card would be graded a PSA 3 or 3.5 at least

What? I never commented on what you believe the monetary value of any particular grade would be, nor am I contesting that...but ok.

This is all over the place. In the early posts we are told the card sans the altering would be a 2. Then in the middle at some point your tune changed to it being a 4. And just now you are at “3 or 3.5 at least.”???

All very confusing.



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[LincolnVT]

If someone is going to call "bullshit" on a card, then they should do exactly that...rather than nibbling around the edges. Being critical of what someone else has to offer is easy. We are all adults and able to make our own decisions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Respectful yes, but if someone making say 40k a year wants to go test drive a $500k Ferrari or Rolls Royce I don't think the response will be sure let me get the keys.

It's a little easier to post a picture or answer a question than to take someone out for a test drive though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

What? I never commented on what you believe the monetary value of any particular grade would be, nor am I contesting that...but ok.

This is all over the place. In the early posts we are told the card sans the altering would be a 2. Then in the middle at some point your tune changed to it being a 4. And just now you are at “3 or 3.5 at least.”???

All very confusing.



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As one of my favorite law school profs used to say, it's not confusing, it's CONFUSED.

[Tao_Moko]

Am I the only one that has some questions about authenticity? The corner wear jumps out at me and maybe it's just poor image quality but the left side and lower left of the slab look ghosty(new technical term). OP - I am not a potential buyer, just someone breaking forum rules with my post. High res images will help your cause greatly. Good luck.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As one of my favorite law school profs used to say, it's not confusing, it's CONFUSED.

That too...


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[Leon]

I agree with most of what you said but I sold a 52k card here and did quite well with it. I would do it again too if the opportunity arises. A great looking, real with no stories, 100k card would do fine here. ANd if it didn't sell there is no harm or fee...and if it does sell there is still no harm or fee. But no, it won't be totally the wild, wild west but at the same time everything that can be let go does get let go.

Originally Posted by ullmandds

truth of the matter, Ethan...is that this place is'nt the cozy, friendly place it once was...there are new members joining daily who may not have the knowledge or ethical backbone as many on here do. Additionally we are starting to see bad fakes/reprints for sale here on the BST. I don't expect or like this trend.

So as a community here we are the closest thing to a police as there is. I have many numerous friends here and have actually met them at nationals/shows, etc. This place isn't the wild wild west and I'd hate to see it become that.

So if someone posts bullshit on here...they're going to get called out on it.

The BST isn't the best venue to sell high profile/mega high buck cards anyway!

[orly57]

And, the “World’s Most Patient Consignor In History Award” goes to....

[dictoresno]

just so you know, the OP of this thread raised some eyebrows on blowout forums attempting to sell something shady, and then was PMing people claiming to be a consignor under the same name as their username and soliciting people to sell their cards through him. gotta dig up the thread now.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You are or were in sales, right? Did you just blow off people you didn't think were serious buyers or were you respectful to everyone?

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Respectful yes, but if someone making say 40k a year wants to go test drive a $500k Ferrari or Rolls Royce I don't think the response will be sure let me get the keys.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a little easier to post a picture or answer a question than to take someone out for a test drive though.

If the OP came in with the Wagner, which car would he be able to test drive?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

truth of the matter, Ethan...is that this place is'nt the cozy, friendly place it once was...there are new members joining daily who may not have the knowledge or ethical backbone as many on here do. Additionally we are starting to see bad fakes/reprints for sale here on the BST. I don't expect or like this trend.

So as a community here we are the closest thing to a police as there is. I have many numerous friends here and have actually met them at nationals/shows, etc. This place isn't the wild wild west and I'd hate to see it become that.

So if someone posts bullshit on here...they're going to get called out on it.

The BST isn't the best venue to sell high profile/mega high buck cards anyway!

Where else is he supposed to try to sell it if he has the card on consignment? I'd list it here and Ebay and hope for a legitimate offer or two. Starting a new thread with a picture or two would probably be a good idea.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Where else is he supposed to try to sell it if he has the card on consignment? I'd list it here and Ebay and hope for a legitimate offer or two. Starting a new thread with a picture or two would probably be a good idea.

well...based on owner's history of attempting to sell the card at approx 1/3 more than it's value...along with this particular cards hitory of alterations...I'd say the owner isn't really interested in selling at this time...so I see this whole thing as a "fishing" expedition. I know historically that most wagners that do sell sell at auction...and this is the route I'd pursue if I were selling one.

And I certainly wouldn't consign a vintage baseball card holy grail with someone who specialized in music memorabilia!!!!!

To me the fishy nature of this whole thing is why it's on the bst...otherwise it'd be in a major auction house.

[dictoresno]

here's his other sales thread that got him banned on blowout. was very vague about the lot then solicited people over PM to consign. I personally wouldn't buy from him.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1272803

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by dictoresno

here's his other sales thread that got him banned on blowout. was very vague about the lot then solicited people over PM to consign. I personally wouldn't buy from him.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1272803

Good grief, one page is enough to make you just shake your head.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Just wondering if anyone has called gottahaveit to see if this guy is legit? After reading this and the blowout forum - I would say that I wouldn’t put this guy in charge of selling anything... certainly not millions of dollars worth of memorabilia. Gottahaveit is currently hosting auctions and selling items for several hundred thousand dollars. I’m sure their sales people are highly knowledgeable professionals who have some experience. They certainly have the ability to sell this themselves and must have sports connections. If he works there they may want to know the reputation he is putting out there for the company.

[jchcollins]

I see we are still waiting for the promised hi-res scans. #Yawn

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

well...based on owner's history of attempting to sell the card at approx 1/3 more than it's value...along with this particular cards hitory of alterations...I'd say the owner isn't really interested in selling at this time...so I see this whole thing as a "fishing" expedition. I know historically that most wagners that do sell sell at auction...and this is the route I'd pursue if I were selling one.

And I certainly wouldn't consign a vintage baseball card holy grail with someone who specialized in music memorabilia!!!!!

To me the fishy nature of this whole thing is why it's on the bst...otherwise it'd be in a major auction house.

Something is off for sure. And while a major auction house would seem the best place for this card it's hard to justify collecting a consignment fee and then sending the card to REA.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Something is off for sure. And while a major auction house would seem the best place for this card it's hard to justify collecting a consignment fee and then sending the card to REA.

well seeing as the likelihood of the card selling is pretty much nil...no consignment fee to worry about...and i'm sure any of the big AH's would give you a piece of the action on a wags?

[dictoresno]

he did the same thing "I don't know how to post pictures lol" on here and on blowout. if you work for a consignor, you know how important pictures are help sell your item and to verify you have the item.

any 13 yr old can figure out how to post pictures on the internet, lame excuse. and don't try to sell a card worth over half a mil without researching how to do so professionally. I mean come on. not to mention, stories and values keep changing depending on how members challenge him on different details and aspects.

[jchcollins]

And the responses on Blowout are all of the exact same tone as what he got here. There is the way a professional auction outfit would list something, and the way an ebay amateur would (on his Jordan lot) with all the "Unknown! Who knows what could be in this lot!" trying to get suckers to bite.

Smells nothing but fishy to me. If it is real then I feel sorry for whoever consigned a legit Wagner to that organization.

[jchcollins]

Dupe post deleted.