1866 Baseball Cards

[Kudbegud]

These belonged to my grandfather. The Wapellos, of Rock Island Illinois, were named after a local Indian Chief. Quite the hitting team, they once beat a rival, Union, 118 to 7 on August 25, 1866. Remember, no gloves in those days, so catching a fly ball could be painful. I was once told that these a better described as cabinet cards. I was also told the technical definition of a baseball card includes the players name or more being part of the manufacturing process. On these, the players name is hand written on the back along with his position. A couple have descriptions like "fast" and "very fast". One has a 2¢ US Bank Check stamp canceled in 1867. I would like to learn more about this and your opinions.
I have had these since the early 60's after my grandfather passed away. There are 13 cards. Overall card dimensions are 2 7/16 x 3 15/16 and the photo 2 3/16 x 3 7/16, which fits right in to D. Bergin's suggestion and the Wikipedia link from scooter729. They were sealed air tight in Seal-A-Meal plastic bags in the mid 70's and have remained so ever since. I photographed them this past week through the plastic so you may see some artifacts from that. The photos and an article from the April 12, 1943 Rock Island Argus newspaper about the team and the cards has been posted in my Photobucket album. Here's a link to that page: http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/...eball%20Cards/
My plan is to donate these to the Rock Island Historical Society. I think they would be a nice addition to the museum and be more accessible to be enjoyed by more people. I'd be very interested to hear what you think, what ever you can tell me and your evaluation of these cards. What value would you place on them so I can describe them fully to the Historical Society?
A sample:

[D. Bergin]

Look like CDV's. Those are incredible. Thanks for sharing.

[Kudbegud]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Look like CDV's. Those are incredible. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for looking. I'm ignorant of specialized card terms. A CDV is...???

[scooter729]

CDV = carte de visite. The photography method for such pictures of the 1860s era. Amazing!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_de_visite

[Kudbegud]

Originally Posted by scooter729

CDV = carte de visite. The photography method for such pictures of the 1860s era. Amazing!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_de_visite

Thanks scooter. Interesting.

[GaryPassamonte]

What you have are baseball carte de visites. 10 players in uniform, 3 in street clothes, and one unusual image that appears to show trophy balls.
The 10 player in uniform cards would sell for about $400-$500 each with the street clothes players less. The " trophy ball " card would be difficult to evaluate, but I would guess maybe a couple hundred dollars. The entire collection would be in the $4000. - $5000. range. If you change your mind about donating, I'd love to have them.

[Kudbegud]

I appreciate your comments Gary. I'm pretty set on donating them, but who knows, the museum may not be interested. That could happen.

[GaryPassamonte]

It is very honorable to keep this collection together because of its historical significance. Please don't hesitate to contact me through this board with any questions, as baseball CdVs are exactly what I collect.

[rhettyeakley]

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this issue but I strongly advise against donating items to museums/historical societies/etc. UNLESS there is strong indication that they will actually be on display (permanently). There are so many great treasures that have been donated that never see the light of day and languish in a box or a back vault forever, and also keep in mind that the museum can and will sell things whenever it wants or needs to. Thinking of the Burdick collection (for example) always gets me upset as nobody really gets to appreciate it in its present location and they have a lame display of a few cards and that is all. Honestly, I think the collectors of the world appreciate this stuff much more than any historical society/museum ever could.

Obviously, if the item being donated is of MAJOR historical significance and will always be on display then I have no problem donating those types of items. A large or small baseball card collection rarely ever fits into that situation wheras a T206 Wagner probably would.

Just my 2 cents,
-Rhett

[barrysloate]

Kudbegud- that's a very nice collection of CdV's. It is not unusual to find an image of a baseball player from the 1860's- there are hundreds of them extant. But having a whole team together is very unusual, and therefore the group is special. Gary's assessment of their value is pretty right-on, and I can tell you he is an expert on these. I would probably add a little value based on the completeness of the group; and the one with the five trophy balls is really cool. Those were baseballs that were kept in a trophy case in the team's clubhouse. Although you may not be able to read them, the teams, scores, and game dates have been added in black paint.

It is always a generous gift to give something like that to a library or museum, but it is worth reconsidering. Unless they can promise you they will be displayed, they may end up locked away in a drawer somewhere. And because they are small, they are subject to theft. So it may not be the best thing to give them away, but that's your call. Whatever you decide, that's an historically interesting group.

[barrysloate]

Rhett and I were typing the same thing at the same time. We both feel donating them to a museum has its drawbacks.

[Rob D.]

To follow up on what Rhett and Barry accurately said, maybe an alternative to donating the cards to the museum would be to sell them (if you're so inclined), then make a monetary donation.

[Leon]

Personally I think donating them, with a written guarantee that they will be displayed (in some certain way), would be best. Short of that, the other suggestions already given should be considered. I concur with Barry in his thoughts on value.

[Kudbegud]

gary:
Thank you very much. I am rethinking my donation plan. You will certainly be consulted. I appreciate your expertise.

rhett:
I didn't think of this. You are right though. Unless the curator has an interest or there is community awareness and a desire to view these, they could, and probably would, end up in a box in the back room, or sold. I wanted to share a part of the history of the county that is fading away so quickly.

barry:
I posted a photo of the back of that trophy ball card on the Photobucket page. In the photo you can almost make out the date of the union game. It was mentioned in the article but I couldn't find it in the paper when I had the microfilm archive sent here through the Maui library from the Rock Island library back in the mid 80's. Now wouldn't having that actual display board be a collectable? Great minds think alike Barry...you and Rhett, brothers from different mothers.

Rob:
That's an excellent thought. Thanks.

[Kudbegud]

Leon:
This is why I posted here. To get thoughts, ideas and honest evaluation of what I have and what my plan was. My head is being opened and good stuff poured in.

[joeadcock]

Great stuff.

[Kudbegud]

Thanks Joe

[oldjudge]

Wonderful group. I concur with some of the prior comments that, unless the museum guarantees that the CdVs will be displayed, I would sell them and possibly make a donation to the museum. I would think that if you consigned these to a major action house (REA, Goodwin, Legendary) that you would do quite a bit better than $4000.

Jay

[slidekellyslide]

That cdv of the trophy balls is awesome! Thanks for sharing these...I agree with everyone in this thread that they should not be donated. Museums sell stuff all the time. Sell them to someone who will keep them together.

[prewarsports]

I really love those images. I have owned/sold several CDV's and those are some of the best I have seen and the fact that each player is identified is a HUGE plus. I also think the photo with the Trophy Balls is fantastic. It is hard to place a value on something like that, but I agree with Jay and think these would probably do VERY well at a major auction as a group with the history behind it. Cool stuff and thanks for sharing.

Rhys

[ChiefBenderForever]

I would sell them. They won't be appreciated by anyone in the public like they will be by a collector. Also a good chance they will end up stolen or sold anyways and another chance the society will close due to lack of funds and get sold off or again taken by someone in the society/museaum. The American thing to do would be to capitalize on your good fortune and take the cash, no one is going to do you any favors or give a second thought to your act of kindness so take the money and have some fun.

[kllrbee]

Those are fantastic!

Being from Illinois and a railroader for the last 16 years, I know a little about your area. Not familiar with the museum, but I do know that the area is a signifigant stomping ground for rail nuts.

It wouldnt surprise me if you donated those that the museum would turn around and sell them in order to obtain more railroad memoribilia cuz that is the draw of the area.

Of course, they are yours and you should do what makes you happy, but I personally would not donate to the museum. If you were set on donating, maybe there is somewhere that would be more appropriate for baseball history than the local museum.

Good luck in whatever u decide!!

[autograf]

Seems like it's a near unanimous stand......high quality photos of the photos would be fine for the museum too......I'm with Jay that I think the value would be north of $5k. I think with the completeness a nice premium would be added. And there are many collectors of such photos. The large auction houses mentioned would do great justice to selling them on your behalf.......fantastic stuff. I like the CDV of the balls the best. It's a much more interesting item.......thanks for sharing them....

[Kawika]

Howzit Kudbegud-
I don't have a strong opinion either way what the RI Hist Society might or might not do with your CDVs. There is the risk they could stick them in the basement or sell them; they also might be delighted to have them and would lament the lost opportunity of community exposure were you to sell them. Why not loan them? Perhaps they could put together a temporary exhibit.

In case you are not aware, your inquiry to this Board was met by some of the hobby's heavy hitters (myself definitely not one of them) so you are getting some very knowledgeable advice. Good luck with whatever you choose to do. Your intent is noble. Ua mau ke ea o ka aina i ka pono.

David McDonald
=kawika o ka pakipika=

[Kudbegud]

oldjudge:
I'm getting it. Rather than an Auction House, which I know nothing about, what do you think about the Buy-Sell-Trade forum here?

slidekellyslide:
Your right, they sell off stuff all the time for more acquisitions and opperating expenses.

Rhys:
Yeah, but which one? And how or who would determine if these were important or major? My head is spinning! I'm going to photograph the back of the rest and post them on Photobucket.

ChiefBenderForever:
I know a collector would appreciate them more. The great unwashed public would remain unaware of the history or that these cards even existed unless they stumbled in to the museum and saw them, if they were displayed for any length of time if at all.

kllrbee:
The Rock Island Line from the Johnny Cash song!! Roll RIL Rocket!! What were you thinking? The Baseball Hall Of Fame maybe? I can't think of any bigger.

[egbeachley]

I guess I will add to the chorus....if a museum gets them, nobody will ever enjoy them.

[Kudbegud]

autograf:
Yeah, it looks unanimous. But now, which way to go? Auction House? B-S-T? Private offer sale? Sheesh! I came in with what I thought was a simple plan and it looks like a bad plan

Kawika:
Aloha! Another great idea. I am so impressed by the knowledge, helpfulness and expertise of this forum. I have to thank forum member Whitehse for suggesting I post here after I posted on the Collectors Universe forum.
"Ua mau ke ea o ka aina i ka pono." This forum is also perpetuated in righteousness, isn't it.

[Kudbegud]

egbeachley:
Welcome to the majority opinion. It's gotta be right, right?

[barrysloate]

You can put them on BST, and it's free, but you have to be comfortable pricing them. Or you can auction them on this site too. While not every collector will see them enough already have that you won't have to be too concerned about leaving money on the table. Since you've had them since the 1960's, I wouldn't be too hasty with your decision.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Kudbegud

And how or who would determine if these were important or major? My head is spinning! I'm going to photograph the back of the rest and post them on Photobucket.

Kudbe, these ARE important and major.

[ChiefBenderForever]

You have a lot of options to sell, you could take offers and see what you get. Also any auction house would love to get these. Leon and Scott have a auction coming up sometime soon and I'm sure they would love to highlight these in their auction and you wouldn't have any worries at all going that route. I would think the best thing to do is keep them all in a group so whoever gets them can keep them together since they are such a historical piece of Americana history to our national pastime.

[19cbb]

Beautiful cartes!
Thanks for sharing...

I would go with an auction house.

[Jay Wolt]

Kudbegud instead of donating them, why not just keep them?
They are fantastic momentos from your grandfather and you & your family & friends
can enjoy them daily.

[Old Hoss]

These are really incredible photographs! If you decide to donate them, the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum would be a great spot for them.

The Hall of Fame would take great care of them and make the photographs available to all visitors who ask to see them. The Hall would store the works in a secure storage facility and use archival materials. And many passionate researchers and fans of 19th century baseball come through the Hall of Fame every year. Your photographs would be sure to catch many eyes there.

Also, as far as donating is concerned, you can restrict your gift to ensure that any museum that you donate to does not sell your photographs. This is pretty common in the museum world.

However, if you are interested in selling, please keep me in the loop. I also collect this material and would be very interested.

Thanks for sharing! Seeing these pictures made my night!
Charles

[bbcard1]

FWIW, I think they are pretty important and could go for a lot of money...it's not in my collecting interest, but for what it's worth:

Very nice copies / enlargements that could be displayed could serve the museum as well as the originals...This could probably be accomplished for less than $100.

If you have even minimal website skills (or wanted to slog your way though a few tutorials), you could do a nice website that would allow your holdings to be shared with everyone who might be interested.

Then you would be liberated to put them with an auction house which would probably yield a good bonus which you could use on something nice for your family. If you have kids or grandkids, I suggest blowing it on a Disney cruise. Did it once with a found 5 grand and never regretted it a bit. Perfect memories may family will have forever.

[spec]

Kudbegud, you have received a lot of expert and, I believe, well-meaning advice from this board. Overlooked, or at least downplayed, is the historical value of your CDVs, something I gather you grasped at the outset based on your instinct to donate them to the local historical society. These cards are an irreplaceable glimpse at a moment in the history of your family and your region. Whatever you choose to do with the collection, you ought to begin by visiting that historical society to assess their reaction. If they recognize the CDVs' significance, they might offer a variety of options ranging from buying them from you (likely with another donor's contribution), accepting them on loan or donation with strings attached or just photographing or scanning the cards for their permanent collection. That way your ancestor's treasured collection would be available to your community for generations. Further, I would suggest you contact the Society for American Baseball Research to locate a historian (perhaps someone local who could trace the players' backgrounds and eventual fates) who could use this collection as a stepping-off point in researching this team. The CDVs would make an excellent SABR journal article or monograph that would ensure your ancestor's place in baseball history. Baseball historian extraordinaire John Thorn is a frequent visitor to this board and might respond, or you could start by visiting with the SABR website, SABR.org. All of this can be done without surrendering the CDVs. If you do choose to sell the collection on the open market, they undoubtedly will pass into the hands of someone who will treasure them, but they also likely will be as inaccessible to public viewing as if they were in a museum basement.
Bob Richardson, longtime SABR member

[M's_Fan]

There has been a lot of great advice given so far. My advice will be about one area that has not been considered: Taxes.

If you sell the photos for cash, you will owe capital gains taxes on your gain from the sale. If you donate the proceeds to the museum you will get a tax deduction.

However, if instead of selling you donate the photos to the museum, you will be able to take a tax deduction for their full value. You will not owe any capital gains taxes.

For example, let's assume a value of $5,000. If you sell the photos for $5,000 and then make a $5,000 donation, you will owe capital gains taxes on the $5,000 but also qualify for a tax deduction of $5,000. A wash.

If you donate the cards to the museum, you owe no taxes and likely qualify for a $5,000 tax deduction.

So if you don't think the museum is appropriate to hold these photos, and are considering making a large donation to the museum, the best thing would be to donate the cards and have them guarantee they will sell the cards. The museum is likely a non-profit and won't owe any taxes on the sale either.

For these tax reasons many wealthy individuals make charitable donations of appreciated stock rather than cash.

However, if you wanted to donate only a part of the proceeds to the museum and pocket the rest, then it would make sense to sell them yourself and make a cash donation.

Obligatory disclaimer: This is not tax advice or form any relationship, see your own tax advisor.

[Kudbegud]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Kudbe, these ARE important and major.

Wow Dan, I knew these were unusual. And that they were earlier than others I've seen mention before. I'm surprised and delighted at the reception they have received. Important and major, amazing!

[Golf History]

One suggestion I have not seen here and based on you initial post and subsequent ones might be of some importance to you. Make high resolution scans of the front and the back of them all. That way you can preserve the history if they get lock in the back of a museum or get squirreled away in a private collection.

A simple information and display web page is the easiest and best way to make information available to the masses these days. In a case like this it can be done for free or nearly free without any expertise needed. The historical value and significance would be preserved for any and all to see.

[wonkaticket]

Amazing items, if you decide to sell seek a top tier auction house such as REA or any of the other fine auction houses.

To auction off via our BST would be a mistake IMO. While our community is a fun place and there are plenty of wonderful and advanced collectors here too assume that Net54 is reaching even half of the collective collecting community is a bit naïve.

With an item as such as this I think you will find most auction houses will work with you so that %'s are none or very attractive.

Thanks for sharing and good luck which ever direction you decide to take.

Cheers,

John

[oldjudge]

Bob-All great points. The ideal outcome is that the historical society appreciates these items for what they are and prominently displays them. For me the second best solution is that they stay in your family. However, if you choose to sell them do not use the BST thread. That involves you guessing what they will sell for and my sense is that you will be way low. The auction process is the only way to let the market determine their value. If you are concerned that you may do worse than the numbers thrown out here in auction be assured that I will bid at least $5000. That being said, follow Bob's advice and go to the historical society first. Good luck!


Jay

[Kudbegud]

ChiefBenderForever:
Thanks for the suggestion. I will be contacting them for sure. As well as the Historical Society, Hall of Fame and others. I'm going to be busy for a while...not a bad thing.

19cbb:
I just might, thanks.

Jay Wolt:
I don't really have family that might appreciate them. It's just time to do something with them or they could end up the way I wouldn't like, as if I would know.

Old Hoss:
I will be contacting them, if only to donate high quality photos and any research data I have. Who would be around to enforce any restriction I may put on them? I can only hope they stay together as a set.

bbcard1:
I was never after the money. I could always use some more, but I'm OK with out it. I'd rather they are enjoyed by the many instead of the few. So this will play a large part in my decision. Enlargements, that's a good idea I will relay when I contact the museums. I'm posting in Photobucket, anybody can look. That's about all the web building savvy I can muster. Unless your volunteering?

spec
I wrote them down on my list. Its very intriguing to think that a research paper could evolve. Neat! May I reference your name as referring me?

M's_Fan:
Ah, taxes rear their ugly head. I hadn't really considered any thing more than a charitable donation deduction. But I haven't been able to take advantage of itemizing the past couple of years. So, I may not get that but it's not a factor in my decision.

[slidekellyslide]

I'd rather see them go to your local museum than the Hall of Fame where I think they'd truly be buried in the basement. I do think you should contact SABR though and see if there is someone who can take up enough interest to dig into who this team was and write an article.

[Kudbegud]

Golf History:
The home town Historical Society was my first choice because of the local tie-in. No better place for history preservation and an interest base than the home town, right? But all the possibilities revealed here makes me wonder if that is really the best route. More and greater appreciation might be had elsewhere. I will have a lot of phoning to do.
I have the medium resolution photos posted on Photobucket. I could do a Blogger page. Do you think that would be sufficient? I may get a new battery and fire up my prosumer camera for some consistent high rez pix....or get them done for the highest quality I can get.

wonkaticket:
I'm really looking at the auction route. But first are the non profit public outlets.

oldjudge:
You got it. I'm taking it all in and letting my gears grind it all very fine.

[Kudbegud]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'd rather see them go to your local museum than the Hall of Fame where I think they'd truly be buried in the basement. I do think you should contact SABR though and see if there is someone who can take up enough interest to dig into who this team was and write an article.

The Historical Society will be first, then SABR and maybe the home town paper next. Their responses will guide my next steps.
I am in debt to the forum for their freely given advice. Thank you all.

[Kudbegud]

All the backs of the cards have been posted on the Photobucket page.
http://s1236.photobucket.com/albums/...eball%20Cards/

[barrysloate]

Kudbegud- I think you've received more advice than you expected, and probably have too many options to digest. Why don't you take some time and come up with the one that suits you best. I think there is no shame in auctioning them off and putting some money in your pocket. But you have several other choices too. As you can see from the board reaction they are special and they are valuable, so you are sitting in the catbird seat. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[whitehse]

I am glad you made it over here with your CDV's. I knew you would get much more knowledge on this board than on the CU boards. These guys are the experts and if I ever had something in my hand like this that I had no clear ideas on I certainly would go to Net54 for the knowledge and professionalism.

On a side note I live in Illinois and have been to the the area that these cards came from. While it was mentioned previously I want to restate that I just feel that donating these to a museum in the area they originated from might not be the best of ideas. I see these items as being pushed aside and their importance not being appreciated as much as our hobby would. I love the SABR idea as well as offering them to the Hall of Fame but in the end it is your decision and whatever you decide I can assure you everyone will understand.

My one closing thought is that, again as mentioned before, you have had allot of input by some hobby heavyweights. I have seen snippets of these collectors collections when they post items on this and other boards. I can tell you that selling to these collectors would be like selling to the Hall of Fame!! You can be assured that they will be well cared for and very much appreciated, much more than a local museum would appreciate them in my opinion.

Good luck in your journey and I look forward to seeing how this all ends!! This board has a long history of helping people who have incredible items that were handed down to them understand their importance and helped to provide direction on next steps to take. DO a search on these boards for "skydash" (I believe thats the name) That was one of the coolest threads I have seen on these boards.

once again, good luck to you.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Old Hoss

These are really incredible photographs! If you decide to donate them, the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum would be a great spot for them.

The Hall of Fame would take great care of them and make the photographs available to all visitors who ask to see them. The Hall would store the works in a secure storage facility and use archival materials. And many passionate researchers and fans of 19th century baseball come through the Hall of Fame every year. Your photographs would be sure to catch many eyes there.

I had thought the HOF only displays a small % of what is owned based on reports from board members who have seen the archives and basement. If he wants them to be enjoyed by the masses, I'm not sure the BBHOF is the way to go.

[Jewish-collector]

Bring them with you to show all of us at the Net54 dinner at the National this summer in Chicago. You'll also get additional opinions when collectors see them in person.