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  #1  
Old 11-28-2019, 10:13 AM
piecesofthegame piecesofthegame is online now
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Default Newly Discovered Old Judge Player

After over 15 years of being on this wonderful forum, this is the first time I am starting a thread. I felt I would need something pretty special to share if I would do so. So here’s the story.

I bought a card from a guy on eBay, managed to make personal contact with him to see if he had anything else I might be interested in, and he sent me a scan of a couple random items from a tobacco card lot he had acquired in Chicago. He’s a stamp collector, not a sports guy. You will see the scan he sent at the end of the thread. Two of the three items were common items of no interest to me. The third was an Old Judge player I had never heard of...Roscoe Coughlin, Chicago Maroons. So I got out the Old Judge book to look him up...and found him NOWHERE. Then I knew this was special. I asked him what he wanted for it and he said he had to do some research, well unfortunately for him, that meant taking it to a dealer. In the meantime I attempted to get in touch with Jay Miller but apparently my message did not get through. I begged him NOT to sell before allowing me the chance to beat his best offer but he was in too much of a rush to sell, and probably cost himself a lot of money (I think he sold it for $4K plus a stamp collection which appealed to him as a stamp collector).

Jay and I have discussed the card since then and he encouraged me to post this along with the image and he will weigh in on it as well. It’s really painful to discuss as this one got away from me but I guess the only joy I will get is introducing a new Old Judge player to the collecting world! My one remaining question would be this...
When was the last discovery of a new OJ player, not a new pose, but a new player? Another question might be...
Does anyone know when the last surviving player from the OJ set died?

This player, Roscoe Coughlin, had a rather short and uneventful career but lived an interesting life according to Wikipedia, living until 1951 and serving in the Spanish American war in the late 1800s.

I think this is a real unique discovery, the kind that I may never find again but wanted to share with you folks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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File Type: jpg ojc.jpg (69.2 KB, 711 views)

Last edited by piecesofthegame; 11-28-2019 at 10:30 AM. Reason: resized pic a bit..
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2019, 10:37 AM
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Best first post ever? Certainly has to be on the list!

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  #3  
Old 11-28-2019, 10:48 AM
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Looks like he had a long minor league career. Only played in 8 games for the Chicago Maroons.https://www.statscrew.com/minorbaseb...ats/p-a79cc49d
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Last edited by insidethewrapper; 11-28-2019 at 10:50 AM.
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  #4  
Old 11-28-2019, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piecesofthegame View Post
After over 15 years of being on this wonderful forum, this is the first time I am starting a thread. I felt I would need something pretty special to share if I would do so. So hereís the story.

I bought a card from a guy on eBay, managed to make personal contact with him to see if he had anything else I might be interested in, and he sent me a scan of a couple random items from a tobacco card lot he had acquired in Chicago. Heís a stamp collector, not a sports guy. You will see the scan he sent at the end of the thread. Two of the three items were common items of no interest to me. The third was an Old Judge player I had never heard of...Roscoe Coughlin, Chicago Maroons. So I got out the Old Judge book to look him up...and found him NOWHERE. Then I knew this was special. I asked him what he wanted for it and he said he had to do some research, well unfortunately for him, that meant taking it to a dealer. In the meantime I attempted to get in touch with Jay Miller but apparently my message did not get through. I begged him NOT to sell before allowing me the chance to beat his best offer but he was in too much of a rush to sell, and probably cost himself a lot of money (I think he sold it for $4K plus a stamp collection which appealed to him as a stamp collector).

Jay and I have discussed the card since then and he encouraged me to post this along with the image and he will weigh in on it as well. Itís really painful to discuss as this one got away from me but I guess the only joy I will get is introducing a new Old Judge player to the collecting world! My one remaining question would be this...
When was the last discovery of a new OJ player, not a new pose, but a new player? Another question might be...
Does anyone know when the last surviving player from the OJ set died?

This player, Roscoe Coughlin, had a rather short and uneventful career but lived an interesting life according to Wikipedia, living until 1951 and serving in the Spanish American war in the late 1800s.

I think this is a real unique discovery, the kind that I may never find again but wanted to share with you folks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Great find and great first thread post. We've all had the one (ro two) that got away. Also, nice timing of the thread on Thanksgiving. Anyone reading (or writing ) this has a lot to be thankful for.
As to your questions I will differ to the OJ experts.

.
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2019, 12:06 PM
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This was an exciting find, at least to the small community of Old Judge collectors. In the Old Judge book we published a list of hypothetical Old Judge cards. These were players who should have had a card issued, but for whom no card had yet been found. Tug Wilson was on the list and after the book was published I identified some cards of Wilson which had been misidentified as Joe Miller by Goodwin. Joe Gonsowski and I did an article about this in Old Cardboard. Coughlin was also on this hypothetical list. So, it is no surprise that it was found. I guess the Wilson was the last new player found, although the cards were known; the player was not. Prior to this, an O'Day was found as part of a large group auctioned off by Christie's about 15-20 years ago. I remember sitting next to Barry Sloate in this live auction and bidding against Don Steinbach, rest his soul. Since the mid-1980s there have been several dozen new players discovered. Hopefully, this puts some perspective on the find.
As to the last surviving player, off the top of my head, I believe Dummy Hoy passed away in 1959.
I was never privy to the negotiations for this card or the timeline of the events till after the fact when Javan emailed me. I appreciate him sharing this information. It is always good to know the history of a card.

Last edited by oldjudge; 11-28-2019 at 12:14 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2019, 12:15 PM
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I don't collect OJs but this is awesome. A new card discovered all these years later. That's great. I'm excited for those of you who are into OJs for sure.
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2019, 12:17 PM
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Jay, do you think the $4k+ price is high or low? As a non-N172 collector, to me the price seems high even for a new discovery given the condition. Are you aware of any recent sales that would be somewhat a comparison (basically, pop 1, similar condition)?
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2019, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x2drich2000 View Post
Jay, do you think the $4k+ price is high or low? As a non-N172 collector, to me the price seems high even for a new discovery given the condition. Are you aware of any recent sales that would be somewhat a comparison (basically, pop 1, similar condition)?
Awesome find. Love to read about stuff like this.

I actually find a $4K price low. I think that it would go for more than that if it were offered in an auction.

Last edited by robertsmithnocure; 11-28-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2019, 12:29 PM
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Itís really a shame it got away from you.

I always enjoy stories of new cards discovered for the known checklist.
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2019, 12:35 PM
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Assuming what Javan says about the structure of the sale is accurate (I have no way of knowing if it is), without knowing what was in the stamp collection it is impossible to say if the purchase price was high or low.

Last edited by oldjudge; 11-28-2019 at 12:37 PM.
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  #11  
Old 11-28-2019, 12:43 PM
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Great stuff!
Thanks for the share.
Happy Thanksgiving.
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2019, 01:35 PM
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He may have asked to research anyway, but if you had hit him with a number instead of asking him for one, it might not have gotten away. Just one of the tricks of the trade. Great that you shared the story, thanks!
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 11-28-2019 at 01:36 PM.
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  #13  
Old 11-28-2019, 01:38 PM
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Sweet discovery!, love seeing a new subject brought to light. I thought the next new player would be California League subject but not surprising to see it be an 1888 Western Association player either (some of those Fb cards are impossible). Thanks for posting Javan, hope the Coughlin found or finds a good home. Perhaps we will see it in an upcoming auction.
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Last edited by Joe_G.; 11-28-2019 at 01:40 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2019, 01:47 PM
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Javan, thanks for posting. It's a pretty cool post.

Are you back in the OJ hunt? I hope all has been well.
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  #15  
Old 11-28-2019, 07:33 PM
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Circling back to some of the earlier posts . . .

Dummy Hoy was the last surviving player from the OJ set, passing Dec. 15th 1961, at age 99.

This moves the number of subjects in the OJ set to 523, two more than suggested by the OJ book. As Jay mentioned, there was the Tug Wilson discovery (proper identification of three Joseph Miller poses) and now Roscoe Coughlin.

The Maroons were hoarding pitchers. Roscoe makes six Maroon pitchers introduced to the OJ set in 1888 as follows:

95.5 Roscoe Coughlin
139 J. E. Dunn
141 Frank Dwyer
161 Fischer
344 J. W. Nicholson
433 Charlie Sprague

Glad my collecting focus isn't Chicago Maroons.
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  #16  
Old 11-28-2019, 08:47 PM
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Jay

Just wondering I know in this set the West coast cards are worth large fortunes and in 12 years have only seen one come up for auction. So just based on rarity alone why would this card not be in the same area of value?
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Last edited by BobbyVCP; 11-28-2019 at 08:47 PM.
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2019, 09:40 PM
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Bobby-The card is worth what someone is willing to pay. California League Old Judges are all extremely rare cards and thus collectors pay up to get a single representative copy. New, non-California League cards may not carry the same desirability. We'll all find out together when it sells, if it does.
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  #18  
Old 11-28-2019, 09:58 PM
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Default Price guide?

Not being an Old Judge collector...is there an online price guide somewhere?
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  #19  
Old 11-29-2019, 12:50 AM
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Jay, can you share how you guys were able to create a list of hypothetical cards?


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
This was an exciting find, at least to the small community of Old Judge collectors. In the Old Judge book we published a list of hypothetical Old Judge cards. These were players who should have had a card issued, but for whom no card had yet been found. Tug Wilson was on the list and after the book was published I identified some cards of Wilson which had been misidentified as Joe Miller by Goodwin. Joe Gonsowski and I did an article about this in Old Cardboard. Coughlin was also on this hypothetical list. So, it is no surprise that it was found. I guess the Wilson was the last new player found, although the cards were known; the player was not. Prior to this, an O'Day was found as part of a large group auctioned off by Christie's about 15-20 years ago. I remember sitting next to Barry Sloate in this live auction and bidding against Don Steinbach, rest his soul. Since the mid-1980s there have been several dozen new players discovered. Hopefully, this puts some perspective on the find.
As to the last surviving player, off the top of my head, I believe Dummy Hoy passed away in 1959.
I was never privy to the negotiations for this card or the timeline of the events till after the fact when Javan emailed me. I appreciate him sharing this information. It is always good to know the history of a card.
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  #20  
Old 11-29-2019, 02:02 AM
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Hi Bryan! Basically what we did was to look at the team rosters of teams that were represented in the set and see what players with decent playing time were not yet known. Some teams only appear as team changes, such as Worcester, so we did not look at them, only those teams from the National League, American Association, and Western Association. We didnít add California League players to the list as there were too many to make it useful. In fact, the whole Stockton team is missing.
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  #21  
Old 11-29-2019, 07:02 AM
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Default Javan,

Quote:
Originally Posted by piecesofthegame View Post
After over 15 years of being on this wonderful forum, this is the first time I am starting a thread. I felt I would need something pretty special to share if I would do so. So hereís the story.

I bought a card from a guy on eBay, managed to make personal contact with him to see if he had anything else I might be interested in, and he sent me a scan of a couple random items from a tobacco card lot he had acquired in Chicago. Heís a stamp collector, not a sports guy. You will see the scan he sent at the end of the thread. Two of the three items were common items of no interest to me. The third was an Old Judge player I had never heard of...Roscoe Coughlin, Chicago Maroons. So I got out the Old Judge book to look him up...and found him NOWHERE. Then I knew this was special. I asked him what he wanted for it and he said he had to do some research, well unfortunately for him, that meant taking it to a dealer. In the meantime I attempted to get in touch with Jay Miller but apparently my message did not get through. I begged him NOT to sell before allowing me the chance to beat his best offer but he was in too much of a rush to sell, and probably cost himself a lot of money (I think he sold it for $4K plus a stamp collection which appealed to him as a stamp collector).

Jay and I have discussed the card since then and he encouraged me to post this along with the image and he will weigh in on it as well. Itís really painful to discuss as this one got away from me but I guess the only joy I will get is introducing a new Old Judge player to the collecting world! My one remaining question would be this...
When was the last discovery of a new OJ player, not a new pose, but a new player? Another question might be...
Does anyone know when the last surviving player from the OJ set died?

This player, Roscoe Coughlin, had a rather short and uneventful career but lived an interesting life according to Wikipedia, living until 1951 and serving in the Spanish American war in the late 1800s.

I think this is a real unique discovery, the kind that I may never find again but wanted to share with you folks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks for sharing this new find
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  #22  
Old 11-29-2019, 09:31 AM
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Very exciting!

Thanks for sharing.

Last edited by kkkkandp; 11-29-2019 at 09:32 AM.
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  #23  
Old 11-29-2019, 10:09 AM
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To expand a bit on Jay's response, the hypothetical cards largely came from the N173 redemption offer checklists. Here is a look at the 1888 7 panel checklist.

Maybe Dugrahm and Hover will be the next discoveries. Some of these Maroons have proven to be far more difficult than others.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1888 Checklist - 7 panel - 60 dpi.jpg (65.6 KB, 401 views)
File Type: jpg 1888 Checklist - Maroons - 300 dpi.jpg (27.1 KB, 396 views)
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- N333 SF Hess Newsboys League cards (all teams)
- Pre ATC Merger (1890 and prior) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers

Last edited by Joe_G.; 11-29-2019 at 10:12 AM.
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  #24  
Old 11-29-2019, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_G. View Post
To expand a bit on Jay's response, the hypothetical cards largely came from the N173 redemption offer checklists. Here is a look at the 1888 7 panel checklist.

Maybe Dugrahm and Hover will be the next discoveries. Some of these Maroons have proven to be far more difficult than others.
Nice discovery and great info, y'all. It certainly makes sense that all would be possible with multiple poses from the original checklist.

I think it's interesting that a card shop or card show dealer gave him 4K and some stamps. If I walked into a show with this Crogan, I would expect them to offer me $75. A decent place to view an OJ price guide is Bob Lemke's 2006 SCD guide. It will give you a place to start. Rob
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File Type: jpg n172crogan174.jpg (55.2 KB, 354 views)
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  #25  
Old 11-29-2019, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyVCP View Post
Jay

Just wondering I know in this set the West coast cards are worth large fortunes and in 12 years have only seen one come up for auction. So just based on rarity alone why would this card not be in the same area of value?
I was wondering the same thing. One consideration is that even though itís 1/1, itís probably more likely to see another one of these than a second California League.
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  #26  
Old 11-29-2019, 03:09 PM
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Jay & Joe -- thanks for the info on how you can up with the possible cards!
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  #27  
Old 11-29-2019, 07:36 PM
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I'll follow RC's lead and post a teammate of Coughlin. Here is the 1888 and 1889 re-issue card for George Ruckser (played under the name Rooks).



In honor of Coughlin discovery, post a Maroon teammate if you have one.
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  #28  
Old 11-29-2019, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
A decent place to view an OJ price guide is Bob Lemke's 2006 SCD guide. It will give you a place to start. Rob

Really you use a guide that is 13 years old now?
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  #29  
Old 11-29-2019, 08:35 PM
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Really you use a guide that is 13 years old now?
I am unaware of any guide that is worth a poop
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  #30  
Old 11-29-2019, 08:46 PM
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Excellent post and discovery! Exciting to see something so old, can still be new. Happy for the OJ collectors out there. Cheers!
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  #31  
Old 11-29-2019, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
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I am unaware of any guide that is worth a poop
Appreciate the slap in the face...
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  #32  
Old 11-29-2019, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
I am unaware of any guide that is worth a poop

Hey...I paid three poops and a tinkle for mine.


My apologies for not having enough Old Judge knowledge to legitimately contribute to this great thread.

But, thanks Jay for providing a set-up for my attempt at humor.



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Last edited by clydepepper; 11-29-2019 at 09:05 PM.
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  #33  
Old 11-29-2019, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
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Really you use a guide that is 13 years old now?

Yes. No wonder I haven't won many recently.

Seriously though, I was not commenting on your site and am not familiar with it. I was responding to the member's question in post #18.

Lemke had commons listed as 600 275 150, which is about what I would pay today. You can throw out the price guides on uncommon OJ's. You just have to bid until the other guy stops.
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  #34  
Old 11-29-2019, 11:28 PM
tmw2ward tmw2ward is offline
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Thanks for the feedback. Is there a way to search the VCP as price guide for the set, as opposed to searching each player individually? Thanks.
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  #35  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:08 PM
chlankf chlankf is offline
Craig L.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmw2ward View Post
Thanks for the feedback. Is there a way to search the VCP as price guide for the set, as opposed to searching each player individually? Thanks.
Price guides for OJs will never give a true valuation. There are so many collectors paying crazy amounts for these little beauties. I myself work on the Iowa players, Des Moines, Sioux City and fingers crossed the Burlington Nyce. Take Des Moines, there are 23 players with 82 poses. If I have three of the four Cody poses and the fourth comes up for sale, I have to really pony up if I want to own it. I know of at least two other collectors looking for the same thing as myself and if I'm missing it, bets are their missing it as well.

Just my two cents but prices are all over on OJs.
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