lawsuit against psa for 10.5 million awarded to........

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Posted By: warshawlaw

If they didn't accept SNL's $3000 offer to reunite, you know the Beatles never would do it

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes, but that's because Lorne Michaels told them to give less to Ringo.

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Posted By: Steve

I should probably not do this but I also agree with the old-timers. The grading services have changed the business and is not all negative. Of course people overgraded cards (and continue) to as grading is inherently subjective and an art and not a science. My request is simply for consistency, which is of course a regular board topic about the different grading companies. I think the grading companies have encouraged the collecting of some unusual issues, especially by ebay buyers, as people would be afraid to buy more obscure and advaned issues on their own.

On the other hand..

In the past, almost no one cared about writing, especially minor writing, on a blank back card. Apparently now this makes the card Poor or Fair. A tiny scrape on the back of a card makes it Good or Fair or VG when in the past it may have been Ex or even higher. Good or bad, cannot make that judgment...

I should also acknowledge some level of hypocrisy as I (like everyone else) do submit cards for grading. I do not alter my cards and nothing I submit has been doctored. My big problem is when I see graded card dealers buy Ex 5 1933 Goudey Ruths for $10,000 or centered 7s for 1 1/2 to 3x SMR. It seems like the pre-war cards literally become sharper every six months. I would like the fellow old timers to comment on whether they think a large number of doctored vintage cards are being graded on a fairly regular basis by all of the major companies. I am not trying to stir up any trouble here just stimulated by this very lively thread - Steve

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Posted By: Rick

I wish I could have met Burdick and Nagy ...I really do.

But the fact that i didnt does not make me a less passionate collector.

Just because i like grading companies does not make me an investor.

The hobby has evolved, information that was once held in the brains of a few are now everywhere, grading stantdars are universal because of grading companies.

these are good things.

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Posted By: Larry

I have been pretty active as collector & dealer since early 1970's, I grew up with Rob Lifson, Don Lepore, Bill Mastro, Don Steinbach, Paul Gallagher, George Lyons, Barry Halper, TTS, SCD, Frank Nagy,Elliot Dock, Rob Bruce, Bill Heitman,Pat Quinn etc..all names from the past and some still around..

It was a great era, we all made money, we all had fun and we all loved cards.


The above threads touch many avenues that have evolved since the "early days" and the hobby was always filled with great moments and rude awakenings, as is still the case.

Even with the hypocrisy, it still is a great hobby and a good source of income for some, a good investment for others, and just plain fun for many. I myself have become a hybrid product of the old school and found the new school of grading important...we need them for all the good and bad... but as Bill Heitman stated, they make mistakes and it is subjective. As another poster stated, there was a time when some dealers felt a mint card was a card that was minted once but could be off center, have a small pen mark etc., that was a problem. Even in coins, I would buy a MS65 coin(they called it Gem BU) and would sell it back to same dealer and they would say it was AU(MS 55) coin so it became imperative to have some boundaries inn coins and cards so that collectors and dealers had reasonably common ground, all 3 major services do provide that service to some extent. I especially feel that slabbing is much better than Den Collectors Den sheets or screw downs, they protect the card longterm, add some preservation and keep card airtight for the most part.

The most important thing is that "old and new timers" should recognize that cards are a represenation of history that we all hopefully respect and admire, it should be noted that collectors and dealers like Bill Heitman, John Rumierz, Jay Barry, Fritsch, Lipset, Lifson, Mastro, etc., even a smaller extent myself, have YEARS behind us, experience teaches us and that does mean something...yet we are never too smart to learn more, I realized this last few years how much I did not know and hopefully became better for it..

The actual baseball cards do represent a great piece of historical significance, so does The Baseball Card Collecting and Dealing, for all its good, bad and the ugly.

The T206 Wagner mystery still does not rank with the JFK assasination but it still has the same intrigue....but the actual importance is that we are a stronger hobby if we respect the past and present and look hopefully toward the future.

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Posted By: William Heitman

I don't want anyone to think that I believe Old Timers are the only collectors who are passionate about collecting. Heck, I've known some really Old Timers who were anything but passionate about collecting. And it is clear to me that there are many who are not Old Timers who are very passionate about collecting and very knowledgeable as well. Time produces experience and knowledge. In the age we live in, it would seem a lot easier to gather information which can provide valuable knowledge to everyone. I've known plenty of Old Timers who were just terrible at grading cards; but, that didn't matter too much because if they sold a card, or traded it, it was always on approval if through the mail or it occurred in person. When I was auctioning a lot, I never hesititated to refund someone their money if, after they actually received the card, they disagreed with my grading or even if they just decided they didn't like the card.

Taking part in these discussions has lead me to go try and find a whole lot of material that I've put away. Last night I found one binder with about 10 years worth of the Monthly Card Collector's Bulletins, first published by Burdick and later by Bray. That binder covered the time period when Burdick was getting out of it and Bray was taking over. That was fun to look at.

While I will not assume that someone who is not an Old Timer can't possibly know what they're talking about, please don't assume that every Old Timer is just some old guy with an axe to grind.

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Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)

....a given card grade 8 is $1000....grade 9 = $10,000....grade 10 = $100,000. I would never be crazy enough to pay these prices for what is so incrementally insignificant a difference

Our hobby has been taken over by the old Coin Grading "artists"; and, we all know what they did to that hobby. But, mind you it did not occur overnite.

Nice summary Ted!

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Posted By: DJ

Ted hit it on the head!

That's all I will say.

DJ

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

I never used the term "old timer". I don't know if I'm an "old timer" or not - I've been collecting since 1976, but took a few years off after being turned off by shiny stuff.

There absolutely is a tangible difference between an 8 and a 9. I'm not sure I can always say the same about the difference between a 9 and a 10, but that's just me. However, for most issues, my personal preference is to keep my collections at the 7 level and below, because PERSONALLY, I don't have the stomach to pony up the kind of incremental cash that Ted refers to in his post.

However, I also recognize that there are others who want what they perceive to be the best cards available, and I'm not about to begrudge them the right to collect any way they choose. I'm certainly not about to indict the grading industry because of it.

The grading industry thrives because there is a need for it. Period. Some may choose not to embrace it - a big percentage of my collection remains raw as well - but it isn't going anywhere, and it has far-reaching benefits for the hobby. Those benefits are recognized by people all over this board who choose to keep their collections raw, but ship everything else off to an evil grading company prior to selling.

Indeed I have also had cards returned as trimmed, only to have them grade later. One of the inconsistencies of having human beings interpret what they see, I suppose. Still, this is the exception and not the rule, and I refuse to indict an industry based on exceptions.

Sorry if I'm against the grain on this one,

-Al

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Posted By: Rick

I have a great deal of respect for those before who did great research and had an incredible passion for cards when they were not worth the price of a car.

Without the cataloging of the cards, the constant search for hard to find issues etc...the information we have today might not exist.

However...I do not like how some old timers belittle some newer collectors simply because they were not there when it started, when it was "pure"

Its always the same thing...they dont like PSA, SGC..but ask them why...its because they cant grade a card they way they please anymore.. they can buy and sell cards using their "when you sell its gold when you buy its crap" line that created the demand for universal grading.

I enjoy the hobby very much ...The one now with graded cards, the crappy shiny stuff ebay the whole thing.

I love reading this board and the PSA boards...thats fun to me. This is how i learn, not quite as sending letters to Burdick ...but pretty good in its own way.

It seems to me that the old timers choose what to remember from the past at times...there was a reason why grading companies were created...there was a demand from collectors.

Some old timers have become gators..some will die as hobby dinosours.

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Posted By: barrysloate

We are going through a generational change in our hobby specifically and in America at large. The baby boomers, one of the most culturally influential groups in American history, really got this whole hobby cooking in the 1980's. We are getting older now and next year the first official group of boomers turns sixty. As a result, many of us are getting out of the hobby and passing the torch to the next generation. There is nothing wrong with this and it is the natural order of things. I think today's generation collects a little differently than we did, and they are faced with the unfortunate reality that everything is so darn expensive, but that's just the way it is. One day years down the road all the boomers will be long gone but the cards we collected will still be here. It's important to recognize that change is inevitable.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Don't pass us the stupid torch...

pass us all of your freakin' CARDS!!!!!!!!!




PS - No way the Beatles ever reunite without the permission of Clarence, the 5th Beatle.

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Posted By: Michael Campbell

Yes, Mr. Heitman, I do know absolutely everything you mentioned. And all names mentioned. One can have such knowledge and still not be an old timer. There are many people in this hobby that fly under the radar. I know an individual in California who has millions of dollars worth of grade 8's and 9's, pre war, that no one on the forum would know. But for the record, I am not an old timer. I have been collecting cards since I was 5, and starting buying pre war in 1991. I guess I am borderline.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And you thought I didn't know that Clarence was Eddie Murphy?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Rick

Your....."Some old timers have become gators..some will die as hobby
dinsours"
That's real "cool" talk....can you name these gators and dinosaurs in
this hobby ? Come on now, you made this statement....NAME THEM ?

And, you are wrong....collectors did not "demand" any Grading Service.
It started in early '90s, as people who screwed-up the Coin Hobby infil-
trated this hobby. At first, Grading of BB cards was reluctantly received
by many, young and old. The turning point for Grading BB cards was the
advent of Ebay; and, for obvious reasons it became much more widely
accepted.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The rose-colored glasses slip on every now and then around here and we all look back to the days of cheap cards and cameraderie...and it is selective memory at its best. The card "market" has always been driven by the same elements; they just used to be smaller money elements. I've been seriously into cards for 28 years (I consider running dealer tables regularly at shows in 1978 to qualify me as an "Old Timer" even if I was only 12-13 at the time) and the rivalry and competition for good cards has never been absent. The borderline personalities have always been there too. We just have a more sophisticated marketplace with lots more information and opportunities for communications today. The supply-demand-desire-behavior issues are the same as they ever were.

We've hashed and re-hashed the slabbing issue around here. Some people are never going to accept a third party opinion system, no matter what its merits. Some "old timers" have their own ideas about grading that don't comport with the slabbers' ideas and feel that their inventory and/or collections have been devalued as a result. Some people have been burned by that system and justifiably want no part of it. Some people have been helped by it and support it. Regardless of where you fall in the spectrum, the market for vintage cards is firmly in favor of the slabbing concept; the numbers prove it. All of the high-priced vintage cards that attract our attention of late (Baltimore Ruth, T210 Jackson, CJ Jackson, T206 Wagner, etc.) have been sold slabbed. That in and of itself speaks volumes. Those of you who can and would plunk down five or six figures for a card can answer this one (cause I sure ain't one of you ): would you do it if the card was not guaranteed to slab or already slabbed?

The truth, regardless of acceptance of it, is that anyone holding prewar cards purchased more than a few years ago has been helped immensely by the third party grading concept. The slabbers have driven a lot of the price growth we've seen. I don't think that's bad or good in and of itself. Both positions have merit. I LIKE having an endless auction on Ebay, big National shows, devoted publications, and not being made fun of by my peers for collecting cards, none of which would be where it is today without slabbing. I DISLIKE how much the cards I like cost, how many crooks and scamsters are drawn into the business and how much buying, selling and trading them is like handling a stock portfolio. Not much to be done about any of it, though. Technology marches on, the market has its own force, and not even the continuing saga of sleaze emanating from PSA will dampen things for long. The folks decrying the rot of the business from slabbing and big money are a bit too Luddite for me; the folks buying plastic and not cards too dumbed down for me. There is a compromise in the middle, which most people strike pretty well.

I guess what I am long-windedly trying say as an Old Timer and a current collector is that I share the pain of my fellow travelers from the good old days who miss the ability to collect it all if only it can be found and feel the frustrations of the forward-looking nouveau collectors when being chided with tales of the good old days. The old days of card collecting are gone and are not coming back unless there is another Great Depression (and none of us want that). Accept it and move on, fellow old farts. But you young whippersnappers, show some respect, you might learn something

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

"At first, Grading of BB cards was reluctantly received
by many, young and old."

Of COURSE it was. Suddenly, a lot of people's Near Mint cards were now EX cards. That made people's collections less valuable than they thought, and it made selling prices lower than dealers would have liked. It didn't take long, however, for many people to see the benefits that grading offered.

Virtually any new industry is reluctantly accepted. Grading, in my opinion, has brought people into the hobby. It has established standards for judging a card's condition. And in a lot of cases, it has helped inject a lot of cash into the hobby. And I agree - it made it a lot easier to buy cards on Ebay.

Before Ebay, it might take the average collector a lifetime to complete a 1933 Goudey set. Now, with enough cash, you could probably do it in a few weeks (except the Lajoie). The downside of this is that you're taking a risk that cards are not accurately described. By buying the cards in a slab, you minimize that risk.

I can understand a person choosing not to have graded cards in their collection - even buying slabbed cards for their personal collections and cracking them out. But I cannot understand, after the industry is firmly established and has been that way for five to ten years, rejecting the concept outright and implying that it's bad for the hobby. Sentiments like that fly in the face of everything we see, every single day, as people buy, sell, and build their collections.

-Al

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Posted By: Larry

The last posting above mine hit it on the nail....

There are many of us oldtimers that have come around to accept the concept of grading and it has added many collectors and collections to the hobby, it has legitimized the dealers that were overgraders and has also made some people wary.

This is not to say that grading is a cure all or does not have its errors and this does not change the fact that there are many of us that know how to grade and always did, I agree with an earlier poster that a near mint front with a blank back that has a small initial or pen mark on reverse should not be down graded to a 2, that is ridiculous and SGC is EXTREMELY conservative when it comes to miniscule problems yet centering they are more lenient with, PSA is totally inconsistant and GAI makes some errors but all three are necessary to the hobby to preserve the integrity of rare cards and create demand.

Bottom Line, those that do not accept grading are living in the past, even if tehy are partially correct about the ridiculous variances between grades and the fact that SMR is a joke... but I respect those "oldtimers" that have knowledge and integrity, they were and still are important to the hobby.

Mr. Sloate really nailed it, we are passing the torch(and someday the cards) to future generations and they will accept these "values" we put on cards only if there is a demand, if my daughter fails to learn who Joe DiMaggio or Mickey mantle was, then someday their cards graded or ungraded will have no value to all of us oldtimers and newtimers, collectors and dealers better fess up to the fact that we need to pass the torch to the current generations, even if it is for selfish reasons partly.

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Posted By: barrysloate

In the early years of grading I was one of those most vehemently against it; today I send everything out to be slabbed. If I didn't, I might as well close shop. You have to change with the times. Not always easy, as in some ways I'm still a hippie living in the 60's, but in business you can't be a dinosaur.

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Posted By: WP

There is one reason major reason for the success of grading companies. The consumer demanded it and the cards brought premiums over unslabbed cards. This began before the advent of ebay it started in 1994 and 1995 and was highlighted by the sale of the D. Hall collection. Whether or not pieces of the collection were altered and overgraded is a topic for another day.

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Posted By: William Heitman

I am very reluctantly weighing in on this thread once again. Rick's posting which refers to "old timers" as gators and/or dinosauers is just too insulting. It also demonstrates too much ignorance to ignore.

Grading services began to appear in this hobby without any demand from collectors. I am also a coin collector and watched that hobby become the province of people who knew nothing of coins but had money to throw around. Card grading services came from these very same people. It was a very small number of dealers(many of whom had close ties to coin grading companies) who brought it about. They thought that they could profit by slabbing cards in the same fashion as coins. How? It would bring the investors in. That, by the way, is why a card that everyone knew was trimmed actually got graded.

The eBaying of America has now seemed to legitimize the card grading services. WHOA!!!!! An M116 slabbed as a T206? This is hardly an argument in favor of just plain honesty in collecting. I believe that a third party grading service would be wonderful for this hobby if it really was a knowledgeable service. The grading services out there have proven themselves to be unreliable so far, and this was the very objection we dinosaurs had of them when they first popped up. The people who ran them, and participated with them, were not card collecting people--they were people who knew nothing about cards and card collecting, but they were people who saw a buck and went after it.

And just like the "dumbing of America", we've seen a dumbing of card collecting. I think population reports are wonderful, but why would you think that a population report of just the cards submitted for grading is adequate? In other words, is slabbing cards the only way to learn? Do you really want to rely on a bunch of people who don't know an M116 from a T206? Is that what collecting is to you? Have these people who were trying to sell you that crap actually succeeded?

I am very mindful that things have changed and probably changed forever. As electing George W. Bush proved, they haven't necessarily changed for the better. And it also doesn't mean that we can't change them for the better. The few grading services out there have proven to be great for investors and, so far, just awful for COLLECTORS. One small example--Jackson, New Orleans has been on the T210 checklist for at least 45 years--but the hobby only seems to have noticed it when one was submitted for grading. You guys are starting to believe what the grading services want you to believe. And that is that they are the sole source of knowledge and truth in this hobby and that it all began with them. We dinosaurs will attest that the grading services, as they are run today, were a product of profit motive and not card collecting. GOOD NIGHT . . . and . . . GOOD LUCK

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Posted By: William Heitman

Thanks, Ted. I don't know of one collector who stood up and shouted--GIVE ME A GRADING SERVICE!!!!

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Posted By: WP

This would be a good time for Davallilo to jump in.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Rick,
I guess I must be too much of a youngster but I am suprised anyone would find your analogy between the gator and dinosaur offensive.

I for one do not long for the old days with limited availability and grading all over the board.

Adam B

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Posted By: Rick

I apologize for the "Hobby dinosour" line.

It was stupid and after all we are here because we love cards... Again i am sorry ...and i wish i kept a couple of comments to myself.

Its a wonderful hobby ...even when its not perfect.

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Posted By: William Heitman

How available are $15,000 plus cards to you, Adam?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Nobody begged for a grading service; enterprising people saw an opportunity and took it. And it caught on. I don't think anyone entered this hobby hoping to buy graded cards. I know I didn't; in fact, I only bought my first graded card two years ago or so. After putting together a 1958 Topps set, card by card, ungraded, all in cards purchased on ebay advertised as Near Mint, I came to realize that 90% of the dealers, reputable ones included, lied about the grades of their cards. It was a joke. So, instead of continuing to throw out money, I started buying PSA, SGC and GAI graded cards. This reduced the possibility of getting robbed. And even if the stray trimmed card ends up in a slabbed holder with a grade on it, my investment is protected. End of story.

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Posted By: DJ

I have enjoyed the progression of this thread from PSA/DNA's lawsuit to the "Honus" accounts to labeling those who came before us "dinosaurs". Been collecting 25+ years, not offended.

I guess all of us "Old Timers" should be in a Baseball Card retirement home of some sorts eagerly awaiting "Matlock" and "Bingo Macaroni Afternoon" as the "Plastic Generation" enjoys their sufficoted cardboard.

I for one dislike the idea of grading but have embraced it to a certain degree. With so much criminal activity out there, it sure eases the mind of the new collectors. Sure the new collectors can't tell he difference between a 7,8 or 9 and sometimes purchase the holder and the registry report but to quote hockey goon Todd Bertuzzi: "It is what it is".

It's all about the "now". Time moves only forward and grading is here to stay. I must admit that I was late in life to embrace technology, especially computers as a manila folder did just as adequate of a job all these years.

It's not only Grading card companies but the whole current time that has changed. Computers. Ebay. Trusted auction houses. More millionaires than ever. A way to diversify in a time of Economic paranoia (cough- Enron...Tyco). So if you want to pay 9000% more because it's the only 9 the grading card has ever seen, more power to ya!

My two cents...

DJ

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Posted By: jay behrens

Rick, it's true that anyone can ganer a wealth of card knowledge in a short period of time in this day and age, but there is nothing can replace the handling of 10s of thousands, if not 100s of thousands of cards. All the book knowledge in the world about cards isn't going to help you when you finally get your hands on a G&B, Yum Yum or some other rare issue. Being able to handle and see the cards from a source you know to be legit is the only way to really become knowledgable about the cards you collect.

Jay

If you can sue a band for making you want to commit suicide, can I sue Barry Manilow for turning me into a wuss in the 70s?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

WP-"It would be a good time for Davalillo to jump in."

Okay--still thawing out after enduring a 5-inch snowstorm in Des Moines.

There is an enormous amount to learn from "old-timers" and my knowledge of vintage cards is but a small fraction of many people on this board.I especially enjoy the comments of Mr. Heitman but I know for a fact that he and Jeff Lichtman are wrong when they say "I don't know of one collector who stood up and shouted 'give me a grading service' nor "grading services began to appear in this hobby without any demand from collectors" or "nobody begged for a grading service"

Meet that guy. I demanded it and I'm not the only one. Jeff-- I couldn't agree more when you say "90% of the dealers lied about the condition of their cards". You never knew what you were buying if you bought by mail. In addition, there was this burgeoning problem of card alteration. Back in late 1980s-early 1990s, I bought a fair amount of expensive ungraded cards. After buying them, I measured them and found several measured short. I showed these cards to various "experts" and for almost all the cards I had suspicions on the opinions were very divided. Card alteration got to be so bad that I made up my mind I would not buy any cards unless they were graded. I know of several substantial graded card collectors who felt similarly. Collectors completely lost confidence in the ungraded vintage card market. I can remember Superior Sportscards last ungraded sportscard aucttion. A significant number of cards did not receive bids--those that did were in many cases low. Greg called me the next morning and offered me several cards incl a Diamond Star #108 in nrmt-mt at min. bid. What caused me to demand card grading to paraphrase Mr. Heitman's words was that when I ultimately sent in these cards to PSA for grading many came back trimmed or altered in some way.

Now I know that card grading cos are not perfect and that many altered cards have slipped into graded card company holders but grading has attracted an enormous number of new players into the hobby--many of whom have thrown millions into the hobby. Grading is the here and now and the future of the hobby.

Jim

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Attaboy, Jim.

-Al

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Posted By: Chris

I agree with Jim. I would get so frustrated with cards being misrepresented when I would buy them. Dealers would buy VG cards and sell them as VG-EX or EX. You may be taking a chance on a graded card not being what it is "advertised" to be but IMO you are taking a bigger chance with ungraded. The % of altered cards in slabs is much less than the % of over graded or altered raw cards.

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Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)

Jim,

Yes, it appears that grading is here to stay. Yes, we've all found out that the grading services (including the most trusted) are not infallible. Yes, grading services do, for the most part, a good job.

I don't mind grading services but like a lot of people have mentioned, "a person should buy the card - not the holder"

A good point that has been brought up is that incremental steps in grading can cause people to "buy the holder". I've seen (I'm pretty sure we've all seen) that there are 6's better than 7' and 7's better than 8's, etc. The price of lower grade material goes up with the price of the higher grade material (not nearly as much, but it does increase). All this because people get so caught up in the grades and will pay what ever price if the holder indicates a particular grade being amassed by a collector. For a collector of limited means that can be frustrating. I'm happy collecting lower grade, mid-grade and high grade material. It all boils down to the price being right and reasonable.

I wouldn't judge anyone by what they collect (high grade material based on the holder's label) but I certainly believe that blindly giving into a label indication is an odd way to base a purchase and collect cards. I can already see the responses coming - yup, there are those that can collect this way because they have great resources and the impact of a higher price isn't a consideration to them as much as it is to others.

Like I've said in the past, I'll be one of the happiest collectos out there if the escalating price increases come to a grinding halt and prices drop immensely due to any reason (sadly bad economic conditions are included).

What exactly is my point? blah, blah, blah.... I had a few minutes to kill before a conference call... I'll re-read it later and then edit (delete)... blah, blah. blah... we've all heard it before and I get the feeling we'll all hear it again...

Pont - Grading services here to stay - Grading services basically good - Collectors should buy card, not holder (label)...

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

No doubt. Buy the card, not the holder.

The MAIN issue that people tend to have with grading services is the fact that there is a list of guidelines that cause a card to drop down a grade. Glue on the back of a card. A tiny bit of writing. A virtually invisible surface wrinkle.

If you're buying the card and not the holder, perhaps this doesn't bother you as much.

Example: Three cards I'm very happy with, all with a wide disparity in grade.

A very nice 8, with a little bit of toning.



One of the sharpest 5s I've ever seen, with miniscule surface wrinkle that is visible only in certain light.



THE sharpest 3 I've ever seen, with a roller line across it that dropped the grade.



Three beautiful cards, three different grades. I don't necessarily agree that the York is a 3 or the Owen is a 5, but that's what the grades are, using their technical definitions. I bought the cards, and they're all beautiful.

-Al

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Posted By: Anonymous

William,
I guess $15,000 cards are not available to me at all as they are multiple orders of magnitude past my top spending range. I remember buying raw cards on the Prodigy message boards (before grading took off) and although I had some good experiences I also had some ones that soured me a bit. The selection at local shops is typically limited and making the jump from modern to vintage through shops or shows can be intimidating for someone who is just starting out (not to mention those expensive mistakes that I would imagine most folks make along the way).

I've been in and out of the hobby several times and one of the things that got me into vintage was the sheer variety of items made available on the internet and the presence of professional grading standards. I buy both raw and graded and personally find that the grading services are reasonably consistent. Obviously there are mistakes made, as many around here like to point out, but I believe they account for a relatively small number of total cards graded. Granted, I am not buying high grade/high dollar items but it is nice to purchase a PSA 3 or SGC 40 card and have a reasonable idea as to condition (not to mention a level of protection from the holder). Does this add to the cost of the hobby and benefit the card investors; I would imagine yes. Has it opened up the hobby to more people and provided some base-line level of grading standards for collectors to reference; in my opinion yes.


Adam B

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Posted By: William Heitman

The first article of mine that was published in The Trader Speaks some 30 years ago was on grading cards. I called for a standardized system of grading and made suggestions as to what I thought it should be. I have no doubt that the grading services are a step in the right direction. Two areas, though, that are inherent to any grading system would be the questions of authenticity and issues like trimming cards. Saying that a card is "authentic" is not the same as saying that it is in original shape. If a card has been played with, it should not be "graded." During the '70's a horrifying number of trimmed cards were thrust into collectors' hands by some overzealous, and less than honest, young dealers, who may not have known better, but should have. It was, in fact, common for these dealers to trim cards to achieve sharp corners, which were, at the time one of the prime things people looked at on cards. It was very common for these dealers to alter a vg card into an ex-mt looking card by trimming just a little off of the borders. Just about everyone knew that the McNall T206 Wagner was trimmed, even the guy who did the grading, and knew that it shouldn't have received a grade at all. Bruce McNall made his "fortune" as a coin dealer and sold a lot through mail order. He knew the value of slabbing that card. We have all known people who believe something to be true just because they've heard it said to be true over and over. Well that slabbed card makes a perpetual statement of truth, but it isn't true. I have collected coins just as long as I have collected cards. I loved both. Sometimes coin dealers submit the same coin for grading to the same grading services over and over, just hoping to get the card graded higher than it really should be. I once bought a slabbed 1909S VDB Lincoln penny from a dealer that was graded Red MS65 who stated to me "don't ever remove that coin--it'll never get the 'red' designation a second time." While I certainly believe standardized grading is essential to this hobby, I thought it should benefit collectors greatly, and not just seem to be a vehicle to bring in investors.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

This thread has gone from the interesting "10.5 mil", to the very interesting "not 10.5 mil but really about 14k", and on to the fantastic, the history of the Gretzky-McNall card. That is what I want to read!!!! And I like seeing people talk about The Trader Speaks, and Mr. Burdick, Mr. Bray, and Mr. Nagy.... I love the history of the hobby, wish someone would do a book about it. Get down an oral history of how things were from Mr. Heitman and others, soon. Long live the old timers!

But I am about worn out with grading talk... I used to NEVER buy graded cards. Then I broke down and bought one. Since then I've bought several. And that is why the good lord gave us hacksaws, to liberate these innocent little fellows who don't deserve a plastic tomb. And with shame, I've now had 3 cards graded and sold... because they would sell for MUCH more if graded. Partly because the collectors are no longer dealing face to face, and how do you know if it's real?? Partly because some collectors with more money than sense can't be bothered to learn about discerning the authenticity of a card. It still tickles me to look at T206s spread on a table, and I point out the 2 American Beauty cards to a surprised dealer who doesn't know that the cigarettes were smaller diameter so the package was smaller so the cards were factory "slendered" (ha, thought I was going to use that "T" word, didn't you!) And I guess some folks just want to collect slabbed cards. For me, I'll keep my hacksaw. And I hope whoever bought my 3 Old Judges use a hacksaw, too.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

most of the major holders will pop open with a screwdriver and twist of the wrist.

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Posted By: Brian Daniels

How much would you estimate Clarence's Saxaphone to be worth in Mastro ????

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I estimate that it will go for just under what they got last auction for:

"Mr. Robinson's Glitter Shoes"