Approaching final confirmation of the BROAD LEAF 460 & Red HINDU matched "twins"

[tedzan]

My hypothesis that the 350/460 series of T206's with BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU backs were printed with identical fronts is nearly confirmed.
These cards were printed and issued in the Fall/Winter of 1910. The 23 cards listed here are approaching a final count of the BL 460 / red HINDU
matched "twins".
For more info regarding this theory, check out this link......http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...broad+leaf+460





These 23 subjects have been confirmed with both the BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU backs......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)


The following 350/460 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back, but not yet with the BROAD LEAF 460 back:

Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)

I would appreciate it, if any one on this forum can confirm any of the above three T206's with a BROAD LEAF 460 back.


Conversely......
The following 350/460 subjects have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back, but not yet with the red HINDU back:

Dougherty (arm in air)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

I would appreciate it, if any one on this forum can confirm any of the above four T206's with a red HINDU back.


NOTE....regarding red HINDU cards......

Unfortunately, in the 1990's, there were some unscrupulous (but very talented) scam "artists" who bought up many red HINDU common cards.
They modified these cards to create Re-Fronted star cards, which were so authentic that they fooled the graders at PSA and SGC.

Fortunately, these fake cards did not fool the T206 experts. As, the scammers were not smart enough to know the legitimate T206 front/back
combos on such cards as the various Cobb's, Matty's, etc. Therefore, most of these T206 fakes were detected.

But the bad news is....that we will never really know how many red HINDU cards were lost in this process.



TED Z

[philliesphan]

Ted:

I was unaware that Magee Bat had been confirmed with a BroadLeaf 460 back. I know we previously agreed that it was theoretical and a plausible example, but have you definitely confirmed it exists with BL460?

Cheers

[tedzan]

The last time we talked, Magee with a BROAD LEAF 460 back was not confirmed. Since then, it was reported to have surfaced.
I did not personally see this card. And, I was hoping you might have found out about it, since you were searching for it.

That fact would convince me that this report was true. But, since you have not seen it, at this point, I am now skeptical of it.

For now, I will relegate Magee to the unknown status.


P.S......will I see you at the Philly Show in Valley Forge this weekend ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

OK guys, one more try to find these missing BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU cards.

The following 350/460 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back, but not yet with the BROAD LEAF 460 back:

Chase (portrait-blue)
Donlin (bat)
Magee (bat)

I would appreciate it, if any one on this forum can confirm any of the above three T206's with a BROAD LEAF 460 back.


Conversely......
The following 350/460 subjects have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back, but not yet with the red HINDU back:

Dougherty (arm in air)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
Reulbach (no glove)

I would appreciate it, if any one on this forum can confirm any of the above four T206's with a red HINDU back.


Thanks,

TED Z

[ethicsprof]

once again, well researched and astutely articulated.
many,many thanks

all the best,ole friend

barry

[tedzan]

With the recent Southern find of the 42 red HINDU cards, I have updated this BL / RH "twins" list by adding the red Cobb and Murphy (bat) cards.

Finally, we have confirmation of authentic red Cobb cards (2) with the red HINDU backs.

And, John Wonka will be very pleased with this find of the Murphy card.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

So this would be the only known Murphy Red Hindu, correct? That is awesome- I hope you get it Wonka

Are there any others from the find that would be the only known example?

Sincerely, Clayton

P.S. never mind on the question, I'm just being lazy....

[atx840]

The Texas group included a Joss throwing which is 1/1 on PSA. Another example has been noted but apparently no scan or sales records. It's currently up at Goodwin.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

The Texas group included a Joss throwing which is 1/1 on PSA. Another example has been noted but apparently no scan or sales records. It's currently up at Goodwin.

Chris

A Joss (pitching) with a red HINDU back was confirmed several years ago and has been on my red HINDU list since 2007.

I don't think it was ever graded. So, to date, there are at least 2 (or 3) that are known in the hobby.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

So this would be the only known Murphy Red Hindu, correct? That is awesome- I hope you get it Wonka

Are there any others from the find that would be the only known example?

Sincerely, Clayton

P.S. never mind on the question, I'm just being lazy....

Clayton

The only new red HINDU input we have here from the Texas find and the 42-card Southern find is Murphy (batting).

Some think the Joss (pitching) is a new input because PSA (or SGC) did not have this card in their pop report prior to these finds. However, 5 years ago a Joss (pitching)
card was confirmed in the Red HINDU survey that I was conducting in 2007. Obviously, it was never graded.

Anyhow, I bring to your attention what I find very interesting about the 40 different red HINDU cards that have been confirmed to date. What's very interesting is that it
appears that the 12 red HINDU subjects from the 460-only series are much more available than any of the 28 red HINDU subjects from the 350/460 series.

Furthermore, my guess is that guys like Crandall, Geyer, Hummel, McGraw, Tannehill and Wheat were Double-Printed.

Any thoughts on this observation ?


TED Z

[atx840]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Some think the Joss (pitching) is a new input because PSA (or SGC) did not have this card in their pop report prior to these finds. Z

I do not think anyone contests a previously known example, it's been confirmed on several lists. The Murphy to me is great news, to know a card is possible and after a 100 years surfaces, very cool.

[tedzan]

Hey Chris

I recall that I have at least three T206 front/back combos that have not appeared in either PSA or SGC pop reports.
But, that doesn't mean they are "unique". I'm sure ungraded examples of them are possibly out there.

Anyhow, I appreciate what you are saying regarding the red HINDU Murphy.


These are my three T206's which I noted above.......

Jennings (one hand) / AB 460 ...... SGC A

Lake (ball in hand) / AB 460

Herzog / UZIT

.



We can continue these discussions (or any other topics pertaining to T206's)at the National....will you be there ?


TED Z

[Runscott]

Ted, I always appreciate your posts, especially when you get excited about T206 research - you add a very human element to discussions. It reminds me of the passion that everyone seemed to have when I first got into collecting old cardboard, and I'm a rookie by the standards of you, Barry and the others who had been these old cards for ten or more years when I first started.

[tedzan]

Hey good buddy......I'm the oldest "dinosaur" on this forum, but I like to stay young at heart and this hobby certainly does it for me.
And, you are correct about the passion we all had back in the 1970's and the 1980's talking and collecting and researching BB cards.
It was a new phenomena back then.....and, the cost of acquiring all those little pieces of cardboard was very, very reasonable.

So, I bought everything....Goodwin's, Goudey's, T-cards, Candy-cards, Diamond Stars', Play Ball's, Leaf's, Bowman's, Topps', Fleer's.


Thanks, I really appreciate your very kind words.

Take care,

TED Z

[Clark7781]

Ted, you are a true gentleman.