Dawson only inductee..........

[howard38]

Cy Young voting differs from MVP voting. For most of Blyleven's career Cy Young voters only chose their top three while MVP voters chose their top ten. This made a top five finish in Cy Young balloting significantly more difficult than a top five MVP finish.

[howard38]

Another reason he only made two all-star teams was that he was a better second half pitcher for most of his career.

First half: .555 W-L %, 3.44 ERA

Second Half: .517, 3.10

[Bobsbats]

I have read most of the replies to this thread and I can't understand where some people are coming from. The whole Alomar thing I don't get....very good player, yes....Hall of Famer..NO. How many people on this board have complained every year about who doesnt belong? It is the called the Hall of Fame, not the hall of pretty good. Players that hang on for 20 plus years and build up their stats don't belong either. A player who plays 20 years and has a .250 average has the ability to have 3000 hits. Does that make him a Hall of Famer? I dont think so... Like alot of things now, I think mediocre is looked upon as great and I dont believe it is....its mediocre.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Bobsbats

I have read most of the replies to this thread and I can't understand where some people are coming from. The whole Alomar thing I don't get....very good player, yes....Hall of Famer..NO. How many people on this board have complained every year about who doesnt belong? It is the called the Hall of Fame, not the hall of pretty good. Players that hang on for 20 plus years and build up their stats don't belong either. A player who plays 20 years and has a .250 average has the ability to have 3000 hits. Does that make him a Hall of Famer? I dont think so... Like alot of things now, I think mediocre is looked upon as great and I dont believe it is....its mediocre.

12x All-Star, 10 Gold Gloves, 300 Career AVG, Over 2,700 Hits, almost 500 SB, 2 World Series wins, 371 OBP, over 500 Doubles, I can go on....

How in the world is that not a Hall of Famer, Alomar wasn't just good, he was GREAT.

[familytoad]

Alomar is/was clearly a HOF in my book. I won't repeat the impressive stats from the last post...but c'mon...how many second basemen have ever compiled the all around speed, defense, extra base power numbers he has?Playing on a championship team usually helps everyone out too. Check.
This one is an easy pick.

But the whole first ballot thing is dumb. Maybe the writers are trying to use it as a delineator for past members who were voted in, but don't really compare to some of the all-time greats.
I've seen many discussions that mention creating an "inner circle" for ATG's and perhaps being a "First Ballot HOFer" is an attempt to create that separation. Dunno, but put in Alomar on his second try!

Blyleven is in a tough spot for me. I can't overlook that many wins , K's and 60 shutouts. To a certain degree, that is domination over his opponents (the opposing team) and that's what players are supposed to do. I can live without another borderline HOFer being elected though.

As said earlier, two wrongs don't make a right...and there are MANY players already elected who were far from dominant. Bert is right on the line, and it appears the voters think so too...

I think Tim Raines and Andre Dawson (and Jim Rice for that matter) are excellent examples of players for whom you can compare HOF-eligibility to.
My rule would be, you must be BETTER than those three players, without much debate..and you are in!
If you are almost as good as Rice, Dawson and Raines (toss in MANY others on either side of the line), or just slightly better ...you are out.

[Chris Counts]

Roberto Alomar retired with a .300 lifetime batting average, 210 home runs, a .371 on base average, 474 steals, won 10 Gold Gloves and was the best player on a team that won back-to-back World Series. If you think those stats aren't worthy of the Hall of Fame, you'll have an easier time convincing me the earth is flat ...

[nolemmings]

.

[pwilk17]

All I read and hear about are lifetime statistics of players when it comes to deciding whether or not they are worthy of the Hall of Fame. I agree that this is very important and should be the main criteria used for the vast majority of candidates. However, if it truly is a Hall of Fame then Don Larsen definitely deserves to be in. Same thing with the Hockey Hall of Fame. Paul Henderson definitely deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. However since they are Halls of Statistics, they are not members. And yet they are far more famous than most of the members in their respective halls.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

However, if it truly is a Hall of Fame then Don Larsen definitely deserves to be in.

I believe his perfect game is represented in Cooperstown, I think that is enough.

[bigtrain]

but by any standard, I think he is in the top 10 or 12 second basemen of all time. He and Blyleven both just missed this year and are likely to be elected next year. I love the Hall of Fame and visit every year so I really enjoy these debates as to who should be elected and who should not. The problem as I see it is that most of us think of the Hall as a place for only the greatest "elite" players, Ruth, Mathewson, Johnson, Wagner, Cobb, Mays, Aaron and the like. The fact is that almost from the beginning, certainly from the 1940s and 50s, it has been the Hall of Very Good. I'm sure that we can all rattle off a dozen names that arguably don't belong there. How about Rick Ferrell, Tinker, Evers, Chance, Tommy McCarthy, Schalk, Hooper, Haines, George Kelly, Bottomley, Lindstrom, Hafey, Marquard, Bancroft, Combs, Coveleski, Faber, Hack Wilson, Chuck Klein? There are almost 20 questionable members off the top of my head. I could easily argue more modern selections were also mistakes. My point is: should the Hall standards now be raised after 70 years? I think that too much time has passed to now try to transform the HoF into something it is not.

[bigtrain]

Barry, I think they would hold an induction for other award winners regardless of whether a player is elected by the BBWAA or the Veteran's Committee. Most Hall of Famers do attend induction. They have a banquet and golf tournament among other events. This year they are starting a new tradition, a parade down Main Street on Saturday night. Although I don't think that Dawson and Herzog will draw a big crowd, many people do come to town to see the Hall of Famers, get autographs, attend the card show etc. I would think attendance would be down this year due to the economy as well as the lack of a big drawing card. With a smaller crowd, this might be the ideal year to go.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Anyone have a scan of the 1977 Montreal Expos Team Issued Postcard picturing Dawson?

[barrysloate]

Thanks Tom. I don't think they ever had a year when nobody was inducted.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

I'm sure that we can all rattle off a dozen names that arguably don't belong there. How about...Hooper...

I hear this a lot, but don't accept it.

A few points about Hooper:

- He was a lead-off man with more pop than most,
- His job was to score runs - he scored 1429 of them (#79 all time), averaging 100 per season over his entire career,
- Top 100 all time in career base hits,
- #39 all time in triples, which means, in that era, both speed and power,
- Drew over 1000 walks, averaging 80 per season,
- Glove? Not even a question. One of the greatest. Key component of what many regard as the best outfield of all time,
- World Series? Unreal with both glove and bat. Won 4 World Series titles with Red Sox. The key player who was a constant in all 4 Red Sox championship years. First player ever to hit 2 home runs in a single WS game in 1915,
- Also stole 375 bases,
- The first and longest part of his career was played in the dead ball era with Boston. He hit .272 over this period. He went to Chicago roughly when the lively ball came into play and after that - in the twilight of his career - he hit .302...pretty good evidence of the effect of the lively ball on the stats of some players.

So I strongly disagree with the widely-held idea that Hooper does not belong.

I also disgree with the old chestnut that Tinker-Evers-Chance are in because of a poem. Evers for the reasons best set out by Bill James. Chance's career as both a player and a great manager combined make him worthy.

Cheers,
Blair

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Jeff,

Both Blyleven and Sutton pitched pre-ESPN, pre-MLB Network and pre-regional network where every game was on television. Sutton pitched in the media metropolis of Los Angeles and would definitely get more media attention and post-season consideration. Blyleven toiled in obscurity with Minnesota, Texas, Pittsburgh, Cleveland and California (before anyone in Los Angeles noticed). If Blyleven would have pitched in larger media markets, we would absolutely have contended for multiple Cy Young Awards. Blyleven should not be penalized for not getting the media access. With the age we're in now, we can move past that and focus on the pure, hard facts. Bert Blyleven is a Hall of Famer whatever era he pitched in.

Agree 100%. The guy was 5th career in strikeouts, it's not like he was merely a "very good" pitcher. His complete games, shutouts, almost 300 victories. Can you put guys like Sutton and Early Wynn in just because they had 300 wins and ignore Blyleven who pitched on some horrendous teams.

[tbob]

A lot of guys here are too young to have seen Dawson play for the Expos. He was a stellar offensive AND defensive player. I believe he was also the only player who ever won an MVP award while playing on a LAST PLACE team. I still remember the year he played without a contract and told Dallas Green of the Cubs to merely fill in an amount. He had an incredible year and Dallas Green wrote in "$500,000" on the check which made The Hawk the second lowest paid player on the team (according to ESPN).
I had the opportunity to meet Andre Dawson and he, Ernie Banks and Brooks Robinson (who i also met) were the three classiest gentlemen and nicest players I have ever met. Good for the Hawk! Congrats Andre!

[whitehse]

I posted this on the CU boards but wanted to share it here...Sorry for not making the original post here!! I just wanted to confirm what other have said about Andre Dawson and he being one of the nicest I have ever met.

I am glad to see Andre Get in... He definitely deserves it. At the risk of sounding like I am telling stories from band camp...a few personal experiences with "The Hawk"

Some may or may not know that I worked for the Cubs in various jobs from 1982 to 1988. I did start out as game day security and because of my larger size I was put in places where...well.... they needed a big guy at the door so to speak. One of the 1st places I was assigned to was the door leading to the umpire's dressing room. Now this was located behind the Cub's dugout under the stands. If you have never been down there, imagine a dark, damp crawl space in your house with thousands of fans screaming above you. Throw in a bad smell of hot dogs and nachos and a few large rats and you get the picture. The umpires had to pass through the Cub's dugout to get to their dressing room and the players also had access to this area as well. On cold days many of the players would come back to that area to swing a bat and stay loose. I had purchased the recent edition of Sport magazine where the cover asked something along the lines of "who is the best player in the majors?" and to a man, each player that hung out there with me said without a doubt, at that time it was Dawson. Many were practically in awe of his abilities and swore up and down he was the best.

Fast forward to 1987 spring training. I was now in the front office and had traveled to Mesa, Arizona with my brother for spring training to drive a player car back to Chicago. I dont know if they still do it but back then the players would hire someone thay could trust, usually a clubhouse guy or front office person to drive their cars back to Chicago as they would not be able to drive them back themselves. My brother and I arrived at spring training and found Lee Smith, who I had come to know pretty well from working at Wrigley. Lee would always hang out with the stadium employees and shoot the bull for hours with us. He said that he would be at a local bar and grill and that we should join him that night. This was the spring training that Dawson made his Cubs debut and upon entering the bar and grill we quickly found Lee sitting with Mr. Dawson. We were invited to sit down and had dinner with them that night. Andre was a very soft spoken person who had a lot to say but you had to pull it out of him. The funny thing was that many came over and asked for autographs and since we were sitting with these 2 major stars we were asked for ours as well. I remember telling a few kids I am nobody but Lee looked at me and said "dont lie to the kids...sign the dang ball for him!!". I signed my name and somewhere out there somebody is trying to figure out who that other signature with Lee Smith and Andre Dawson is.

I found Andre (and Lee Smith) to be some of the most down to earth and gracious people I have ever met. The hall of fame sure has found a great guy to be enshrined and hopefully someday Lee will join him as well.

[calvindog]

I just read an incredible fact about Blyleven: in his entire 22 year career, he won only four games in which he gave up five earned runs or more. I wonder how many pitchers this year alone won that many games giving up five runs?