Old Judge Poll

[quinnsryche]

A mutli-tiered question for all you OJ experts: What is 1. the best looking OJ of all, 2. the worst looking, 3. silliest pose, 4. rarest single card (no color or spelling variations) and 5. most expensive single card. Please post scans if you have them and let's have some fun!

[Steve D]

I would think the rarest single card, and most expensive single card would be the Cap Anson in uniform. Supposedly, there are only 1 or 2 examples known to exist.

As far as the silliest pose, I'd say any of the cards where the player is laying down, appearing to be asleep.


Steve

[uffda51]

This is certainly a candidate for silliest OJ.

[E93]

The Anson in uniform is not the rarest. I believe there are four known, but two are in museums and thus not circulating in the hobby. Several of the California league cards and a few other recent discoveries have only one known example.
JimB

edited to add: The Anson-in-uniform would be by far the most valuable/expensive if it ever were offered for sale.

[barrysloate]

There are four known Ansons in Uniform; one is in the Burdick Collection in NYC, the other three are in private collections. It would certainly be the most valuable Old Judge.

Virtually all the California League players are one or two known. The rarest player is probably Flynn, Omaha; Gibson, Athletics is likewise extremely rare, and there are a couple of other players with only a few examples known.

There isn't a lot of variety in terms of poses, but among the sillier poses are the studio ones with balls hanging from strings. The best looking ones are probably the portraits. Kelly with the white cap is certainly among the best.

[kkkkandp]

There are quite a few Old Judge cards that are particularly appealing to me picture wise. The William Horner/E.H. Warner two-player card (234-3) is nice because it isn't a contrived two-player "action" pose like many of the others. The Buck Ewing and mascot (149-11) and Ed Williamson and mascot (502-7) are interesting in the same way the Art Whitney and dog (499-1) is because of the contrast of the subjects. The Kid Madden with bat and rock (288-7) has great composition. Perhaps my favorite, however, is the California League card of Cornelius Doyle because it is outside and fans can be seen in the background.

In my mind the worst poses are those where the subject's face cannot be seen.

There are a number of odd poses that would qualify as silly (many of the laying down poses look like the subject has passed out or is having a seizure and there are quite a few that could easily pass for Monty Python Ministry of Silly Walks poses), but two that stand out in my mind are the Bill Sowders with the ball behind his head (431-5) and the Pete Hotaling holding up his pants (236-2) poses.

[barrysloate]

And another great rarity is Anderson, St. Paul.

[Fred]

The opinions of the following:

• "the best looking OJ of all"
  
• "the worst looking"
  
• "silliest pose"
  

Could best be answered by opening the Bible on OJs that was just released last year and going through all of the pictures.

As far as the rarest OJ goes, that's a tough one because the rarest one is probably still out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

I'd have to agree with Kevin about Hotaling (236-2) as one of the more silly poses. I'm kind of partial to the Connie Mack pose (285-2) where the ball is set up to be coming towards him and it looks like it's going to hit him square in the chest (as he watches it).

I also like the Radbourn 377-1 where he's flipping the bird at his waist. That one reminds me of the (I think it is 1974 Topps) Billy Martin that shows his middle finger extended down the bat.

[rhettyeakley]

The Hotaling is certainly a strange pose. It looks like he just ate some bad food and is getting ready to throw up, but he has a strange smirk on his face as he is doing it.

[DixieBaseball]

I think there is only 1 Charlie Krehmeyer (Cali) card known to exist. He played for Nashville in 1886 and I think it is safe to say, I won't be adding him to my Nashville Collection anytime soon.

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by Fred

The opinions of the following:

• "the best looking OJ of all"
  
• "the worst looking"
  
• "silliest pose"
  

Could best be answered by opening the Bible on OJs that was just released last year and going through all of the pictures.

As far as the rarest OJ goes, that's a tough one because the rarest one is probably still out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

I'd have to agree with Kevin about Hotaling (236-2) as one of the more silly poses. I'm kind of partial to the Connie Mack pose (285-2) where the ball is set up to be coming towards him and it looks like it's going to hit him square in the chest (as he watches it).

I also like the Radbourn 377-1 where he's flipping the bird at his waist. That one reminds me of the (I think it is 1974 Topps) Billy Martin that shows his middle finger extended down the bat.

What is this "Bible" and where would I get one?

[Fred]

I call it "the Book" or the "OJ Bible" because it's a very comprehensive book about the N172 offering. This is one of those "must have" hobby books. You'll enjoy "the Book", even if you don't collect OJs. There's a lot of history in "the Book". Short player bios are just another feature.

The authors and other contributors to this incredible effort are N54baseball board members. In the acknowledgement section of "the Book" you'll also find the name of one of the contributors to this thread. Sorry Kevin, you're now exposed.

I'm sure someone here will be able to provide the information you'll need to get this amazing OJ reference. The price paid for the book is really nothing when you realize the amount of time and selflessness that it took to get this book published and into the hands of hobbyist that were begging for something like this (for years).

[barrysloate]

I was just flipping pages in the Old Judge book and found a card I have never seen or heard of before: Horner and Warner, Milwaukee. That has to be a very rare card.

[E93]

The book is called "The Photographic Baseball Cards of Goodwin & Company (1886-1890) by Jay Miller, Joe Gonsowski, and Richard Masson. All contribute to this forum. You can contact one of them to get a copy.
JimB

[oldjudge]

You can order the book via Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=all

Hope you enjoy it!

[felada]

Barry
I believe the horner and warner double player card is described in Lew's book. At the time he wrote the volume it was a relatively recent discovery along with a few other double player cards, which are also not easy to come by.

[E93]

FYI, the amazon link says they are out of stock and don't know when they will get a new one.
JimB

[barrysloate]

Thanks David. I've seen enough OJ's over the years to know that that one has to be really tough.

[Joe_G.]

As already stated, the book will be your best single source to study the set. There is a chapter dedicated to set rarities including a list of the top 100 most difficult subjects to obtain. The book is rich in photography with over 2,500 images allowing you to study the set in detail not previously possible.

If interested in a copy, there are a couple options outside of Amazon including California Sportscards, sometimes eBay, or even from Richard Masson himself in a pinch. Here is one that ended a couple days ago, I'm sure another will be listed before long.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-Judge-Photo-...item2c5274b239

California Sportscards:

http://www.californiasportscards.com...-p-324679.html

Back to your original post, the most difficult players to obtain are the 19 catalogued members of the California League. Some of the cards are unique with all but Veach having only a single Old Judge pose (Veach also has some tough poses with St. Paul). I should note that McDonald also has a second pose as a Gypsy Queen portrait (a unique card). Outside of the California League cards of 1889, many of the sets rarities reside with some of the players only issued 1888 Fb cards and 1886/87 Script cards. If you extend rarities to individual poses or even team change variations, the list of unique examples grows considerably including some of the 1890 NL/PL cards. My favorite unique pose is the portrait of Deacon White (496-9).

Kevin Cummings listed most of the poses I find interesting and silly. One that I don't believe has been mentioned yet is the "Long & Short" of Nicol & Reilly.

Barry, how could you miss the Horner / Warner card, you proof read an early draft for us? That is a rare two player card you don't see everyday. I too like the composition of Milwaukees pitcher and cather.

[PolarBear]

I know nothing about the N172 set. The books looks like an excellent read though, even if you don't collect them.

Just curious, how many different Indianapolis cards are there and are any rare?

[oldjudge]

Most Indianapolis cards are not very tough to find. However, the Indianapolis cards of HOFer Amos Rusie are scarce. His New York 1890 cards are true rarities.

[barrysloate]

Joe- when Jay sent me the text to proofread I had either a grainy picture or no picture at all, so I focused exclusively on the text...but you don't expect me to remember all 2000+ poses, do you?

[Joe_G.]

Indianapolis would be an interesting team to collect with numerous cards issued in 1887, 1888, and 1889 with the following break-down:

1887 (all "0" numbered cards) - team finished 8th (last)
13 players accounting for 35 poses

1888 (mostly type Fb cards) - team finished 7th
15 players accounting for 45 poses (mostly re-issued 1887 cards)

1889 - team finished 7th
18 players accounting for 48 poses (mostly re-issued 1887 & 1888 cards)

If you are serious about collecting a team set, I can pull a complete list together for you. By far, the most notable player would be HOFer Amos Rusie who was introduced to the set in 1889 with 5 poses. Other notables include Corcoran (a board member hoards these), Jerry Denny, and Pebbly Jack Glasscock to name a few.

[PolarBear]

Wow, thanks for the detailed info Joe. I apreciate the offer to pull together a list but I just had a passing curiosity.

I'm a little confused by the "reissued" cards. Are those separate cards needed for a complete player/pose set? How many different player/pose cards does Indy have?

I saw your Detroit thread on a N172 search and it had 28 cards for a complete set. I guess I was thinking Indy must be similar.

Thanks again for the info. Interesting set for sure.

[Joe_G.]

My complete run of Detroit players covers only the cards issued in 1887 (the year they won the Championship). Some of the 1887 cards (players/poses) were re-issued in 1888 (different card design denoted as type "Fa" and "Fb") together with some new Detroit player introductions.

Indy is similar with their first cards appearing in 1887 with many of the players being re-issued cards in subsequent years together with new members being added each year (like Rusie in 1889).

To answer your question, a complete Indy player set would number 28 as follows (~100 poses).

1887 Members
Arundel, Tug
Bassett, Charles
Boyle, Handsome
Burnham, Watch
Cahill, Patsy
Corcoran, Larry
Denny, Jerry
Glasscock, Pebbly Jack
Healy, Egyptian
McGeachy, Jack
Myers, George
Seery, Emmett
Shomberg, Otto

New 1888 Members
Bogart, Walter
Buckley, Dick
Daley, Con
Esterbrook, Dude
Hines, Paul
Moffet, Sam
Shreve, Lev
White, Deacon (actually an error card listed as McGreachery w Indy)

New 1889 Members
(note: All but Burdick & Rusie are simply team change cards)
Burdick, Bill
Conway, Pete
Getzien, Charlie
Rusie, Amos
Schoeneck, Jumbo
Sullivan, Marty
Whitney, Grasshopper

Like Jay noted, most of the players are relatively easy, but some will pose a challenge. If you consider a team set complete without the errant Deacon White portrait, it is quite possible to obtain one card of each player over the course of a several year active search.

[vwtdi]

I always thought this Fogarty was somewhat silly. And since it was asked about, heres the Rusie for Don along with 2 others that were mentioned.

[ctownboy]

Since this thread seems to have died, here is another Amos Rusie card with a different pose for Don.