Piedmont Question, RE Wagner & Plank

[PolarBear]

I've been reading about the 150 series and T206 Resource makes the claim that Wagner and Plank were late editions to the 150 Series and not part of the "original" 150 subjects.

They also say that the Sovereign 150 Series represents the original 150.

I've read the "Piedmont first" theory here and it makes sense for one reason - The Magie error is a Piedmont only back and Magie HAD to be part of the original 150, meaning the Piedmont backs were issued first.

But, that begs the question - Why were Wagner and Plank only issued in packs with Sweet Caporal? If Piedmont was first, it seems like those two would have been found in Piedmont packs. I realize that Piedmont backs exist for both but my understanding is that all of them were cut from unissued sheets. (1 Wagner and 4 Planks total?)

It does make it seem like both cards were released later in the 150 run.

And about late 150 subjects, any theories about Jennings being Piedmont 150 only?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I've been reading about the 150 series and T206 Resource makes the claim that Wagner and Plank were late editions to the 150 Series and not part of the "original" 150 subjects.

They also say that the Sovereign 150 Series represents the original 150.

I've read the "Piedmont first" theory here and it makes sense for one reason - The Magie error is a Piedmont only back and Magie HAD to be part of the original 150, meaning the Piedmont backs were issued first.

But, that begs the question - Why were Wagner and Plank only issued in packs with Sweet Caporal? If Piedmont was first, it seems like those two would have been found in Piedmont packs. I realize that Piedmont backs exist for both but my understanding is that all of them were cut from unissued sheets. (1 Wagner and 4 Planks total?)

It does make it seem like both cards were released later in the 150 run.

And about late 150 subjects, any theories about Jennings being Piedmont 150 only?

I believe - and I'm sort of alone in this - that the 150 series as issued, like the other series was more complex than that.
Some of the cards were printed with revised art at least three times.
I also believe that not all the 150 were issued at the same time.
And that the groups issued were not the same for all companies.
And that some Piedmonts were printed using up leftover sheets during the 150/350 transition (as well as some P350 backs printed on what were intended to be 150's)

[PolarBear]

By revised art, do you mean the Elberfeld, Dahlen, etc. team changes?

[sando69]

or, how about the tinker- hands on knees?

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by sando69

or, how about the tinker- hands on knees?

What's unique about that one in regard to the 150 series? The Chicago under type?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by sando69

or, how about the tinker- hands on knees?

That's the clearest example.

Chicago clearly visible on the uniform
Partly visible,
not there at all.

As far as I know there are only two of the first, and the other two I think are about equal.

since the stones would have had the images laid out with transfers, they represent three different press runs.

What we will probably never know is if the art was changed for Tinker only, or if they did small changes to other cards as well.

I have a card that I think might be a similar thing to the Chicago clearly visible, but it's in rough shape, and I'm not positive.

The mix of cards on a sheet changed, since we have only 12 cards that are 150 only and lots of evidence from the P150 plate scratches that the sheet was larger than 12 cards wide.
There's also the bit of packing plant log describing a packing as being for Philadelphia territory or other than Philadelphia territory

[PolarBear]

The different printings makes sense, and I agree that it's more complicated than a straightforward Piedmont first theory.

What I hoped is that it might be possible to determine the original 150 subjects before the substitution of subjects occurred. (assuming substitutions occurred at all)

It's recognized that there are 156 150 subjects, and we can combine Magee with Magie, since Magie obviously had to be part of the original 150.

That leaves 5 cards that I think are candidates for not being in the original 150 roster - Wagner, Plank, Lundgren, Jennings, and Crawford.

None of those 5 are found with Sovereign 150 backs.

Crawford is SC and Piedmont.

Jennings and Lundgren are Piedmont only.

Wagner and Plank are SC and Piedmont, but never issued in Piedmont packs, effectively making them SC only.

Unfortunately, none of that adds up to anything straight forward as far as being able to determine if there were actually 150 original subjects.

It would be a lot easier if both SC and Sovereign had only 150, and Piedmont included the other 5 in issued packs. Then it might make sense.

So, I suppose the answer probably is: There isn't really an original 150.

I'd love to continue the conversation and maybe shed some light on how the different printings affect the 5 subjects that aren't included with all three 150 backs.