Why I think Cobb wasn't printed with a Brown Hindu back

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Your reference to the 34 subjects printed with the Hindu and SC649 backs is exactly what I'm proposing a sheet or sheets that was printed together in the same stage probably with Piedmont 150 - Sweet Caporal 150/649 and Hindu.

I think there were 156 subjects that were printed with 150 back.

Pat

You say "34-card" sheet....and I say "36-card" sheet. I shall repeat.

American Lithograph's small size printing presses had 19-inch track widths, which were sufficiently wide to print 12 cards across the sheet....hence, 36, 48, 72, 96 card sheets.
Therefore, such a sheet with 34 different subjects will have 2 double-prints included to fill-out that sheet. In the SWEET CAP 150 #649 case, my guess is that Johnson & Matty
were double-printed. Just like when TOPPS Hi# sheet (97 different subjects) had Mantle, Robinson, and Thomson double-printed to fill out their 100-card sheet.

In the Southern League case, it's anyone's guess which two players were double-printed. As a teenager, I worked in a Print Shop and I'm very familiar with printing practices.


Come-on Pat, you're nit-picking again..... "I think there were 156 subjects that were printed with 150 back "

I stated.... [B]"There are 155 different subjects"....that does not include the MAGIE error card.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

You say "34-card" sheet....and I say "36-card" sheet. I shall repeat.

American Lithograph's small size printing presses had 19-inch track widths, which were sufficiently wide to print 12 cards across the sheet....hence, 36, 48, 72, 96 card sheets.
Therefore, such a sheet with 34 different subjects will have 2 double-prints included to fill-out that sheet. In the SWEET CAP 150 #649 case, my guess is that Johnson & Matty
were double-printed. Just like when TOPPS Hi# sheet (97 different subjects) had Mantle, Robinson, and Thomson double-printed to fill out their 100-card sheet.

In the Southern League case, it's anyone's guess which two players were double-printed. As a teenager, I worked in a Print Shop and I'm very familiar with printing practices.


Come-on Pat, you're nit-picking again..... "I think there were 156 subjects that were printed with 150 back "

I stated.... [B]"There are 155 different subjects"....that does not include the MAGIE error card.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

They do seem to have printed cards on much, much larger sheets for at least some sets in the ATC 1909-1912 project. Is our proof all T206's were done on 19 inch sheets really definitive?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

They do seem to have printed cards on much, much larger sheets for at least some sets in the ATC 1909-1912 project. Is our proof all T206's were done on 19 inch sheets really definitive?

Here's one of the plate scratch sheets that I put together a few years ago using the actual cards. You have to wait a minute for it to load so you can enlarge it.

https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...203%20Full.jpg

Here's the front image of the Seymour and Cicotte that's pointed out in white on that sheet.

[IMG][/IMG]

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Here's one of the plate scratch sheets that I put together a few years ago using the actual cards. You have to wait a minute for it to load so you can enlarge it.

https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...203%20Full.jpg

Here's the front image of the Seymour and Cicotte that's pointed out in white on that sheet.

[IMG][/IMG]

This is marvelous, Pat. I must have the missed the original thread, I hadn’t realized the scratches had carried us this far. I count at least 24 across here in this layout.

[Pat R]

Thanks Greg, the best organized info on the plate scratches is in Luke's blog, there have been a few corrections and changes since he posted the articles on them but most of the info is still the same.

If this link doesn't take you to them you can type plate scratch in the search function and bring them up.


http://www.thatt206life.com/?s=plate+scratch

[steve B]

Pats work on the scratches has been amazing. especially doing it with actual cards instead of just scans. I'd been working off saved scans for a while but stopped when I realized Pat had about twice as many cards as I had scans. (And all put together in less time too!)

I still think the short partial scratch on this sheet actually belongs to one side, probably the right. that would make a sheet 24 cards wide with an uneven distribution of subjects.

The group of new information that's come together beginning with looking into the T220 silver sheets will change how we see things. The known track width at ALC is not necessarily material considering Brett Litho printing millions of cards for other ATC sets.
Having done some quick math before, even Scot Rs low estimate for T206 production would have meant nearly constant printing more likely on multiple flatbed presses. The sheet rate of the rotary press really makes it a much simpler job. Even more so if they had a two color rotary press which there's a bit of evidence for.

But there is also very solid evidence that some were printed on a flatbed press.

That would indicate to me that T206 production probably happened at both ALC and Brett litho. (And possibly other places)

It's all going to take some thinking and looking up stuff to sort out.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

Pats work on the scratches has been amazing. especially doing it with actual cards instead of just scans. I'd been working off saved scans for a while but stopped when I realized Pat had about twice as many cards as I had scans. (And all put together in less time too!)

I still think the short partial scratch on this sheet actually belongs to one side, probably the right. that would make a sheet 24 cards wide with an uneven distribution of subjects.

The group of new information that's come together beginning with looking into the T220 silver sheets will change how we see things. The known track width at ALC is not necessarily material considering Brett Litho printing millions of cards for other ATC sets.
Having done some quick math before, even Scot Rs low estimate for T206 production would have meant nearly constant printing more likely on multiple flatbed presses. The sheet rate of the rotary press really makes it a much simpler job. Even more so if they had a two color rotary press which there's a bit of evidence for.

But there is also very solid evidence that some were printed on a flatbed press.

That would indicate to me that T206 production probably happened at both ALC and Brett litho. (And possibly other places)

It's all going to take some thinking and looking up stuff to sort out.

Would the T206's and other cards have been printed on these Steve?



Here's the patent information on the multi color press that Hett invented and sold to American Lithograph.
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...e/US637603.pdf

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Would the T206's and other cards have been printed on these Steve?



Here's the patent information on the multi color press that Hett invented and sold to American Lithograph.
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...e/US637603.pdf

I believe that some were. Most of the missing color cards are missing two colors. And a lot of cards show pairs of colors in registration with each other but not other colors.

The cards with the nail mark on the other hand are almost for sure a product of a flatbed press, as the nail would have been in the impression cylinder, and there's no reason a press with metal rollers would have a nail.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by steve B

That would indicate to me that T206 production probably happened at both ALC and Brett litho. (And possibly other places)

I'm wondering if Brett did the fronts and American Litho the backs. I found out a little while ago from a reliable source that Topps printed their backs first then sent them to another printer to run the fronts. Could this have happened with the ATC sets?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I'm wondering if Brett did the fronts and American Litho the backs. I found out a little while ago from a reliable source that Topps printed their backs first then sent them to another printer to run the fronts. Could this have happened with the ATC sets?

I'm not sure if this is what your saying Dave but the T206 fronts were definitely printed first not the backs.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I'm wondering if Brett did the fronts and American Litho the backs. I found out a little while ago from a reliable source that Topps printed their backs first then sent them to another printer to run the fronts. Could this have happened with the ATC sets?

It's possible, but I'm trying to think why they would.
If Brett was involved, it was probably because they had higher speed equipment. It doesn't make much sense to print on high speed equipment, then ship the stuff somewhere else that had slower equipment to finish it.

The Topps thing is puzzling too. Assuming it was done in the junkwax era, it would require shipping massive amounts of sheets. There are noticeable differences within many years going back into the 60's, and especially different inks.

[atx840]

Pat are you thinking early sheets did not have a 50/50 split with 17 subjects on the top and 17 subjects on the lower half? We have seen a few of the 649 subjects with different subject names on top. Good example is Jamie's Lake/Pastorius card.

[Luke]

This is awesome Pat. Thanks for posting it.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by atx840

Pat are you thinking early sheets did not have a 50/50 split with 17 subjects on the top and 17 subjects on the lower half? We have seen a few of the 649 subjects with different subject names on top. Good example is Jamie's Lake/Pastorius card.

Chris, from the two name and vertical miscuts I knew there were at least two vertical subjects on the 150 back sheets when I first started doing the research on the plate scratches and I actually expected to see that when I started trying to piece them together but as the sheets started to come together I realized that wasn't the case and that they were printed with the same vertical subject all the way up the sheet. I can't say exactly how many plate scratch cards I've seen but it's in the thousands at one point I owned over 500 myself and while I've seen two name plate scratch cards I've never seen one with two different names and from the size of the plate scratch sheets if there was another section on top of one of the plate scratch sheet the size of that sheet would be massive.

Here's how I feel the sheets were printed as far as vertical subjects for each series.

150 backs - a mix of 2 vertical subjects and 1 vertical subjects with a higher % of 1 vertical subject.

350 backs - likely all 2 vertical subjects

350/460 backs - likely all 1 vertical subject

460 backs - likely all 1 vertical subject


Here's a Powell with a plate scratch that SGC put in the holder upside down. I wish it was an upside down back but it's a name at top.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Pat R]

I'm adding this here from the other thread. This new Old Mill Ad is enlightening at least to me I always thought the Old Mill brand was Older but the T206's
were a promotion in them as a new brand.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Bumping this thread because I found another Old Mill ad/newspaper clip to go along with the first ad I found and I think it adds credence to the pages in the ATC Ledger.

Here's the Ad From a July 30th 1909 Charlotte NC newspaper

[IMG][/IMG]

These dates line up perfectly with an Old Mill page in the ATC ledger.

[IMG][/IMG]

The top of the page is missing but I was pretty sure it was about the Southern League players and now I think we can say it is for certain because it lines up perfectly with the Old Mill Ad and newspaper clip.

We now know that they packed and shipped the Old Mills with the Southern League subjects on August 7 1909 but we can't be sure when they started printing them but it was probably in June or July 1909.

Below that it says began packing Nat'l player like those in Piedmonts packing Jan 8 1910 shipping Jan 9 1910 so the printing for the Old Mill Major League subjects probably started in November or December 1909.

and under that it states began one Nat'l and 1 Southern League picture
began packing 3/15/1910 shipping 3/17/1910
I think this is when they switched over and the group 1 150/350 subjects with the Piedmont 350 backs were inserted in the packs. If that's the case then the
printing of the Group 1 subjects with Piedmont 350 backs probably began in January or February 1910.

It also states that they discontinued packing the Old Mills on 12-10-1910 so that must be when the packing of the 460 only Old Mill major League subjects ended.
This is probably when they started packing the T210's.

[IMG][/IMG]

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by G1911

They do seem to have printed cards on much, much larger sheets for at least some sets in the ATC 1909-1912 project. Is our proof all T206's were done on 19 inch sheets really definitive?

Here are some examples....you do the math......

150-only Series

American Lithographic introduced the T206 set during the Spring of 1909 by printing these 12 cards then shipped them to T-Factory's____





Southern Leaguers....48 subjects....(PIEDMONT 350 printed and issued 1910)



Exclusive 12....printed and issued circa late 1910 - 1911)


.. v ................................ 19" x 24" standard size sheet ...................................v

.... Simulated sheet of the T206 "Exclusive 12" subjects in the 460-only series




T205 Minor Leaguers (12 subjects)......printed and issued late 1911







TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here are some examples....you do the math......

A multiple of 12 certainly makes sense for part of T206. But what is the evidence it is 12 and not 24, or some other figure, and that was consistent the entire year and a half of production? We've recently found a sheet from another ATC set of the period that appears to measure over 50 inches across. Perhaps they were only 19 inches wide, but I don't think I've seen evidence that supports this as a conclusion over one possibility of many. Happy to stand corrected.

[chriskim]

WOW.. very nice detective works here. Have you also look into the Hindu ledger page that was mentioned in this Cycle ledger page video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXkDorcmidU&t=39s

That Hindu ledger page have the right side tore off but not sure anyone actually own the other half, it would definitely help identify the actual Hindu shipment date etc.

Keep up the good work team!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by chriskim

WOW.. very nice detective works here. Have you also look into the Hindu ledger page that was mentioned in this Cycle ledger page video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXkDorcmidU&t=39s

That Hindu ledger page have the right side tore off but not sure anyone actually own the other half, it would definitely help identify the actual Hindu shipment date etc.

Keep up the good work team!

I've never seen the other piece of the Hindu page there is a piece of one of the Sweet Caporal pages that was for the packing and shipping of the Sweet Caporals with separate packing and shipping instructions for Philadelphia.

ATC Phila.jpg

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

You say "34-card" sheet....and I say "36-card" sheet. I shall repeat.

American Lithograph's small size printing presses had 19-inch track widths, which were sufficiently wide to print 12 cards across the sheet....hence, 36, 48, 72, 96 card sheets.
Therefore, such a sheet with 34 different subjects will have 2 double-prints included to fill-out that sheet. In the SWEET CAP 150 #649 case, my guess is that Johnson & Matty
were double-printed. Just like when TOPPS Hi# sheet (97 different subjects) had Mantle, Robinson, and Thomson double-printed to fill out their 100-card sheet.

In the Southern League case, it's anyone's guess which two players were double-printed. As a teenager, I worked in a Print Shop and I'm very familiar with printing practices.


Come-on Pat, you're nit-picking again..... "I think there were 156 subjects that were printed with 150 back "

I stated.... [B]"There are 155 different subjects"....that does not include the MAGIE error card.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

You continue to state this despite substantial visual proof that not all (if any)T206 sheets were printed using a 19 inch press.

I've posted this before, one of the plate scratch sheets has three scratches on it one is a continuous scratch that goes all the way across the sheet and the other two scratches are partial scratches. All three scratches connect to the same subject.

Here's what that sheet looks like on paper
[IMG][/IMG]


All of the subjects on this sheet are Hindu/SC150/649 subjects

Here's what the front of that sheet looks like
0 Sheet 1B.jpg

On this sheet Goode is next to Sheckard here's the actual scans of those two cards with their scratches
[IMG][/IMG]

Here's a Miscut SC150/30 Sheckard that shows Goode was definitely next to him on a sheet.
[IMG][/IMG]

There are several other plate scratch sheets that show a press larger than 19 inches was used in the T206 printing.