Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[cincyredlegs]

I don't buy anything from Rick because of two things......one being the evidence provided from the boards here.

Second, I had a friend that consigned big dollars with Rick. He shilled his own auctions. I know this for a fact because we discussed it. I told him this WAS not right and that if got caught, he would be screwed (he did and lost face with people who thought he was a good guy). Anyway, when I said, "if Rick finds out, he will not let you consign with him." His reply to me was "Dude, he knows shilling goes on....all the FK'R cares about is a sale."

I could go on about the examples I know about but will stop there. I agree that shilling is wrong and illegal. If I am willing to spend $100 for a card but can get it for $40 but am shilled to $100. I am out $60. That is complete BS and not right.

Mark

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I disagree. I might be getting shilled with the sellers I buy from, but I don't think so. You are doing business with someone you KNOW shills.

But my point is if eBay knows that probstein shills and does nothing about it, isn't eBay just as crooked? And if you turn a blind eye away from probstein, but not eBay....you're still supporting a crooked business...right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

Shilling might as well be legal and accepted as part of the dynamics of an auction. After all, there is a risk, reward factor to the person who shills, and anyone can artificially increase an auction price if they have the guts to do it.

Except it isn't, and not everyone does.

I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by cincyredlegs

I don't buy anything from Rick because of two things......one being the evidence provided from the boards here.

Second, I had a friend that consigned big dollars with Rick. He shilled his own auctions. I know this for a fact because we discussed it. I told him this WAS not right and that if got caught, he would be screwed (he did and lost face with people who thought he was a good guy). Anyway, when I said, "if Rick finds out, he will not let you consign with him." His reply to me was "Dude, he knows shilling goes on....all the FK'R cares about is a sale."

I could go on about the examples I know about but will stop there. I agree that shilling is wrong and illegal. If I am willing to spend $100 for a card but can get it for $40 but am shilled to $100. I am out $60. That is complete BS and not right.

Mark

True statement. It is set up for shilling. More money all round. Though he is a ebay mega seller... I stay away. Very corrupt operation from the get go.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Except it isn't, and not everyone does.

I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?

The last honest man left standing.

[SAllen2556]

"I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?"

No. What I'm saying is artificially inflating an auction can be done by someone other than the buyer or seller and you might never know it happened. And it wouldn't be strictly defined by the law as shilling, but the effect would be the same to the buyer of the card.

I could bid on your auctions just to jack up the prices of your cards which I also happen to be selling at the moment for the benefit of the my own cards. How would you ever know? I just think it's a slippery slope and something that can't possibly be enforced. The lure of the mighty dollar will always win.

[Runscott]

Peter, it might seem like I'm saying that, but I'm not. I think MOST ebay sellers run their auctions EXACTLY like I do. I disagree with the apologists' view that 'Everyone is probably doing it'. The problem is that the few who are certainly doing it, represent a massive amount of the card sales on ebay, so volume-wise it's a worse problem than 'a few sellers are cheating'.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah most card doctors probably have immunity by now anyhow.

Most shill bidders have statutes of limitations which have passed too.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

"I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?"

No. What I'm saying is artificially inflating an auction can be done by someone other than the buyer or seller and you might never know it happened. And it wouldn't be strictly defined by the law as shilling, but the effect would be the same to the buyer of the card.

I could bid on your auctions just to jack up the prices of your cards which I also happen to be selling at the moment for the benefit of the my own cards. How would you ever know? I just think it's a slippery slope and something that can't possibly be enforced. The lure of the mighty dollar will always win.

That is an interesting argument, but it isn't shilling and isn't even vaguely on a slippery slope. If you aren't a friend of the seller and you have every intention of paying for the item, it is exactly what you just said it was: a collector putting a bid in to protect his investments.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

"I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?"

No. What I'm saying is artificially inflating an auction can be done by someone other than the buyer or seller and you might never know it happened. And it wouldn't be strictly defined by the law as shilling, but the effect would be the same to the buyer of the card.

I could bid on your auctions just to jack up the prices of your cards which I also happen to be selling at the moment for the benefit of the my own cards. How would you ever know? I just think it's a slippery slope and something that can't possibly be enforced. The lure of the mighty dollar will always win.

But if you bid on my auctions just to jack up the price, you run the risk of actually winning the auction, in which case I'd expect you to pay.

I understand what you're saying that an auction price isn't necessarily the true value of an item, but I think you'd have to agree that the scenario you present is far different than if I run up my own auction, or if I let my wife/kid/friend do it for me.

Ken

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Peter, it might seem like I'm saying that, but I'm not. I think MOST ebay sellers run their auctions EXACTLY like I do. I disagree with the apologists' view that 'Everyone is probably doing it'. The problem is that the few who are certainly doing it, represent a massive amount of the card sales on ebay, so volume-wise it's a worse problem than 'a few sellers are cheating'.

Scott just teasing, I agree with you. I am naïve enough to think most people still have integrity. But a lot don't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Most shill bidders have statutes of limitations which have passed too.

Maybe there's hope for cleaning up memorabilia, because I don't see it happening for cards.

[drcy]

I think collectors willing to readily buy from sellers they know act unethically and perhaps even break the law don't realize the significance of provenance as it relates to value-- especially over the long term. If it turns out the seller you procured many of your cards is shown to have knowingly sold altered cards, it will effect the resale value of your collection. Whether or not your high grade cards were, buyers will wonder if they were also altered. Many collectors simply won't be willing to touch your high graded cards or their skepticism will at least be reflected in their bidding when they found where you got them.

Many game used collectors have learned the lesson of how the value of LOAs sand items can drop after the sellers are sentenced for forgery and related law breaking, and how it can taint in the minds of buyers legitimate items obtained from the seller. And there's no reason card collectors purchasing from sellers they know act unethically and/or break the law can't learn a similar lesson.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[Rollingstone206]

...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

I think collectors willing to readily buy from sellers they know act unethically and perhaps even break the law don't realize the significance of provenance as it relates to value-- especially over the long term. If it turns out the seller you procured many of your cards is shown to have knowingly sold altered cards, it will effect the resale value of your collection. Whether or not your high grade cards were, buyers will wonder if they were also altered. Many collectors simply won't be willing to touch your high graded cards or their skepticism will at least be reflected in their bidding when they found where you got them.

Many game used collectors have learned the lesson of how the value of LOAs sand items can drop after the sellers are sentenced for forgery and related law breaking, and how it can taint in the minds of buyers legitimate items obtained from the seller. And there's no reason card collectors purchasing from sellers they know act unethically and/or break the law can't learn a similar lesson.

In my opinion, very few people care if cards are altered, as long as they are in holders. Oh they might pay lip service to it, but they are more than happy to turn a blind eye.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by lancemountain

...the only recourse left would be to leave appropriate feedback, right?

Well the last kick in the teeth was all the negatives have been removed.

Ter.ry Lew.is

A tip of the hat to the OP for clearly stating why he is POed.

Rick Probstein apparently made this feedback vanish, thereby adding to the eBay sham that is the feedback system.

Best regards,

Eric

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Peter, it might seem like I'm saying that, but I'm not. I think MOST ebay sellers run their auctions EXACTLY like I do. I disagree with the apologists' view that 'Everyone is probably doing it'. The problem is that the few who are certainly doing it, represent a massive amount of the card sales on ebay, so volume-wise it's a worse problem than 'a few sellers are cheating'.

+1


Everyone is most certainly NOT probably doing it. Judge individual sellers on Ebay on their own merits, not the entirety of Ebay as a single juggernaut.

It's like saying Mastro is crooked, Mastro is an auction house..........therefore, all auction houses are crooked.

[Exhibitman]

Much of what I am reading in this thread is either naive or appallingly ignorant. The one salient fact on shilling is this: shilling an auction is illegal. It is the e-quivalent of mugging the buyer. End of debate over its legitimacy: as a matter of law that it is never OK.

Shilling is not placing a reserve on an item. Placing a reserve on an item is a legitimate option on eBay but many bidders don't like to see that little "reserve not met" line on the listing, so many sellers balk at using them.

Dress it up all you like but shilling is a fraud on the buyer, who is lulled into believing that the auction started at the opening price and was honestly bid by legitimate bidders to a price one bid increment below the winning price, when it was not.

Shilling corrupts the database of value research. VCP and every price report of actual results is skewed by the overblown and/or fake results reported on shilled auctions.

As for Probstein bidders who bid only with him, how realistic does that seem? I don't know of any active card buyer who bids only with one eBay seller. Does anyone here confine their bidding to one seller? If so, let's hear it.

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

But if you bid on my auctions just to jack up the price, you run the risk of actually winning the auction, in which case I'd expect you to pay.

I understand what you're saying that an auction price isn't necessarily the true value of an item, but I think you'd have to agree that the scenario you present is far different than if I run up my own auction, or if I let my wife/kid/friend do it for me.

Ken

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.

Nah man, what you're describing is basically "bidding". There's a world of difference between somebody bidding on a card because it's going too cheap, and intend to pay for it if they were to win (might as well just outlaw auctions right now, if that's the case)...............then a dealer shilling up his own auction.

A huge difference!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.

I basically agree...if you prepared to have to pay 20% if you 'win' your own card I really think all of this is a non issue..

I guess if an auction house says 'shilling is allowed but the bidder who wins will have to pay 20%'..i would be confortable bidding knowing that if the owner of the card was really bidding on his own card he was willing to risk 20% on top of his bid if he 'wins' the card...that to me is a legitimate bid for him to take the risk.


Standard language on most AH contracts : Neither you or nor anyone on your behalf acting as your agent may bid on Memoribilia you have tendered to us. If you violate this provision of the Agreement, and you have the highest bid on an item or lot, you will pay us the commission and Buyers Premium on the item or lot upon which you are the highest bidder. There are no exceptions to this provision"

So even though they forbid it..they still allow it to go through if you pay the bp....I don't see a problem with that...that's shilling ..the seller wiling to eat 20%...then that item was going way to low for him....if seller thinks the item is about to sell 10% under market you think he will want to pay 20% to preserve that? no way..he will let it go..

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As for Probstein bidders who bid only with him, how realistic does that seem? I don't know of any active card buyer who bids only with one eBay seller. Does anyone here confine their bidding to one seller? If so, let's hear it.

Adam, I gave a real example in a previous post. I purchased very little, in terms of cards, this year when compared to previous years. At most 2-3 items a month through eBay and probably 75% of those items were BIN or BO. Later in the year I changed my focus and began buying more. Around October/November I noticed and bid on several (7-9) cards in the same week with Probstein. I won 3-4 and was the underbidder on the rest. Had the winners of the other cards checked the bid history I could almost guarantee my bid history with Probstein would have 90%+ because eBay only tracks bid history for 30 days and because of how little I've bid on in the recent past. What should a seller like Probstein, who already offers a 14 no hassles return policy, do if one of the other winners saw my bid history and though he/she was shilled? Give them all a partial refund? For every person here who makes dozens of bids a day on objects of their hobby there are hundreds to thousands who pick of cards in prolonged intervals, usually multiple purchases at once when funds have been saved.

Nobody disagreeing with the main points of this thread and countless others like it believe shilling is acceptable, just that it's a fact of the system. Even if Probstein, PWCC, or whomever else took every feasible step to try and stop it any a-h@le can find a way to consign and shill a card anonymously. I've never done it, but I'd imagine it can't be that freaking difficult. Some people here call that idealism silly. I call it common sense, but whatever.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Nah man, what you're describing is basically "bidding". There's a world of difference between somebody bidding on a card because it's going too cheap, and intend to pay for it if they were to win (might as well just outlaw auctions right now, if that's the case)...............then a dealer shilling up his own auction.

A huge difference!

Dave - surely you understand that if we can't get into the mind of a complete stranger to identify his motives for bidding on an item, then all shilling should be legal?

[VoodooChild]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Shilling corrupts the database of value research. VCP and every price report of actual results is skewed by the overblown and/or fake results reported on shilled auctions.

So how/where am I supposed to buy cards for prices that are not influenced by ebay shill bidding? Can we as a card collecting community file a class action lawsuit against ebay for turning a blind-eye? What is the solution? Or is this just something we have to live with in this digital auction world?

I can tell you that shilling is happening for a lot more than sports card/collectible ebay auctions. My wife wanted to buy a roll of fabric. She put in a max bid an lost at auction close. She said "I can't believe there's somebody else in this world who wanted that ugly fabric". A couple days later, she said that same fabric is listed as an auction by the same seller. We checked the previous auction she lost...the winner had 90% bidding history with the seller and tons of retractions.

I'm not saying that I condone it, but what are we supposed to do when the market value of the cards we want are set by shilled ebay auctions? We can boycott certain ebay sellers and ebay itself, but what about respected auction houses and the BST here? Aren't the "market value" prices we pay there also determined by shilled sales?

[nolemmings]

I'm not saying that I condone it, but what are we supposed to do when the market value of the cards we want are set by shilled ebay auctions? We can boycott certain ebay sellers and ebay itself, but what about respected auction houses and the BST here? Aren't the "market value" prices we pay there also determined by shilled sales?

Of course not Jason. Stop being appallingly ignorant.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Nobody disagreeing with the main points of this thread and countless others like it believe shilling is acceptable.

Of course they are. If they are contributing to the problem by bidding on items sold by sellers such as the ones described here, then they are saying that shilling is acceptable.

Some of the logic in this thread is flabbergasting. To the guy who says if we are not going to patronize known shillers, we should not patronize ebay: If you have a broken arm, do you want your doctor to put you down, or would you rather he fixed your arm?

Okay, this has gotten silly - you guys carry on.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Of course not Jason. Stop being appallingly ignorant.

Thank you, Todd. That gave me my first outward laugh of the day, and I needed it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Adam, I gave a real example in a previous post. I purchased very little, in terms of cards, this year when compared to previous years. At most 2-3 items a month through eBay and probably 75% of those items were BIN or BO. Later in the year I changed my focus and began buying more. Around October/November I noticed and bid on several (7-9) cards in the same week with Probstein. I won 3-4 and was the underbidder on the rest. Had the winners of the other cards checked the bid history I could almost guarantee my bid history with Probstein would have 90%+ because eBay only tracks bid history for 30 days and because of how little I've bid on in the recent past. What should a seller like Probstein, who already offers a 14 no hassles return policy, do if one of the other winners saw my bid history and though he/she was shilled? Give them all a partial refund? For every person here who makes dozens of bids a day on objects of their hobby there are hundreds to thousands who pick of cards in prolonged intervals, usually multiple purchases at once when funds have been saved.

Nobody disagreeing with the main points of this thread and countless others like it believe shilling is acceptable, just that it's a fact of the system. Even if Probstein, PWCC, or whomever else took every feasible step to try and stop it any a-h@le can find a way to consign and shill a card anonymously. I've never done it, but I'd imagine it can't be that freaking difficult. Some people here call that idealism silly. I call it common sense, but whatever.

Your bid history might be 100% with 1 seller but is only a few bids.

You also have to look at the sellers feedback total.
This bidder only has 50 feedback on ebay total.
Put in 788 bids in 1 month with 88% with 1 seller. With that many bids they sure don't win much with the 1 bidder most of their bids are with. Not saying this is a shilling account but I don't buy from this seller because they have several bidders like this in their auctions.

Bidder Information
Bidder: j***m( 50Feedback score is 50 to 99)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
Removed to protect sellers ID
Bids on this item: 10

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 788
Items bid on: 133
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 88% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 3

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by VoodooChild

I'm not saying that I condone it, but what are we supposed to do when the market value of the cards we want are set by shilled ebay auctions? We can boycott certain ebay sellers and ebay itself, but what about respected auction houses and the BST here? Aren't the "market value" prices we pay there also determined by shilled sales?

It isn't easy to fix this mess, no one said we could wave a magic wand and make it so. However, a good start is to acknowledge the problem and refuse to be part of it rather than just throwing up your hands and surrendering. I used to think that I was smart enough to simply snipe my price and that would be OK, but since reading more about what happened with Mastro and what is happening on eBay I realized that it is causing real damage. When I see a probstein auction now I don't bid. Simple enough. If enough people refuse to patronize probstein auctions, they will close. It all starts with personal accountability.

The way people use 'market price' bugs me. People act like there is an entity called 'market' who sets a price like a giant grocery clerk with a tagging gun, and then we have to abide by Market's price on the tag. That is just magical thinking. A card is worth whatever a willing buyer and seller are willing to transact for it at a given time, and that number is subject to indefinite variables that are never quite the same, whether it is someone filling out a set, someone with a big consignment offset available, etc. The 'market price' construct bothers me because if the last sale on the card was $100 but there are no cards available for $100, then the market price for the card isn't $100.

My comment on price distortions dovetails with the market price construct issue: because people insist on creating a 'market price' to rely on, the inflated sales results become the raw data from which people who like to follow the herd will distill their 'market price'. I have been assembling data on boxing cards for my guides for over a decade. I gather data from various sources: eBay, auctioneers, private sales I become aware of, etc. If some of those reported outcomes are skewed by illegal activities like shilling then I end up reporting inaccurate information, and the people who rely on that data to create their price points will be relying on unrealistic data. Uncertainty kills commerce. Unreliable price data generates uncertainty in the sense that collectors see a card selling for $100 and wonder why they can't sell theirs for $90, or they wonder why even though no one has stepped up to pay $90 for the card no seller will take $75 for it.

I have decided that until the python passes the puppy, so to speak--until I feel realistic steps have been taken to stem the tide of shilling and market manipulation--I am not going to offer price research again.

[CMIZ5290]

This is just incredible being discussed yet again in a lengthy thread. I wish someone would go back to the archives and post these same type of complaints. I will say it again, if Probstein is guilty of obvious, and consistant bid shilling, Why in Hell can't Ebay be involved in it? Money is one thing, but if they are attacked publicly and legally, how can they not be held accountable? Before any other bullshit posts, please someone answer this....

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This is just incredible being discussed yet again in a lengthy thread. I wish someone would go back to the archives and post these same type of complaints. I will say it again, if Probstein is guilty of obvious, and consistant bid shilling, Why in Hell can't Ebay be involved in it? Money is one thing, but if they are attacked publicly and legally, how can they not be held accountable? Before any other bullshit posts, please someone answer this....

They are attacked publicly, but no one has the money to attack them legally.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This is just incredible being discussed yet again in a lengthy thread. I wish someone would go back to the archives and post these same type of complaints. I will say it again, if Probstein is guilty of obvious, and consistant bid shilling, Why in Hell can't Ebay be involved in it? Money is one thing, but if they are attacked publicly and legally, how can they not be held accountable? Before any other bullshit posts, please someone answer this....

Most likely because Probstein is not doing any actual shilling, his consignors are. Ebay does not have Probsteins consignors lists.

It's a grey area, that complicates what many see as a black & white issue.

It's that grey area that probably allows companies like Coach's Corner to still exist. Blame it on the consignors/authenticators/peoples opinions.

At least Probstein sells actual tangible items and not worthless pieces of scrap paper, uniforms and baseballs grafitti'd over with nonsense.

It is a little ironic, that this thread blew up based on a shill accusation that was probably not a shill at all..........when there seems to be so many better examples out there to go by.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This is just incredible being discussed yet again in a lengthy thread. I wish someone would go back to the archives and post these same type of complaints. I will say it again, if Probstein is guilty of obvious, and consistant bid shilling, Why in Hell can't Ebay be involved in it? Money is one thing, but if they are attacked publicly and legally, how can they not be held accountable? Before any other bullshit posts, please someone answer this....

Careful Kevin - you could be accused of violating your own request

Did you read the very first post in the thread - it gives you a detailed description of ebay's involvement.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Careful Kevin - you could be accused of violating your own request

Did you read the very first post in the thread - it gives you a detailed description of ebay's involvement.

How about a big fat letter from an attorney?? Where's Jeff?

[CMIZ5290]

Scott- Not sure where you're going, but I have backed Rick on a few situations...My complaint is why can't anything be done with Ebay legally? That's all I'm saying...

[Runscott]

Kevin, I'm exasperated with ebay, and as soon as I can make my living without them, I'm out of there. Eventually ebay will be forced to clean up. It used to be you could get away with anything in the sports card and memorabilia hobby - that is slowly changing (see threads on Mastro/Legendary, Operation Bullpen, etc.). Coaches Corner will fall some day and people will go to jail. Ebay may still be a ways off, but it will happen - I wouldn't be surprised to see a sting that sends many of the big sellers, and a few ebay management personnel, off to prison.

Meanwhile, I avoid corrupt sellers just like I avoid buying electronics out of the backs of vans in parking lots. Not much, but you have to start somewhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scott what's your prognosis for card doctors?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Kevin, I'm exasperated with ebay, and as soon as I can make my living without them, I'm out of there. Eventually ebay will be forced to clean up. It used to be you could get away with anything in the sports card and memorabilia hobby - that is slowly changing (see threads on Mastro/Legendary, Operation Bullpen, etc.). Coaches Corner will fall some day and people will go to jail. Ebay may still be a ways off, but it will happen - I wouldn't be surprised to see a sting that sends many of the big sellers, and a few ebay management personnel, off to prison.

Meanwhile, I avoid corrupt sellers just like I avoid buying electronics out of the backs of vans in parking lots. Not much, but you have to start somewhere.

Well said...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Scott- Not sure where you're going, but I have backed Rick on a few situations...My complaint is why can't anything be done with Ebay legally? That's all I'm saying...

Shilling is illegal. Saying "contact ebay and they will see if any shilling is going on" is bullshit, especially when you know ebay is going to do anything they can to keep getting their percentage of your sales. Like I said, some of the big sellers will do jail time eventually, and claiming they didn't know anything was going on is not going to fly. I guarantee you the FBI has techies who can connect the dots.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott what's your prognosis for card doctors?

Not usually a TLA user, but LOL. Do you remember the raw E95 Cobb that I had? I have 'after' scans of it in PSA, GAI and SGC holders. No one here supported me on that one - not a single person. So I would have to say the prognosis (for them personally) is still pretty good.

Edited to add: the raw E95 Cobb was used as a card doctor test subject, and passed all three grading companies (color added to background, paper tear on back glued back together, stain removal, etc.)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Not usually a TLA user, but LOL. Do you remember the raw E95 Cobb that I had? I have 'after' scans of it in PSA, GAI and SGC holders. No one here supported me on that one - not a single person. So I would have to say the prognosis (for them personally) is still pretty good.

Edited to add: the raw E95 Cobb was used as a card doctor test subject, and passed all three grading companies (color added to background, paper tear on back glued back together, stain removal, etc.)

See no evil, hear no evil. As long as they look pretty in their slabs and they count on the registry.

[Runscott]

It's true. For those who question whether or not most of the high-grade T206's have been trimmed....please don't make me laugh. Trimming a card is child's play.

[tschock]

These days.... ebay seems nothing more than craigslist on PEDs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It's true. For those who question whether or not most of the high-grade T206's have been trimmed....please don't make me laugh. Trimming a card is child's play.

Well maybe but it's also big business.

[lancemountain]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It is a little ironic, that this thread blew up based on a shill accusation that was probably not a shill at all..........when there seems to be so many better examples out there to go by.

There are better examples but that does not mean this was not most certainly shilling. These cards were certainly shilled

[Qcards]

I read these threads where Rick is accused of shilling and I don’t really get it.

I am a regular consignor to Rick. I send him my stuff, he scans it, lists it and sends me the funds, minus his fee, after the auction is over.

My items generally go for market value and I am happy with his services.

If you look at the amount of items he is listing and closing every day, he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Qcards

I read these threads where Rick is accused of shilling and I don’t really get it.

I am a regular consignor to Rick. I send him my stuff, he scans it, lists it and sends me the funds, minus his fee, after the auction is over.

My items generally go for market value and I am happy with his services.

If you look at the amount of items he is listing and closing every day, he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

How about I offer Rick Probstein the opportunity to take a polygraph test and answer a few questions about fraud? If he passes he gets $100,000. If the results show that he has engaged in fraud he pays me $20,000. Since he hasn't done anything wrong this should be an easy pay day, right? Maybe you can get in on the bet?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Qcards

he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

I said I was done with this thread, but I need to address this statement because it keeps getting repeated over and over by multiple individuals.

Nobody is asking Rick to monitor his auctions. We're asking that he do something about those who are caught red handed shilling their own auctions (like blocking consignors). Is that really asking too much or am I being unreasonable?

[Peter_Spaeth]

God forbid a business owner monitor his own business to make sure it is operating honestly. Yeah that is expecting WAY too much.