Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[lancemountain]

I purchased 7 cards from Probstein on the 10th of December. They were all from a modern set and clearly from the same consigner as they all were the same player, same set and very low serial numbered.


I won all 7, two for a very low price and the other 5 for about market average. I paid not thinking too much about it. Fair play-service and shipping was quick and Probstein had delivered my cards in a few short days. It needed a signature and was returned to my main HUB and it took a sweek for me to retrieve the package. Cards were packed well and were in good shape.

As I was entering my new cards into spreadsheets (date acquired, price paid, ect...I do enjoy this part) I poked through and low and behold I was shilled. The bidder o***l with 11 feedback. This person has 100% bidding activity with the seller. Every bid was on these cards within the last few minutes.

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 10
Items bid on: 5
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 100%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 4 Seller 1 <1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 3 Seller 1 <1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 2 Seller 1 <1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 2 Seller 1 <1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 <1h

So I contact Probstein and explained in a well thought out and polite email that these cards were clearly shilled. I was hopeful that he had not paid the consigner the fees yet and we could reach an agreement. He replied with this:

hi, best thing it to contact ebay trust and safety and let them determine if anything happened
thanks
rick

He knew darn well I would run into a big, fat wall.

I called them, I emailed them, I reported the auctions, I waited on hold with them, I spoke with eBay employees that I could literally just barely understand a word they were saying. eBay customer service is basically useless and so I resigned myself to that there would be no recourse.

Well the only recourse left would be to leave appropriate feedback, right?

Well the last kick in the teeth was all the negatives have been removed.


Probstein makes eBay a lot of money...as long as he says he's against shilling it's good enough for them. FWIW I was shilled for $62.00

Ter.ry Lew.is

[ullmandds]

Sorry to hear you fell victim to Probsteins well documented shilling...I'd say a $62 lesson could have been much worse!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by lancemountain

I purchased 7 cards from Probstein on the 10th of December. They were all from a modern set and clearly from the same consigner as they all were the same player, same set and very low serial numbered.


I won all 7, two for a very low price and the other 5 for about market average. I paid not thinking too much about it. Fair play-service and shipping was quick and Probstein had delivered my cards in a few short days. It needed a signature and was returned to my main HUB and it took a sweek for me to retrieve the package. Cards were packed well and were in good shape.

As I was entering my new cards into spreadsheets (date acquired, price paid, ect...I do enjoy this part) I poked through and low and behold I was shilled. The bidder o***l with 11 feedback. This person has 100% bidding activity with the seller. Every bid was on these cards within the last few minutes.



So I contact Probstein and explained in a well thought out and polite email that these cards were clearly shilled. I was hopeful that he had not paid the consigner the fees yet and we could reach an agreement. He replied with this:



He knew darn well I would run into a big, fat wall.

I called them, I emailed them, I reported the auctions, I waited on hold with them, I spoke with eBay employees that I could literally just barely understand a word they were saying. eBay customer service is basically useless and so I resigned myself to that there would be no recourse.

Well the only recourse left would be to leave appropriate feedback, right?

Well the last kick in the teeth was all the negatives have been removed.


Probstein makes eBay a lot of money...as long as he says he's against shilling it's good enough for them. FWIW I was shilled for $62.00

With all the problems associated with Problemstien I am at the point that I blame the problem 100% on anybody stupid enough to bid on his auctions. JMHO

[lancemountain]

Originally Posted by bnorth

With all the problems associated with Problemstien I am at the point that I blame the problem 100% on anybody stupid enough to bid on his auctions. JMHO

I agree with you 100%

I was unaware of how institutional it really was and that is why I have posted this thread. I will never bid on a Probstein card ever again

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

With all the problems associated with Problemstien I am at the point that I blame the problem 100% on anybody stupid enough to bid on his auctions. JMHO

Ben- Well said my friend. These threads go back to when Moby Dick was a minnow. Hello!, dont bid on his freaking auctions!!

[dclarkraiders]

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay. If I win great. If I lose, I'll get the card from other sellers, sources, etc. I understand your angst but $62.00 is a small price to pay for a lesson learned. Good luck in your future collecting endeavors.

Duane Clark

[drcy]

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay.

To achieve the same result, if you aren't shilled in an auction do you flush a $20 bill down the toilet? Most collectors would prefer to keep the $20 and use it towards purchasing something else. Let's just hope that by 'homework' you don't mean following past shilled auction results.

[lancemountain]

Originally Posted by drcy

Let's just hope that by 'homework' you don't mean following past shilled auction results.

Yup!

Shilling is everyone's problem

[mybuddyinc]

Originally Posted by dclarkraiders

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay. If I win great. If I lose, I'll get the card from other sellers, sources, etc. I understand your angst but $62.00 is a small price to pay for a lesson learned. Good luck in your future collecting endeavors.

Duane Clark

Agree 100%, other than I've only won one of his auction. It was for a lesser known 1921 Zbyszko Exhibit. I was willing to pay $100 for it (tough wrestler), but I knew I would be probably shilled up to that. So I sniped at 50 something and won, happy. If I lost, no big deal, I'd rather wait and even pay a bit more down the line.

Secondly, GREAT for him (sarcastically, of course) for shilling OP out of $62 !!!!! Hope it's worth losing a customer that might potentially spend hundreds in the future !!!!

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by dclarkraiders

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay. If I win great. If I lose, I'll get the card from other sellers, sources, etc. I understand your angst but $62.00 is a small price to pay for a lesson learned. Good luck in your future collecting endeavors.

Duane Clark

+1. Well its nice to get a bargain now and then, most great collections in any field are not built on them. Bid the max you are willing to pay, evaluating as best you can the item's past, present and future potential value, and you will never be cheated.

Best wishes,

Larry

[packs]

I don't understand that logic though. The maximum you're willing to pay isn't the winning bid. You're essentially saying it's no big deal to pay the most you're willing to pay. But to me it is a big deal because I didn't have to pay that much in the first place.

Do you guys use coupons or ever buy things on sale? Or do you insist on paying MSRP for all your purchases?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by bnorth

With all the problems associated with Problemstien I am at the point that I blame the problem 100% on anybody stupid enough to bid on his auctions. JMHO

I would guess that a large percentage of his buyers aren't members of this forum and thus have no idea that there's a problem. I actually threw a bid in on a card last week, didn't get shilled. Got it for less than market value. That happens occasionally.

[BlueDevil89]

Mention that you intend to document the incident and file a complaint report with your state's district attorney's office. ebay will connect you to a manager and you should get some satisfaction then, depending on how your wish to resolve the matter.

[lancemountain]

Originally Posted by BlueDevil89

Mention that you intend to document the incident and file a complaint report with your state's district attorney's office. ebay will connect you to a manager and you should get some satisfaction then, depending on how your wish to resolve the matter.

I would exhaust every avenue to nail this guy, believe me. It's not the $62, it is the principle and I am willing to stand up to this crook.

The problem is I can't get on the phone with someone to make this threat!

[drcy]

"I can assure you, doctor, that I can make things unpleasant for you and your staff, if you have one."-- Kramer

[Runscott]

Thenextlevel - every time you bid in an auction run by a crooked seller, you are saying "shilling is okay".

[Runscott]

That reminds me of today's article on rent increases - renters cry when rent increases to approach market value, but demand a decrease when market value for rentals drops.

[packs]

In my opinion hidden reserves are bogus. If you want to put a reserve on your item, then put a reserve on it. Bidding on your own items to hit some hidden reserve is lame.

I will not bid on some items if there is a reserve. It has nothing to do with what I'm willing to pay. I'm not willing to play that game at all. So if someone has a hidden reserve, that to me is a misrepresentation. Some people call that a lie, others a hidden truth. Either way I don't want to be involved and failing to be upfront about it is not cool in my opinion, regardless of what I'm willing to pay.

[Runscott]

I understand the point that everyone is a criminal, although I disagree with it, but Probstein is anything but a policeman. In any analogy you choose ebay has failed in that role.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I understand the point that everyone is a criminal, although I disagree with it, but Probstein is anything but a policeman. In any analogy you choose ebay has failed in that role.

Probstein is crooked. His auctions are crooked. All the vomitous excuses listed here don't change that.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Probstein is crooked. His auctions are crooked. All the vomitous excuses listed here don't change that.

Is it him, or all ebay consignors? I can't see any consignor doing things any differently than he does. I could be wrong, but what consignor does things differently? Does PWC aggressively fight consignees shilling their consignments?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Is it him, or all ebay consignors? I can't see any consignor doing things any differently than he does. I could be wrong, but what consignor does things differently? Does PWC aggressively fight consignees shilling their consignments?

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

[bbeck]

Probstein is all about the mighty dollar, no matter how small, plain and simple. Pretty sad business model with zero class, built around pure greed and ego. He could care less about shilling, it's all about the money. I came to this realization after an encounter with him after an ebay sale. In the end, he kept the few extra dollars that he was not entitled to. In reality, I actually won, he has to look at himself in the mirror everyday. Huge bummer for Probstein.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

I hear ya, David. I don't think much of probstein for just sitting back in this situation, seems shitty imo. He could at least put on a show for us and act like he somewhat cares...it could save the net54 community multiple threads and hours wasted going over the same stuff that never changes. Appease us, damn it!


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[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

What exactly is "to do something about it"? Provide a partial refund for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks a legitimate snipe bid "shilled" him? He probably already deals with dozens of returns a week due to simple buyer's remorse. Maybe he should wrap his package advertising included with every order with $20 bills as well. Does shilling occur on some of his auctions and with other larger consignment companies? Duh, welcome to reality. There are also people like me. In November I won 3-4 PSA/DNA cards from him. I make on average 2-3 eBay purchases a month with the majority being BIN's. So had you won any of the other 3-4 cards I was the under bidder on my bid % would have likely been very high and look like shilling. It wasn't. It was me bidding on multiple like items with the same seller. How often does that happen with a seller of his volume?

This is nine pages of Probstein is a crook and Probstein knows some of his auctions are shilled but absolutely no one has provided a viable solution for a larger eBay consignment house to implement.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

Do ANY ebay consignors do this?

[4815162342]

If only Grand Slam Bids could've made it...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Bidder Information
Bidder: 0***r( 336Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
1974 Topps #281
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1733
Items bid on: 1709
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 99% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I was about to bid on this auction ..

anything fishy with a 99% bidding history on 1733 total bids?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Bidder Information
Bidder: 0***r( 336Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
1974 Topps #281
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1733
Items bid on: 1709
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 99% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I was about to bid on this auction ..

anything fishy with a 99% bidding history on 1733 total bids?

It depends if it is a Problemstein auction yes. If it is another large seller that has a banner ad on this site no. I don't get it but that is the general consensus.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Bidder Information
Bidder: 0***r( 336Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
1974 Topps #281
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1733
Items bid on: 1709
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 99% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I was about to bid on this auction ..

anything fishy with a 99% bidding history on 1733 total bids?

That's one I'd be concerned with. Not the original post that started this.

It's either a super loyal customer, a bottom level bidder throwing in lowball bids on nearly everything to see if anything sticks and living vicariously through the auctions process (notice hardly any more bids then items bid on), or a shilling consignor setting his own reserve, one bid at a time, on Probsteins auctions.

Only Probstein and the consignor knows if it's the last one, thanks to Ebay's recent trend into "privacy".............but if it is a consignor there's no way Probstein DOESN'T know who it is, based on the large volume of items involved here........it would be hard to claim it's too much work to suss out the consignor.

Looking through a bit of the history it looks like he's a heavy bidder on 1974 Topps hi-grade PSA cards. He has won some auctions and has not pulled any bids. Probstein would know if he's not paying for his auctions.............or if he is and they're from a consignor willing to take a loss to protect his cards, he'd know that to.

[4815162342]

Does eBay not have the ability to data mine auctions to look for evidence of shilling? I would think at the very least they could after the fact if not in realtime. What if the shiller-inflated amount was refunded automatically if shilling was found within X number of days of auction end? That would put a stop to a lot of this.

I know, I know. I'm dreaming.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Does eBay not have the ability to data mine auctions to look for evidence of shilling? I would think at the very least they could after the fact if not in realtime. What if the shiller-inflated amount was refunded automatically if shilling was found within X number of days of auction end? That would put a stop to a lot of this.

I know, I know. I'm dreaming.

Only way that would work is if somehow, Ebay had a list of all of Probsteins consignors and could match up their consignor info with their bidding info.

Bid %'s don't mean a whole lot unless they are also retracting bids, or they are not paying for auctions they win. Those are two things Ebay could easily track or put limitations on, that they don't.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by lancemountain

...the only recourse left would be to leave appropriate feedback, right?

Well the last kick in the teeth was all the negatives have been removed.

Ter.ry Lew.is

A tip of the hat to the OP for clearly stating why he is POed.

Rick Probstein apparently made this feedback vanish, thereby adding to the eBay sham that is the feedback system.

Best regards,

Eric

[jason.1969]

For those not too bothered by shilling, would you support.eBay changing their rules and allowing sellers to bid on their own items? It really is the same thing, only the former is fraudulent while the latter would be transparent.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

For those not too bothered by shilling, would you support.eBay changing their rules and allowing sellers to bid on their own items? It really is the same thing, only the former is fraudulent while the latter would be transparent.

I don't think anyone is "not too bothered" by shilling, I just think we are limited by what we can do about it.


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