What Should A Dealer Do?

[T206Collector]

If this card comes raw to your table at a show and the seller has no idea what he has.

[JustinD]

Sleep well at night and treat the misinformed fairly.

You will hope someone treats you the same if the tables are turned in a different situation.

I used to know a dealer that thought stories of how he ripped people off were impressive...I never bought another thing from him.

[Econteachert205]

I'm not a dealer. As a collector I say it's up to the collector to know what they have. If someone came up to the dealer with this card I as the potential dealer would ask if the collector had a price in mind. If so and it is below the fair market value whatever it is I would buy it. If the collector didn't have a price in mind I would give a price I thought was fair with room to make a profit. It isn't the dealers job to rip someone off. It also isn't their job to give free appraisals to prevent lazy people from being ripped off.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

I'm not a dealer. As a collector I say it's up to the collector to know what they have. If someone came up to the dealer with this card I as the potential dealer would ask if the collector had a price in mind. If so and it is below the fair market value whatever it is I would buy it. If the collector didn't have a price in mind I would give a price I thought was fair with room to make a profit. It isn't the dealers job to rip someone off. It also isn't their job to give free appraisals to prevent lazy people from being ripped off.

I agree with this rationale. Totally different if someone comes to the table and is just fishing for a price with no intention to sell. If you want to know what it is worth, get an appraisal. If you want to sell it, sell it, but either way the collector should get educated

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

If the collector didn't have a price in mind I would give a price I thought was fair with room to make a profit.

There is nothing wrong with that...offering 10 bucks is an class issue in my mind.

A business has overhead, paying a fair price to a seller and keeping the offer low enough to pay overhead and maintain a profit margin is fair.

[conor912]

You forgot the most likely answer:

E. Depends on who's in earshot

[Joshchisox08]

Is that your card? I like it !!!

[travrosty]

The dealer should be fair. A fair deal.

[Exhibitman]

This is no different than finding a rare card on eBay and BINing it for a fraction of its value. The buyer in either case has no obligation to appraise the card and inform the seller of what the card may be worth. The buyer's expertise is his advantage and I think he is free to use it. If the seller wants an appraisal, he can hire an appraiser and then decide what to do. Or research it online. He knows enough to go to a card show, and as rare as those are, he's obviously involved in the hobby.

BTW, the poll is a push-poll: the answers are framed [intentionally or accidentally] with judgments incorporated into them so as to push the respondent to go a certain way. In this case, away from the first response. There is no need to "feign ignorance"; that assumes some sort of ruse is necessary, and since most people do not want to admit to a ruse, they will not choose that option. To get an honest read I would reframe the first choice as "Purchase the card without comment for $100."

[ullmandds]

to me...that card is a POS...it has a hole, is all chewed up...and has a common back. I'd offer like $30 and resell it as I would not want it in my collection!

[Bruinsfan94]

My father worked in a candy shop in the 1970's/1980's. One day a little boy came in after school with a box of cards. My father didn't collect until the 2000's with me before he passed. He loved collecting with me but was not an expert and didn't know what cards the boy offered exactly.He did know the box was worth a lot as they were all big name players ( Gehrig, Ruth, and others). I always guessed they were mostly goudeys from what he said. The boy just wanted some dime candy in exchange.My dad happily took the cards for some candy. After the boy left, he went to the crossing guard outside, and asked who the boy was. He called up the boys mother and returned the cards. Turns out he had taken them from his grandpa who had an extensive collection. I would do the same in this situation. If I couldn't afford to make a fair offer, I would help him find a way to sell it.

[DHogan]

Originally Posted by Bruinsfan94

My father worked in a candy shop in the 1970's/1980's. One day a little boy came in after school with a box of cards. My father didn't collect until the 2000's with me before he passed. He loved collecting with me but was not an expert and didn't know what cards the boy offered exactly.He did know the box was worth a lot as they were all big name players ( Gehrig, Ruth, and others). I always guessed they were mostly goudeys from what he said. The boy just wanted some dime candy in exchange.My dad happily took the cards for some candy. After the boy left, he went to the crossing guard outside, and asked who the boy was. He called up the boys mother and returned the cards. Turns out he had taken them from his grandpa who had an extensive collection. I would do the same in this situation. If I couldn't afford to make a fair offer, I would help him find a way to sell it.

Cool story.

[iowadoc77]

Incidentally, I am with Pete. Not a fan in the slightest of that card

[mrvster]

is part of the missing puzzle of sheet structure.....a mini "work of art" and damn expensive!.....rightfully so.....

I would be interested in this card.....

definitely would let the guy know what he had, then let the games begin

[digdugdig]

How long did the quality control guy keep his job?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by digdugdig

How long did the quality control guy keep his job?

That's a good darn question!

[PolarBear]

Golden Rule.

[mettoy66]

In todays world someone with average intelligence can find out most things on the internet. That being said, I am not a dealer so I don't have an answer.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Golden Rule.

He who has the Gold makes the rules?

[Bored5000]

I an surprised how many people have responded "Feign ignorance and buy the card for under $100."

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by mettoy66

In todays world someone with average intelligence can find out most things on the internet.

This. I’m not sure why it’s a buyer's responsibility to educate the seller.

If you were in the market for a new vehicle and you go down to the local Chevy dealership and pick out a new car, is it the salesman’s responsibility to tell you that the Chevy dealership in the next town over is having their Pre-Labor Day Sale and has the exact same model $2K less, or is it your (the buyer) responsibility to do your homework first?

Or, as a buyer, if you saw the card in a dealer's showcase marked $50, is it the your responsibility to educate the seller?

Whether you are a buyer or seller, it is your responsibility to educate yourself as to what you are buying or selling.

That said, I wouldn't lie to or mislead the buyer or seller. In the example posted here, if I were the dealer, I would ask the buyer what they want for the card. It is their card, isn't it their responsibility to know?

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by mettoy66

In todays world someone with average intelligence can find out most things on the internet. That being said, I am not a dealer so I don't have an answer.

Yes, but one should have a good feel for the source. Trustworthy? Reliable? Motive? There's lots or information and misinformation out there for various reasons. Some of it is just plain wrong.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Great topic.

I've talked about this issues with other collectors many times.

I always love hearing responses from dealers that couch their answers with some leeway to take advantage of the ignorant person.

I've always wanted to have someone walk around shows and see what offers dealers would be made on an expensive card by someone claiming they have no idea if it's worth anything at all.

I'm also sure all the dealers wouldn't mind their if their inevitable low-ball offers to self-admitted, uninformed, non-collectors were posted on the internet.

[rocarroll]

Since the card being presented by the seller is professionally graded then he should be some what educated on cards and values. Not much of a break for the seller IMO. If he presented it raw in a group of others maybe a different story. My point being people buying graded cards or submitting cards to be graded should be more educated as opposed to someone showing up with a shoe box of cards. So let's hear it what did the OP do?

[ibuysportsephemera]

I think that it depends on who the buyer is. Earlier in this thread there was nice story about a candy shop owner and a child. In that case, you would be a complete scum to take advantage of someone who doesn't know about value and also doesn't have the resources to establish value.

If I was approached by an adult with the card in this thread, I would ask what they want for it? I don't think that the dealer has an obligation to educate the person selling the card on the value. It is the seller of the cards obligation to establish the value of the card on their own. If he asked me what it is worth, that is a different story. To low ball him at that point would be a dishonest thing to do.

I once sold a Brooklyn Dodgers item to a dealer at a show. I showed the piece to him and he offered me $500. I was thrilled to get that amount. I watched him later sell it for $1,000. I was happy for both of us. Should I have expected him to offer me the $1,000 in the first place?

Jeff

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by rocarroll

Since the card being presented by the seller is professionally graded then he should be some what educated on cards and values.

Just to be clear, in the poll description I said that the card is shown to the dealer in raw format, and not graded.

It seems that for many the issue may turn on how the seller presented the card to the dealer. Did he say, "I'll take $50 for the card." Or did he say, "What would you pay for the card?"

For me, this is such a specific rarity in collecting that I would educate the seller either way. And I think most dealers that I frequent would say the same thing. But, I also think a lot of dealers would just give the guy the $50, or give a low-ball offer to gauge the seller's awareness of the market.

[ullmandds]

this discussion is kinda interesting...as in the "olden" days...dealers made their livings "taking advantage" of unknowing customers. yet NOW...it seems that now it is the "dealers" responsibility to educate the consigner/walk-in/seller.

I'm not sure how I feel about this?

personally I have always been an advocate of knowledge is power...and it's one thing to be evaluating a babe ruth or ty cobb card...that most will know is valuable or can easily be looked up...but a card like this...not so much!?

[glchen]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

...It seems that for many the issue may turn on how the seller presented the card to the dealer. Did he say, "I'll take $50 for the card." Or did he say, "What would you pay for the card?"
...

I think what often happens is that the person comes to a dealer's table with the card and says, "I want to sell this card." The dealer says: "How much do you want for it?" The person says: "$50." Dealer says: "Here are two $20's and a $10. Thanks for your business."

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

He who has the Gold makes the rules?

Sure, ok.

I was thinking more along the lines of - if I had that card and brought it in to a dealer, how would I want to be treated by the dealer?

[midmo]

.

[vintagetoppsguy]

For anybody that thinks the dealer has an obligation to educate the seller, let's turn the situation around. If you were buying the same card from a dealer and he had it marked at $50, would you tell him you think it's worth $3K (just throwing that number out there) and offer him more, or would you just pay his $50 asking price?

I'm just curious how you answer the question when the scenario if flipped.

[Bored5000]

This thread makes me think it would an interesting case study for someone take a card like the one shown to a major show and see how often a seller would be taken advantage of vs. the other options.

[t206trader]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

For anybody that thinks the dealer has an obligation to educate the seller, let's turn the situation around. If you were buying the same card from a dealer and he had it marked at $50, would you tell him you think it's worth $3K (just throwing that number out there) and offer him more, or would you just pay his $50 asking price?

I'm just curious how you answer the question when the scenario if flipped.

I think the difference is the dealer IS an expert on the subject matter. If they aren't, they stand to lose money and go out of business. Does a buyer have an obligation to do research, yes. Still, who could respect someone who took advantage of someone else who didn't have ANY knowledge of what they had. While it seems easy for most of us to access prices via ebay or auctions this is not true for some of the general public who have never even accessed ebay. I think that if the individual approaches and has no idea what they have, the dealer owes a moral obligation to at least inform the seller. Anything less seems at the very least sheisty.

[Laxcat]

Depends on the dealer. If he/she has always tried to lowball me on everything I have for sale, then the answer is no. If the dealer is someone that helps others or does charity stuff for kids etc, yes I tell them it's worth more than $50.

If it comes to my table I will try to tell them what it is worth or find someone that does know. It would be out of my price range if it was a 3k card. My reputation as a dealer would be worth more to me than making that $2950.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

For anybody that thinks the dealer has an obligation to educate the seller, let's turn the situation around. If you were buying the same card from a dealer and he had it marked at $50, would you tell him you think it's worth $3K (just throwing that number out there) and offer him more, or would you just pay his $50 asking price?

I'm just curious how you answer the question when the scenario if flipped.

Some interesting comments all around.

I went with the "educate the buyer and offer a bit less than a recent sale" option.
But I could just as easily have gone with the "tell them about some auction houses" option.
If I were a dealer the choice between the two would depend on whether the card was a good fit with my inventory and if I had enough on hand to make a reasonable offer.
I might also refer a seller to another dealer who'd be a better buyer, or possibly to a particular collector if they were there.


As far as what I'd do from the opposite side of the table, that to me is different. Some random person who has a card or cards to sell might have a hard time finding enough information to have a decent idea what they have, unless the card is an easy one to identify like most mainstream postwar cards.

A dealer on the other hand should have the knowledge to at least know if something is "special" or not. And enough sense to look it up. So if it was on a dealers table for $50 yes, I'd buy it. (Making a handful of exceptions for dealers who I've known long enough to be closer to friends than just someone I do business with - But it's rare that I know something they don't) Overall it's a bit more complex when it's a dealer.

I have bought some stamps from dealers on Ebay who are fairly advanced and should have known what they were selling but didn't take the time.
One very advanced dealer I asked about stuff like that told me that for the difference in price he'd get on specific items I'd bought (Not from him) he couldn't be bothered to look up the special varieties. The time to become a specialist would be too costly. Note, this is a guy who typically has stuff in inventory in the mid 5 figures, so learning about the stamp with a $2K catalog value that there's only a handful known genuinely isn't worth his time.

I've also known dealers like someone else mentioned who thought their escapades in seriously lowballing people showed their smarts or something. I didn't avoid buying from them, but did make the rounds of their shops a couple times a year. They made their own mistakes......

Steve B

[ibuysportsephemera]

For those posting that they think that the dealer has an obligation to inform...I call BS. If you are "stupid" enough to take a card that you know nothing about to a card show and sell it to the first dealer you approach, you deserve to be low balled.

Sorry to be so "rude" about this, but in today's age of information (on your phone, computer, tv, etc.) there is no excuse other than laziness for not being informed.

Jeff

[travrosty]

That's not true.

[Laxcat]

Jeff- that sounds like projection.
That makes all dealers sound like crooks. That has been the general view on all collectible dealers since the dawn of time. I take offense to it. I watched my father do honest business for over 25 years. I mimic what I saw.

I recently started setting up at shows by myself. I had a great conversation with someone that I just met about postwar errors, blank backs, off register cards and the such. He browsed my table for some Twins stuff and found a quite tough modern era error that I had priced at $1. He informed of the rarity and told me to be sure not to sell it for $1.

This stuff happens. We just all need to do it. I think it would do wonders for our reputation(s) and perhaps bring more people to the collecting world.

Steve- I agree with everything you said.

[SAllen2556]

The sports memorabilia business is completely unregulated. As long as it is, the answer will almost always be “feign indifference”. There’s too little risk compared to the reward. This is brought to light and discussed on an almost daily basis right here - gratefully I might add. Everything from fakes on eBay to shilling to even trimming the most famous card of all time - the reward almost always outweighs the risk.

Last card show I went to, I saw two trimmed cards in the first 10 minutes. I told the dealers who "feigned ignorance". What's the risk to the dealer? Like I'm gonna call a cop over a trimmed card at a show?

I actually don’t know what I’d do. I’d like to think I’d be honest, but…….

I can say, however, I would never hesitate to rip off a dealer- as if! Sorry.

[midmo]

.

[ibuysportsephemera]

I am in no way saying be dishonest. I don't conduct my business that way at all. I was probably too broad in my last statement. Every circumstance is different and it really depends how the situation plays out.

I echo David's question above...As a buyer, if you see an item that is being sold by a dealer (who is a total stranger) way under value...do you offer him or her more money? I am sure that the answer is probably no for most (if you were being totally honest).

Jeff

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

Jeff- that sounds like projection.
That makes all dealers sound like crooks. That has been the general view on all collectible dealers since the dawn of time. I take offense to it. I watched my father do honest business for over 25 years. I mimic what I saw.

I recently started setting up at shows by myself. I had a great conversation with someone that I just met about postwar errors, blank backs, off register cards and the such. He browsed my table for some Twins stuff and found a quite tough modern era error that I had priced at $1. He informed of the rarity and told me to be sure not to sell it for $1.

This stuff happens. We just all need to do it. I think it would do wonders for our reputation(s) and perhaps bring more people to the collecting world.

Steve- I agree with everything you said.

Matt...I am not advocating ripping someone off at all. Under the scenario that is presented, isn't it the buyers obligation to shop around with many dealers to get the best offer? Assuming that all the dealers are not standing together, some will be helpful and others not so much. If the buyer does his due diligence, the not so honest dealer will never have a shot at the card because there will be someone else who treats the seller of the card more fairly and probably still gets a heck of a deal.

Jeff

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'm not sure why it's different when the situation is reversed. A couple years ago, there was a board member that picked up a T206 Brown OM back (from a PWCC auction) for about $51.

Here is the original thread (save yourself a lot of reading and pick up from post #30).

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=173902

Post #85 is where the board member comes forward as the buyer.

If you're going to inform an uneducated seller about the value of a card, does it matter if that seller is PWCC (the Brown OM back), or a relative of a deceased collector? I really see no difference. And I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer, but I find it interesting how people justify things based on the roles of who the buyer/seller is.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm not sure why it's different when the situation is reversed. A couple years ago, there was a board member that picked up a T206 Brown OM back (from a PWCC auction) for about $51.

Here is the original thread (save yourself a lot of reading and pick up from post #30).

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=173902

Post #85 is where the board member comes forward as the buyer.

If you're going to inform an uneducated seller about the value of a card, does it matter if that seller is PWCC (the Brown OM back), or a relative of a deceased collector? I really see no difference. And I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer, but I find it interesting how people justify things based on the roles of who the buyer/seller is.

+1

[ullmandds]

i mean just last week the board was applauding a chap for "stealing" a t206 starr w/drum back at an antique store...shouldn't he have informed the seller????

[drcy]

I think in some areas, if not everywhere, it's illegal for a knowledgeable dealer to deceive a uninformed person in order to buy something too cheap, I believe there was such a case involving an Antiques Roadshow civil war expert. Got the very rare and valuable items cheap by deceiving the owner into believing the were worth much less.

In general, I think you should give a fair deal-- though a fair deal can certainly can include room for profit for you. I'm not expecting dealers to run a charity.

I also think there is a distinct difference when the seller already has a sales price and when he/she asks you for the value.

I also assume this poll is about total beginners off the turnip truck (or even not even beginners because they don't collect but found something), not antique stores who are literally licensed professionals and set the prices. What to do at an antique store or dealer's booth would be a separate poll.

[rocarroll]

Probably best to have a nice will in place outlying everything you have and what the value of it is and what to do with it. If you don't, a shady card dealer is the least of your worries. Getting it probated through court will cost you a whole hell of a lot more than mom losing a $100 on a graded card. If you don't take care of your affairs properly that's on you.

Originally Posted by midmo

As someone who has had a couple deaths in the family this year (and had to deal with old items I knew nothing about), I just hope I don't get hit by a bus tomorrow and my mother (who knows nothing about cards and barely uses the internet) doesn't get taken advantage by some of you guys just because she shows up somewhere with a bunch of graded cards. That's pretty weak in my opinion.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

For anybody that thinks the dealer has an obligation to educate the seller, let's turn the situation around. If you were buying the same card from a dealer and he had it marked at $50, would you tell him you think it's worth $3K (just throwing that number out there) and offer him more, or would you just pay his $50 asking price?

I'm just curious how you answer the question when the scenario if flipped.

I'm with you on this Dave.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i mean just last week the board was applauding a chap for "stealing" a t206 starr w/drum back at an antique store...shouldn't he have informed the seller????

Absolutely not. If you're selling you'd better know what you're selling. Especially an antique/pawn shop.

[Kevin.Shenker]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I an surprised how many people have responded "Feign ignorance and buy the card for under $100."

Knowing that names are not published in a poll, can drastically alter peoples truthfulness in their responses.